Pope Francis faces church divided over doctrine, global poll of Catholics finds

[Mark121359]

You can dimiss these polls all you like, but the fact remains that a large number of Catholics who attend services regularly support intrinsic evils such as abortion, so-called SSM etc. There are nationally recognized operations who do a decent job of Catholic polling. Gallup, Pew, CARA, Marist among them. I’ve heard sermons from Fr. Wade Menezes, Fr. Bill Casey and Fr. Ben Cameron of the Fathers of Mercy comment on these sad facts. And I for one highly trust them and their views. I know that where I work, of the five Catholic co-workers who attend Mass regularly, ***all ***of them embrace so-called SSM, and three accept abortion and a women’s right to choose. All believe that contraceptives should be allowed. And all receive Holy Communion and see no conflict with their beliefs and Church teachings. All rarely if ever go to confession. Fr. Menezes described these poll numbers on the state of today’s Catholic as “appalling.” Fr. Casey added, it is “the reason the Church finds itself in the predicament it’s in.”

I’m somewhat reminded of the Bread of Life Discourse. When Jesus said to his disciples;
"Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him…And so it goes with many of today’s Catholics. They believe that the Church’s teachings on contraceptives, so-called SSM and abortion are also* “hard teachings”* and they say *"who can listen to them?” * And they feel that the Church has to bend to human weakness and today’s world views. But just as Jesus didn’t bend, and freely let the disciples choose to draw back and no longer walk with Him…so too the Church has to stay firm with her teachings and not give in to secular views. That’s why the synod this fall makes me nervous a little bit. Because God forbid, if somehow the Church were ever to relax any of her teachings, even just a little, then it truly would be safe to say…“Houston, we have a serious problem!”

---

Peace, Mark***

 

[rcwitness]

You can dimiss these polls all you like, but the fact remains that a large number of Catholics who attend services regularly support intrinsic evils such as abortion, so-called SSM etc. There are nationally recognized operations who do a decent job of Catholic polling. Gallup, Pew, CARA, Marist among them. I’ve heard sermons from Fr. Wade Menezes, Fr. Bill Casey and Fr. Ben Cameron of the Fathers of Mercy comment on these sad facts. And I for one highly trust them and their views. I know that where I work, of the five Catholic co-workers who attend Mass regularly, ***all ***of them embrace so-called SSM, and three accept abortion and a women’s right to choose. All believe that contraceptives should be allowed. And all receive Holy Communion and see no conflict with their beliefs and Church teachings. All rarely if ever go to confession. Fr. Menezes described these poll numbers on the state of today’s Catholic as “appalling.” Fr. Casey added, it is “the reason the Church finds itself in the predicament it’s in.”

I’m somewhat reminded of the Bread of Life Discourse. When Jesus said to his disciples;
"Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him…And so it goes with many of today’s Catholics. They believe that the Church’s teachings on contraceptives, so-called SSM and abortion are also* “hard teachings”* and they say *"who can listen to them?” * And they feel that the Church has to bend to human weakness and today’s world views. But just as Jesus didn’t bend, and freely let the disciples choose to draw back and no longer walk with Him…so too the Church has to stay firm with her teachings and not give in to secular views. That’s why the synod this fall makes me nervous a little bit. Because God forbid, if somehow the Church were ever to relax any of her teachings, even just a little, then it truly would be safe to say…“Houston, we have a serious problem!”

---

Peace, Mark***

I agree. It is similar to the Bread of Life discourse! Only worse! So, are these members who are in disagreement over Doctrine and support what the Church calls sinfull actually Catholic or are they “closet Protestants”?

I say they are receiving unworthy. Protestants, at least, do not receive the body and blood of the Lord while calling His Teachings false.

Michael

 

[tcjjmcf]

You can dimiss these polls all you like, but the fact remains that a large number of Catholics who attend services regularly support intrinsic evils such as abortion, so-called SSM etc. There are nationally recognized operations who do a decent job of Catholic polling. Gallup, Pew, CARA, Marist among them. I’ve heard sermons from Fr. Wade Menezes, Fr. Bill Casey and Fr. Ben Cameron of the Fathers of Mercy comment on these sad facts. And I for one highly trust them and their views. I know that where I work, of the five Catholic co-workers who attend Mass regularly, ***all ***of them embrace so-called SSM, and three accept abortion and a women’s right to choose. All believe that contraceptives should be allowed. And all receive Holy Communion and see no conflict with their beliefs and Church teachings. All rarely if ever go to confession. Fr. Menezes described these poll numbers on the state of today’s Catholic as “appalling.” Fr. Casey added, it is “the reason the Church finds itself in the predicament it’s in.”

I’m somewhat reminded of the Bread of Life Discourse. When Jesus said to his disciples;
"Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him…And so it goes with many of today’s Catholics. They believe that the Church’s teachings on contraceptives, so-called SSM and abortion are also* “hard teachings”* and they say *"who can listen to them?” * And they feel that the Church has to bend to human weakness and today’s world views. But just as Jesus didn’t bend, and freely let the disciples choose to draw back and no longer walk with Him…so too the Church has to stay firm with her teachings and not give in to secular views. That’s why the synod this fall makes me nervous a little bit. Because God forbid, if somehow the Church were ever to relax any of her teachings, even just a little, then it truly would be safe to say…“Houston, we have a serious problem!”

---

Peace, Mark***

You are absolutely right, one doesn’t need a poll/survey to see the 800 lb. guerrilla in the middle of the room, that is, the incredibly shrinking population of faithful Catholics (although if you are going to do something, do it right). The Church should be aggressively looking for effective ways to reach out and correct the many misconceptions embraced by these fallen away Catholics, but I suspect it is not the lack of knowing what to do but rather having the courage to do it. Right now it is the Laity that are leading the charge and the Clergy are leading from behind.

 

[FollowChrist34]

I don’t know that Christianity will ever genuinely transform everybody, or even most people - inside or outside the Church. Few are saved, many are lost - isn’t that the way it’s been since the time of the Apostles? Christ and his disciples are “not of this world” - they don’t fair very well in it. We are “hated,” yes? What’s interesting in our times is just how far the world has made its way into the Church.

I don’t think the intention of these surveys was to open a doctrine-changing dialogue within the Church, but I find it increasingly hard to believe that that won’t happen anyway.
Hopefully, this is a time for the authentic Church to renew and reveal itself on a much larger scale, as a redeeming force against secularity. I suspect that’s what Pope Francis has in mind.

 

[Tomdstone]

I know that where I work, of the five Catholic co-workers who attend Mass regularly, ***all ***of them embrace so-called SSM, and three accept abortion and a women’s right to choose. All believe that contraceptives should be allowed. And all receive Holy Communion and see no conflict with their beliefs and Church teachings.

Does that mean that the Roman Catholic Church should change its teaching on the use of contraceptives within marriage? Otherwise, aren’t a lot of people committing a mortal sin and not repenting? What are the consequences of dying with an unrepented mortal sin?

 

[rcwitness]

Does that mean that the Roman Catholic Church should change its teaching on the use of contraceptives within marriage? Otherwise, aren’t a lot of people committing a mortal sin and not repenting? What are the consequences of dying with an unrepented mortal sin?

If something is a sin, why would the Church say its not just because people dont repent of it?

If you are implying the Church is telling people they are going to hell for the use of contraceptions in marriage, you are surely mistaken.

The liability of commiting a mortal sin could be likened to Jesus’ remarks in Matt. 5:22

Peace
Michael

 

[McCall1981]

You are absolutely right, one doesn’t need a poll/survey to see the 800 lb. guerrilla in the middle of the room, that is, the incredibly shrinking population of faithful Catholics (although if you are going to do something, do it right). The Church should be aggressively looking for effective ways to reach out and correct the many misconceptions embraced by these fallen away Catholics, but I suspect it is not the lack of knowing what to do but rather having the courage to do it. Right now it is the Laity that are leading the charge and the Clergy are leading from behind.

What is it you think the Clergy lacks the courage to do?

 

[Tomdstone]

If you are implying the Church is telling people they are going to hell for the use of contraceptions in marriage, you are surely mistaken.

I thought that if you had committed a mortal sin, and died without repenting, it was Church teaching that you would go to hell? Or is that wrong? Please correct me, if it is wrong. I know that some people say that everyone goes to heaven, but I did not think that this was Church teaching. Also, is it a mortal sin to use contraceptives or the pill in marriage, even if the couple has several children and is facing financial difficulties?

 

[TRH1292]

I thought that if you had committed a mortal sin, and died without repenting, it was Church teaching that you would go to hell? Or is that wrong? Please correct me, if it is wrong. I know that some people say that everyone goes to heaven, but I did not think that this was Church teaching. Also, is it a mortal sin to use contraceptives or the pill in marriage, even if the couple has several children and is facing financial difficulties?

If you die in a state of mortal sin, you descend into Hell. Of course, it is not possible for us to really say if somebody has done so. But that is the truth of the matter.

 

[rcwitness]

I thought that if you had committed a mortal sin, and died without repenting, it was Church teaching that you would go to hell? Or is that wrong? Please correct me, if it is wrong. I know that some people say that everyone goes to heaven, but I did not think that this was Church teaching. Also, is it a mortal sin to use contraceptives or the pill in marriage, even if the couple has several children and is facing financial difficulties?

Is everyone who says, “you fool” to a brother going to hell?

I am not qualified to answer your question. The Church is very carefull not to place herself in the position of judging someone’s soul. Only God knows the heart of men, and is able to say they have rejected God for sin. The Church says using contraceptives and calling them good, to the point of rejecting what has been Taught by Jesus through His Church, without remorse until the end is liable to the consequences of sin that leads to death.

I am no priest, bishop or apostle
Michael

 

[Tomdstone]

Is everyone who says, “you fool” to a brother going to hell?

I don’t think that anyone would consider that to be serious or grave matter which is required for a mortal sin, unless you are seriously threatening the person with death or grave personal harm. I thought that if you die with an unforgiven venial sin, you would go to purgatory, and what you have described seems like a venial sin. However, the use of the contraceptive pill or ABC is different, because it involves grave matter, does it not? Even in the case of a large family, which is facing financial difficulties, would not the use of contraceptives be a mortal sin, provided there was sufficient reflection and consent? Is that the Catholic teaching, that it is a mortal sin to use ABC, or has it been changed?

 

[rcwitness]

I don’t think that anyone would consider that to be serious or grave matter which is required for a mortal sin, unless you are seriously threatening the person with death or grave personal harm. I thought that if you die with an unforgiven venial sin, you would go to purgatory, and what you have described seems like a venial sin. However, the use of the contraceptive pill or ABC is different, because it involves grave matter, does it not? Even in the case of a large family, which is facing financial difficulties, would not the use of contraceptives be a mortal sin, provided there was sufficient reflection and consent? Is that the Catholic teaching, that it is a mortal sin to use ABC, or has it been changed?

Again, even though I think you are asking in a genuine manner, Im not able to answer. Sorry.

My point was that in the same manner Jesus Christ tells us that calling someone a fool out of anger in Matt. 5:22 is liable to the fires of hell, so might someone who knowing that the Church has condemned contraceptives, then says in their heart, “I believe contraceptives to be good and my God would never say that!”, be placing their soul at risk.

John the Baptist said, “woe to those who call good evil, and evil good.”

Only God is able to determine if a person fully rejected Him over something sinfull.

The fact that the Church has condemned contraceptives tells me how danderous they are to our faith. They have the ability to warp our relationship with Jesus.

Peace
Michael

 

[ProVobis]

If you are implying the Church is telling people they are going to hell for the use of contraceptions in marriage, you are surely mistaken.

Have you read Humanae Vitae?

Or are papal documents to be ignored at your pleasure?

 

[rcwitness]

Have you read Humanae Vitae?

Or are papal documents to be ignored at your pleasure?

I have not.

No, they certainly are not to be ignored.

I have openly stated my inability to provide Church Teaching in regards to the question. My response you have quoted does not assume the intent, knowledge or state of remorse of the hypothetical persons practicing contraceptive sex. By all means, if you wish to share what the Church Teaches the judgement of a married couple using contraceptives would be, I am not going to rebuke you.

Peace
Michael

 

[HCTC]

t will be become obvious that I am not a theologian, but I am blessed with an abiding faith. I trust in The Lord. I do not lean on my own understanding, and I acknowledge Him in all ways.

The Spanish name Pilar originated in the miracle of the Virgin Mary’s appearance over a marble pillar and is an allusion to her as a pilar of the Church. In my humble opinion, when it comes to discerning the Will of God, the Holy Mother may be the second most important person in The Bible and the Annunciation may be the second most important miracle because it is the initiation of Jesus in human form.

“Many holy fathers (Sts. Jerome, Cyril, Ephrem, Augustine) say that the consent of Mary was essential to the redemption. It was the will of God, St. Thomas says (Summa III:30), that the redemption of mankind should depend upon the consent of the Virgin Mary. This does not mean that God in His plans was bound by the will of a creature, and that man would not have been redeemed, if Mary had not consented. It only means that the consent of Mary was foreseen from all eternity, and therefore was received as essential into the design of God.”

In my humble opinion, the consent of Mary demonstrates the God given free will of woman in the matter of procreation, and the Immaculate Conception demonstrates the Powerful Will of Almighty God. If God in His Almighty Power would choose not to impose pregnancy on the Mother of His Son, how can anyone impose pregnancy on any woman. Yet a woman of faith experiencing conception would with wisdom view that conception as a blessing from The Almighty, and respond as the Holy Mother, “Behold the handmaid of the Lord, be it done to me according to thy word.”

While I don’t know every objection that the Church has to the ordination of woman, the one of which I am aware is that there was no woman present at the Last Supper which was literally the first mass. However, it seems evident to me that the primary purpose of that event was to send the apostles out into the world to preach the Gospel and to build a Christian community. Given the social structure at the time, it would not have been acceptable for women to do that.

Over 2,000 years later, maybe it is time to take into consideration the Virgin Mary’s role in the Incarnation. Surely her faith demonstrates the appropriateness of women to be called in our time to the priesthood.

I wonder why the hierarchy of the Church does not look to the interactions between God Almighty and the Virgin Mary when charting the future of His Church and why, in light of God’s favor, they do not extend to the priesthood the contributions that women might make. I can only surmise that they do not recognize nor value the favor in which God Almighty held His handmaid Mary…

 

[mab23]

Am I correct in assuming this poll doesn’t distinguish between practising Catholics and Catholics in general, which could include people that were baptised but have never been in Church since? If this poll polled based on whether somebody identified as Catholic, it could be filled with Catholics who are not practising and therefore are likely to have very different views on i.e. contraception and homosexual marriage than practising Catholics and therefore the results of this poll might not be representative of practising Catholics.

agreed!

these polls are disheartening though and are even more reason us practicing Catholics should educate and inform our fellow Catholics on these issues

 

[davidv]

Every Pope, beginning with Peter, has faced division in the Church. Through it all the Church’s teachings have remained intact. Will there ever be a time on this prior to the second coming when there won’t be division? The key question is whether we allow this division to distract us from our goal of getting to heaven and bringing as many others as possible with us.

 

[Sy_Noe]

This is probably very true but it seems to be a circular (or chicken vs egg) argument as well. Maybe those who started disagreeing with what their pastors have told them stopped being practicing Catholics. I presume by “practicing” you mean church attendance at least every week.

Is weekly Mass attendance the only prerequisite to be practicing in your faith? Mark121359 stated all 5 of his Catholic co-workers attend Mass regularly but all favor SSM and contraception and more than half of them support a woman’s right to choose. Would they be considered practicing? Non-practicing? Practicing since they attend Mass regularly but dissenting?

 

[esieffe]

When beaches in South America are standing room only, to see the Pope, when the left fusses, when the right fusses, when people line up to see the Pope, when polls come out, when new commentators spin and shout… you know you are on to something pretty special!

God bless Pope Francis!

 

[ProVobis]

Is weekly Mass attendance the only prerequisite to be practicing in your faith? Mark121359 stated all 5 of his Catholic co-workers attend Mass regularly but all favor SSM and contraception and more than half of them support a woman’s right to choose. Would they be considered practicing? Non-practicing? Practicing since they attend Mass regularly but dissenting?

Fair point. There’s a continuum of “practicing” Catholics across the board vs a continuum of believers in all doctrines of the church. No two people are alike in everything.

That said, intuitively there should be a correlation between the two, but frankly I wouldn’t know how to measure it. And furthermore, what does the poll desire to prove anyway?