Pope Francis drives a wedge between Catholic Church, GOP

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JimmyG88 said:
I wouldn’t seek to say that the NHS is anything other than the proud product of British Socialism. Pope Leo (a man who never exchanged a word with his coachman in 25 years) was a gentile noble and very much a product of his time. It must however be remembered that he supported the rights of workers to join a Union (a principle not universally supported on the right) and that he also said:
'The richer class have many ways of shielding themselves, and stand less in need of help from the State; whereas the mass of the poor have no resources of their own to fall back upon, and must chiefly depend upon the assistance of the State. And it is for this reason that wage-earners, since they mostly belong in the mass of the needy, should be specially cared for and protected by the government.
I’m sure that we can find supporting quotes ad infinitum.
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Aborted babies incinerated to heat UK hospitals **
The bodies of thousands of aborted and miscarried babies were incinerated as clinical waste, with some even used to heat hospitals, an investigation has found.
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Ten NHS trusts have admitted burning foetal remains alongside other rubbish while two others used the bodies in ‘waste-to-energy’ plants which generate power for heat.
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telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/10717566/Aborted-babies-incinerated-to-heat-UK-hospitals.html
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Story has been all over, also many stories about failures, maybe the system is improving but it has had great failures as well.
 
Tigg said:
When we assent to the teachings of the Church we do it by use of both grace and reason. In the process of development then, desiring to please God and being faithful to the sacraments and Mass, we grow toward things godly, and we become stronger; there is a deepening level of trust and an increase in the theological virtues given to us at baptism. In the “leading” then, I find it essential that there be a continuity of those things that originally shaped my faith formation - that nothing threaten the original foundation in truth. This is the journey and our political preferences cannot help but reflect the spiritual reality.
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Isn’t this a moral issue
 
JimmyG88 said:
I wouldn’t seek to say that the NHS is anything other than the proud product of British Socialism. Pope Leo (a man who never exchanged a word with his coachman in 25 years) was a gentile noble and very much a product of his time. It must however be remembered that he supported the rights of workers to join a Union (a principle not universally supported on the right) and that he also said:
'The richer class have many ways of shielding themselves, and stand less in need of help from the State; whereas the mass of the poor have no resources of their own to fall back upon, and must chiefly depend upon the assistance of the State. And it is for this reason that wage-earners, since they mostly belong in the mass of the needy, should be specially cared for and protected by the government.
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Rerum Novarum cannot be read solely as a product of its time. JPII surely didn’t see it that way.*His words *[in Rerum Novarum] deserve to be re-read attentively: “To remedy these wrongs (the unjust distribution of wealth and the poverty of the workers), the Socialists encourage the poor man’s envy of the rich and strive to do away with private property, contending that individual possessions should become the common property of all…; but their contentions are so clearly powerless to end the controversy that, were they carried into effect, the working man himself would be among the first to suffer. They are moreover emphatically unjust, for they would rob the lawful possessor, distort the functions of the State, and create utter confusion in the community”. The evils caused by the setting up of this type of socialism as a State system — what would later be called “Real Socialism” — could not be better expressed. (JPII Centesimus Annus - 1991)
I’m sure that we can find supporting quotes ad infinitum.
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Me, perhaps; we, perhaps not so much.

Ender
 
Ender said:
Rerum Novarum cannot be read solely as a product of its time. JPII surely didn’t see it that way.*His words *[in Rerum Novarum] deserve to be re-read attentively: “To remedy these wrongs (the unjust distribution of wealth and the poverty of the workers), the Socialists encourage the poor man’s envy of the rich and strive to do away with private property, contending that individual possessions should become the common property of all…; but their contentions are so clearly powerless to end the controversy that, were they carried into effect, the working man himself would be among the first to suffer. They are moreover emphatically unjust, for they would rob the lawful possessor, distort the functions of the State, and create utter confusion in the community”. The evils caused by the setting up of this type of socialism as a State system — what would later be called “Real Socialism” — could not be better expressed. (JPII Centesimus Annus - 1991)
Me, perhaps; we, perhaps not so much.

Ender
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The premise is incorrect. Socialists do not advocate a politics of envy
 
JimmyG88 said:
The premise is incorrect. Socialists do not advocate a politics of envy
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I am curious. Is this really the first time you became aware that the Church categorically condemns socialism in all its forms? Whether it is based on envy or not is irrelevant. as the Church points out it has never worked and always hurt the people .
 
The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings. The inherent virtue of Socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.
  • Winston Churchill, speech in the House of Commons (22 October 1945)
  • Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy.
  • Winston Churchill, speech at the Scottish Unionist Conference, Perth, Scotland (28 May 1948)
 
His words [in Rerum Novarum] deserve to be re-read attentively: “To remedy these wrongs (the unjust distribution of wealth and the poverty of the workers), the Socialists encourage the poor man’s envy of the rich and strive to do away with private property, contending that individual possessions should become the common property of all.”
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This is communism, no? Individual possessions becoming the common property of all describes communism and not socialism. ??
 
estesbob said:
I am curious. Is this really the first time you became aware that the Church categorically condemns socialism in all its forms? Whether it is based on envy or not is irrelevant. as the Church points out it has never worked and always hurt the people .
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I have met lots of American people who share your views. Isnt the apostolic life socialist? Everything in common, no money or property. Stark compared to what I’m talking about
 
estesbob said:
2425 The Church has rejected the totalitarian and atheistic ideologies associated in modem times with “communism” or “socialism.” She has likewise refused to accept, in the practice of “capitalism,” individualism and the absolute primacy of the law of the marketplace over human labor. Regulating the economy solely by centralized planning perverts the basis of social bonds; regulating it solely by the law of the marketplace fails social justice, for “there are many human needs which cannot be satisfied by the market.” Reasonable regulation of the marketplace and economic initiatives, in keeping with a just hierarchy of values and a view to the common good, is to be commended.
» Enter the Catechism at this paragraph*

Church categorically rejects socialism and communism. She also rejects unfettered capitalism .
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Thank you. No argument here. 😉 Ah, cafeteria Catholics, what a happy, numerous bunch we are. Cheers all!
 
JimmyG88 said:
I have met lots of American people who share your views. Isnt the apostolic life socialist? Everything in common, no money or property. Stark compared to what I’m talking about
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No the apostolic life was not socialistic. The Church has condemned socialism in all its forms. Its not an “American” thing. its the teaching of the Church
 
estesbob said:
The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings. The inherent virtue of Socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.
  • Winston Churchill, speech in the House of Commons (22 October 1945)
  • Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy.
  • Winston Churchill, speech at the Scottish Unionist Conference, Perth, Scotland (28 May 1948)
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I think I should point out to you that quoting a speech given to Catholic hating ‘scottish unionists’ by Winston Churchill who deployed the military onto the streets to intimidate strikers does not really serve to make any point to me whatsoever. I mean he would say that wouldn’t he. The minute that the British people could vote after WW2 they voted him out and voted in a socialist government. That democratic socialism
 
Crossbones said:
The 2000 Republican Party Platform contains
“Therefore, we reaffirm our support for a constitutional amendment to require a balanced budget.”

From that, one might conclude that a Republican President will avoid deficit spending.

Year Federal Deficit (- indicates a surplus)
2000 -236.24
2001 -128.23
2002 157.75
2003 377.59
2004 412.73
2005 318.35
2006 248.18
2007 160.71
2008 458.55

Maybe not then.
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One of the big lies that the republican party has perpetuated is that it is the party of fiscal responsibility. One of the reasons that I rarely vote for republicans is that they are a big government party. For example, can any true conservative support socialist programs like SS and Medicare? I cannot see how.
 
estesbob said:
No the apostolic life was not socialistic. The Church has condemned socialism in all its forms. Its not an “American” thing. its the teaching of the Church
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Well what is it then. I have never advocated atheism. What is apostolic life then if all the means of production, shelter and food is held in common and finances controlled centrally.
 
Ender said:
That seems a naive conclusion, but surely the point is that whether the GOP introduces balanced budgets or not, neither condition is contrary to church doctrine. Still waiting for that example…

Ender
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No, it just is an argument that reading a party platform is a good indicator of what the policies of that party will be when they govern.
 
JimmyG88 said:
I think I should point out to you that quoting a speech given to Catholic hating ‘scottish unionists’ by Winston Churchill who deployed the military onto the streets to intimidate strikers does not really serve to make any point to me whatsoever. I mean he would say that wouldn’t he. The minute that the British people could vote after WW2 they voted him out and voted in a socialist government. That democratic socialism
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Argumentum ad hominen
 
Crossbones said:
No, it just is an argument that reading a party platform is a good indicator of what the policies of that party will be when they govern.
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The Democrat Party has enthusiastically implemented their support of Homosexual Marriage and Abortion. What have the republicans implemented from their platform that are contrary to Church teaching.?
 
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