Pope Francis donates $500,000 to migrants at US border

[Hoosier-Daddy]

I’m kinda serious. I wont happen but it should. The Pope advocates a world without borders. And he rightfully recognizes that these people are so desperate that they risk their lives to get here. 500,000 for supplies at the border does nothing to help these people escape the plight of the poor. The answer I propose has historical merit, ask Spain. So no enforceable borders means a common rule of law and political system must be installed. I’m all for expantion. Historically speaking I’m shocked it hasn’t happened.

 

[Hoosier-Daddy]

Dan, that’s crazy! Lol. The Pope as head of state is making a political move. You and I disagree with it. But it has NOTHING to do with the faith I have or my choice to back my country. Popes will come and go, they always have. The faith will remain forever.

This is not even close to making you choose between faith and country. BUT Dan, if that day ever comes, you chose faith EVERY time.

 

[13pollitos]

The reason I opened this post was to attempt to understand. I did ask that we stop debating on another thread, I did not mean that we had to never speak again. I do apologize for losing sight of the fact that on a public board people can contribute.

It is not the gospel that is political. It is the way people apply the gospel messages without logic or without taking into account circumstances or without refusing to acknowledge that life is complex. People take a message or messages, form an opinion, and dig their heels in. They don’t allow for the idea that yes, charity requires care but also charity requires seeking a better path. Then people will start to see anyone that isn’t 100% in agreement as their enemy. That is not charitable at all!

This is what I am trying to move past. Real people are suffering and dying. They need a better way, not just some tents and blankets in a foreign country that in many spots is more dangerous than Syria. But people have taken sides and no one is able to step back to listen. Instead accusations are hurled, such as Only one side is willing to pray or provide or one side wants ISIS to take us over. This is wrong and not charity. It isn’t loving our neighbor.

You have asked on a couple threads questions that I have answered for you. You have not answered the same questions for me. If you choose not to that is ok. But if I saw you as an enemy, I would not have attempted to answer any of them for you. I don’t want to fight a political battle against the very people that should be working together. I want us to find understanding so that the path God intends is illuminated. I am sorry if we are only talking past each other. I truly am. I harbor no ill will towards you or any other poster.

 

[13pollitos]

Ok. Now we are getting somewhere. Thanks for sharing this.

I disagree with no borders. Cultures and languages are lost and fighting escalates at least initially. I do worry that is what some people want though.

 

[blackforest]

I did ask that we stop debating on another thread, I did not mean that we had to never speak again.

So I now have your permission to resume speaking? Just kidding. It’s beyond obvious that I speak my mind regardless.

I don’t want you getting frustrated and trying to shut me off by implying that I don’t get a say because I didn’t scale the fence like your husband. That’s like saying that men are not allowed to articulate a pro-life stance because they’re not women.

It is not the gospel that is political. It is the way people apply the gospel messages without logic or without taking into account circumstances or without refusing to acknowledge that life is complex.

The issue is politically complex but morally simple. When people have basic and reasonable needs for food and shelter, we Catholics step up to the plate. It’s not optional, it’s not political, it’s not to be overthought. It is a Scriptural and Magisterial commandment.

At no point in the Gospel did Christ place those receiving His care under any kind of litmus test. “You’re here legally right?” “I’d love to heal you but let me first make sure I’m not enabling you first.”

This is what I am trying to move past. Real people are suffering and dying. They need a better way, not just some tents and blankets in a foreign country that in many spots is more dangerous than Syria.

You realize they LEFT a dangerous country, right? You realize that they’re goal is safety, right? And hopefully you realize that their greatest impediment to safety and the entire reason they’re in tents is the Trump administration.

You have asked on a couple threads questions that I have answered for you. You have not answered the same questions for me.

I’ve been cautious about whether or not to reply to your posts, but I suppose I can give it another shot. What questions would you like me to address?

The Pope advocates a world without borders.

This is simply not true.

 

[Feanor2]

Add to that the fears of loss of “culture” and “way of life”, which drive so many in their diastase for those who look different or come from different places.

 

[13pollitos]

So I now have your permission to resume speaking? Just kidding. It’s beyond obvious that I speak my mind regardless.

I don’t want you getting frustrated and trying to shut me off by implying that I don’t get a say because I didn’t scale the fence like your husband. That’s like saying that men are not allowed to articulate a pro-life stance because they’re not women.

That is inaccurate. You are misconstruing things

The issue is politically complex but morally simple. When people have basic and reasonable needs for food and shelter, we Catholics step up to the plate. It’s not optional, it’s not political, it’s not to be overthought. It is a Scriptural and Magisterial commandment.

At no point in the Gospel did Christ place those receiving His care under any kind of litmus test. “You’re here legally right?” “I’d love to heal you but let me first make sure I’m not enabling you first.”

This nation provides public schools, medical care, protection from criminals, etc without regard for immigrant status. I agree that we are to provide care for those in need. As a family we do just that in many different ways. Even catholic charities and shelters have requirements that must be met before aid is rendered though.

You realize they LEFT a dangerous country, right? You realize that they’re goal is safety, right? And hopefully you realize that their greatest impediment to safety and the entire reason they’re in tents is the Trump administration.

Yes they left a bad place. That is why it is wrong to want them to go through a perilous journey to sit in a dangerous spot to see if they might get asylum. When Obama was president even Hispanic pastors were putting up ads and programs in Central America trying to discourage the trip, trying to keep unaccompanied children from going, encouraging families to stay together. Mexico is more dangerous now than it was then. This isn’t political, it is trying to keep people from a perilous trip that will not result in the promises they were told await for them.

 

[blackforest]

That is inaccurate. You are misconstruing things

Whatever you were trying to convey, I’d appreciate it if you wouldn’t make the discussion personal.

Even catholic charities and shelters have requirements that must be met before aid is rendered though.

As a former Catholic Charities employee, I never had to turn anyone away from our services. It would be a ridiculously rare situation. And even then, we’d make sure that someone else was there to meet their needs, e.g. treatment for substance abuse.

I can’t think of a single reason to deny people at the border access to food, water, and shelter. Indeed, it is a sin to do so.

Yes they left a bad place. That is why it is wrong to want them to go through a perilous journey to sit in a dangerous spot to see if they might get asylum.

So they should have stayed in a bad place? Don’t condemn their actions as “wrong” when this is not as black and white as you think. I, for one, can see where it might be worth the risk. Who am I to judge?

 

[13pollitos]

As a former Catholic Charities employee, I never had to turn anyone away from our services. It would be a ridiculously rare situation. And even then, we’d make sure that someone else was there to meet their needs, e.g. treatment for substance abuse.

I can’t think of a single reason to deny people at the border access to food, water, and shelter. Indeed, it is a sin to do so.

I am glad you never had to deny anyone services. That is not the experience of many people who have posted on this board in the past. All programs and charities have criteria that need to be met. I agree we should strive to give access to food and water to everyone, not just those at the border.

So they should have stayed in a bad place? Don’t condemn their actions as “wrong” when this is not as black and white as you think. I, for one, can see where it might be worth the risk. Who am I to judge?

And this is not even close to what was said. I am not the one that has pretended things are black and white

 

[blackforest]

I am glad you never had to deny anyone services. That is not the experience of many people who have posted on this board in the past.

I’m surprised. Catholic Charities would consider this unethical and likely grounds for firing somebody.

The most we would do is an outside referral if we couldn’t meet somebody’s needs or the service wasn’t offered at our agency.

I will add one exception: They have denied adoptions to LGBT couples. I’m not a fan of the decision, (our branch didn’t do adoptions), but it isn’t tantamount to denying somebody food, water, shelter, etc.

And this is not even close to what was said. I am not the one that has pretended things are black and white

Then I don’t understand what you want from these people. Remember, this is a problem of urgency. Do you want them to sit around in Honduras and wait until things get better? Do you want them to go South through Nicaragua and make Panama deal with them?

 

[NotCrazyDan]

What’s the right side of history? Encouraging people to make a dangerous trek across a desert to swarm another country’s border? My politics ARE based on my faith, to a great degree. It’s my faith in the CC that’s being undermined, not my faith as a Christian, though one is definitely influenced by the other, which is why it might be best for me to get out. I see the CC going the way of the Episcopal Church. Marxists wearing Christian clothing are prevalent.

 

[13pollitos]

I’m surprised. Catholic Charities would consider this unethical and likely grounds for firing somebody.

The most we would do is an outside referral if we couldn’t meet somebody’s needs or the service wasn’t offered at our agency.

I will add one exception: They have denied adoptions to LGBT couples. I’m not a fan of the decision, (our branch didn’t do adoptions), but it isn’t tantamount to denying somebody food, water, shelter, etc.

https://www.needhelppayingbills.com/html/catholic_charities_financial_a.html

From Catholic Charities link:

“Before any financial aid is offered, they will usually need to ensure people can get back on their feet after the funds have been paid out. As the emergency assistance for basic needs is very short term in nature, and all applicants need to show the ability to be self-sufficient. Some Catholic Charity services are also very limited in funding capacity. Other resources offered are listed below, or find additional information on high demand services, such as help with rent payments.”

Random organizations:

https://www.mfhinc.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/ELIGIBILITY-CRITERIA-FOR-FOOD-PANTRY-RECIPIENTS.pdf

SNAP Eligibility | USDA-FNS?

https://www.masslegalhelp.org/homelessness/emergency-assistance/advocacy-guide/10-can-you-be-denied

All agencies have criteria to be met. They have too or they would run out of help to give

 

[13pollitos]

Then I don’t understand what you want from these people. Remember, this is a problem of urgency. Do you want them to sit around in Honduras and wait until things get better? Do you want them to go South through Nicaragua and make Panama deal with them?

I have not asked for a single thing “from these people”. I have asked for fellow Catholics and advocacy groups to stop encouraging people to risk their lives for rumors and lies of a promised land. I have asked for fellow Catholics and advocacy groups to send support straight to people in need, Improving the lives of people in their homes instead.

Even the aid groups and migration organizers admit the majority of migrants are economic migrants. People who meet eligibility (there’s that word again) are able to apply for refugee status already. Economic migrants that are helped in tangible ways to remain in their communities with their families are less likely to migrate. That is why so many times half a family stays put and the others travel north. The ones able to make it to the US improve the lives of the ones left behind. For instance, sending shoes so little kids have them. Sending toys for día de niños. Sending feminine hygiene products so girls don’t drop out of school. People can send them directly to someone in a village to be distributed.

An added benefit to helping people in their homes is children have both parents. They have support from their extended families, surrounded by their cultures and language. The kids are able to get an education with support and with an education they will be empowered to make a difference in their countries. That is how real change happens.

 

[blackforest]

I’m saying the same thing as you. We just don’t turn anyone AWAY. A referral is assisting people. Pope Francis can help and is helping people at the border. And God bless him for it! But this is a rabbit trail from my original point.

When people have basic and reasonable needs for food and shelter, we Catholics step up to the plate. It’s not optional, it’s not political, it’s not to be overthought. It is a Scriptural and Magisterial commandment.

I have not asked for a single thing “from these people”. I have asked for fellow Catholics and advocacy groups to stop encouraging people to risk their lives for rumors and lies of a promised land.

Pollitos, I don’t think you understand the urgency that they’re facing. They have to do SOMETHING. They can’t just sit in their homes playing card games while waiting for people to murder them . . . or for some benevolent outsiders to “address the root causes.”

Honduras is dangerous. And yes, Mexico is dangerous. These countries rank among the most dangerous in the world. Hondurans must leave their dangerous country and cross other dangerous ones to make it to safety.

They’re “encouraged” to get out of there because they feel unsafe.

I have asked for fellow Catholics and advocacy groups to send support straight to people in need, Improving the lives of people in their homes instead.

Our Pope is sending money to those in need, even if you disapprove of their location.

 

[13pollitos]

Pollitos, I don’t think you understand the urgency that they’re facing.

I do understand. It is something I have lived. It is the story of most of my friends and many in my family.

 

[13pollitos]

The part that is the hardest for me to reconcile is the partnership with criminal organizations. It is immoral to pay for the services of a human trafficker, yet the migrants are spend thousands of dollars doing just that. From the article I posted yesterday:

“The attack against priests is not a persecution,” Father Sotelo said. “It is something more dangerous.”

“Organized crime is not just drug trafficking,” he clarified.

“There are many aspects: human trafficking and trafficking in migrants, weapons and organs … ultimately, the trafficking of power. The assassination of priests is linked to this organized crime, which aims to stifle the pastoral work of the priesthood in the communities where it is carried out.” (bolding mine)

And the article again in case it was missed

http://m.ncregister.com/daily-news/why-is-mexico-the-deadliest-place-to-be-a-priest

These types of migrations are making things more dangerous for everyone including priests. Coyotes use social media and radio ads to pick up clients. They make it known when the next caravan is leaving.

I love Latin America. The indigenous peoples in the region are the ones suffering the most because it always is hardest on the poor. Children are lured into these criminal organizations because they have no intact family to guide them. The kids either grow up to also leave the area or they find a way to have that security while staying. The criminals are killing priests because they speak out against them. And we give power to the criminals every time we tell people to get out however they can.

Hondurans Can apply for refugee status from their home country or from Costa Rica. I can not say for sure other countries can I just know several Hondurans that have come as refugees. So it goes back to criteria. If the criteria is met, they qualify. Otherwise they need to wait.

 

[billsherman]

Besides you @billsherman who else participating or lurking in this discussion is doing anything - anything!! - for these people camped out at the border? Is anyone sending monetary or in-kind donations?

I appreciate the plug, but I’m fairly certain it isn’t the case. Fortunately many, many people do contribute lots. Pope Francis and the Catholic Church have been among the few powerful allies migrants have.

 

[billsherman]

Add to that the fears of loss of “culture” and “way of life”, which drive so many in their diastase for those who look different or come from different places.

It’s to think saying something like that isn’t just a dog whistle for white supremacy. I mean, the US’s immigration policy is built on the explicit goal of keeping the US a white nation. In a recent court filing the Department of Justice relied heavily on the comically racist Ping decision, so it’s still a real thing.

I’m sure some people who say things like that aren’t aware of the white supremacist connotations, but they should then stop saying them. If I’m not mistaken, I think Pope Francis has also condemned this type of talk.

 

[13pollitos]

Immigrants lose their culture. My poor parents wanted to keep us Bolivian but how is that to happen in the US? I may have read that other post wrong but the first thing I thought of was seeing my parents struggle with their desire to go home and their knowledge that we would never fit in there. I see the same problems with my kids. Some segments of the US do not accept people holding on to parts of their culture but more often the second generation (first when they are brought here young like I was) gets caught between cultures instead. It is nearly impossible to belong completely in any culture so we end up sort of making our own. Either way it is a loss of culture and language all the way around. My Spanish “sounds funny” to native speakers and my English is accented as well. I don’t speak my father’s first language. My children don’t know my husband’s first language. Most of my children hardly know any language besides English. Communicating with family requires translation. These are the real everyday challenges leaving your home creates. Family ties are lost. I haven’t been to Bolivia since my grandparents died. I don’t even know my extended family anymore. There is a real loss of culture, history and language. Those things need to be acknowledged.

 

[blackforest]

We get that it’s a dangerous trek. Migrants can be and are trafficked, (although I already linked upthread to show that most trafficking victims are either already in the U.S. or brought in legally). It’s horrible all around. They’re taking the risk with the goal of reaching a safe place.

Immigrants lose their culture. My poor parents wanted to keep us Bolivian but how is that to happen in the US?

This is very much true. The melting pot is real. I’ve watched it unfold before my eyes with the refugees I’ve worked with, as their children quickly pick up English and start translating for the parents, listening to American pop music, using American slang, etc. Our entire nation is what it is because of the eclectic mix of food, traditions, and even words that made it.

I think what @Feanor2 was expressing is that the some of the native-born fear that immigrants will threaten their way of life. This mentality dates back to a time when those “dirty Catholics” were coming from Poland, Italy, and Ireland, and those “dirty Jews” were coming over from Russia and Europe. Some people feared the Vatican would take over the U.S.

These days, there’s a stigma on expressing racism and prejudice openly. But it doesn’t mean that racism and prejudice no longer exist; people just no longer overtly own these sentiments.