Pope Francis: healthcare is a 'universal right,' not a 'consumer good' [CWN]

[CWN_News]

Speaking to 9,000 people associated with the medical missionary organization Doctors with Africa, Pope Francis said that "health is not a consumer good, but rather a universal right, …

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[Michael_Mayo]

Speaking to 9,000 people associated with the medical missionary organization Doctors with Africa, Pope Francis said that "health is not a consumer good, but rather a universal right, …

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But who is to pay for it?

 

[gnjsdad]

In this, the Pope is reiterating Catholic teaching, as explicated in various Papal encyclicals (see, for instance, Laborem Exercens).

As such, Catholics are morally bound to accept this. This is not a matter of prudential judgment.

 

[Ridgerunner]

In this, the Pope is reiterating Catholic teaching, as explicated in various Papal encyclicals (see, for instance, Laborem Exercens).

As such, Catholics are morally bound to accept this. This is not a matter of prudential judgment.

Understood as a general principle.

But practical questions remain that are difficult to understand other than as prudential judgments. As the above poster queried, who is to pay for it? It’s never “free”.

Even more basic, what kind of care are we talking about? Is it to be totally free, no matter what, and is to be the absolute best, e.g., Mayo Clinic, M.D. Anderson, what? Or is it to be “local free clinic” kind of care, financed indifferently by something like Medicaid, local taxes, Dept of Indian Affairs, or donations?

 

[gnjsdad]

Understood as a general principle.

But practical questions remain that are difficult to understand other than as prudential judgments. As the above poster queried, who is to pay for it? It’s never “free”.

I agree. How it gets done is a matter of prudential judgment. But prudential judgment must be in conformity with the moral law.

 

[Neofight]

Not gonna set well with those in the cafeteria…in fact looks like a case is being made already for summary dismissal of the Pope’s thoughts.

 

[gnjsdad]

Not gonna set well with those in the cafeteria…in fact looks like a case is being made already for summary dismissal of the Pope’s thoughts.

That has been done by “conservative” and “liberal” American Catholics for generations.

 

[WJeffrey]

According to the article, it doesn’t conflict with American law or policy. Anyone is free to use an Emergency Room for health care. Basic health care needs are met for even the poorest citizen or illegal immigrant.

 

[Suudy]

I agree. How it gets done is a matter of prudential judgment. But prudential judgment must be in conformity with the moral law.

Who has said otherwise? Certainly Republicans do not think that healthcare be denied to anyone. The only disagreement between the Democrats and Republicans is how it is to get done.

The problem is that the Democrats run ads about pushing granny off a cliff or firing people so that their wives die of cancer to paint the Republicans as evil people wanting people to die rather than give them care. And no doubt the liberal media will cackle with glee at Papa Francis’ remarks and continue to push the narrative that the Republicans are evil by opposing the Pope (even though the Pope said nothing about the means).

 

[estesbob]

Not gonna set well with those in the cafeteria…in fact looks like a case is being made already for summary dismissal of the Pope’s thoughts.

He hasn’t said anything that any other Pope had not already said. Health care is a right-the best way to provide it is a matter of prudential judgement. But of course that will be ignored by those looking to rationalize their vote in support of evil. they will clam that since their preferred candidate supports Obamacare or Single payer health care they can vote them regardless of their support of unrestricted taxpayer funded abortion on demand.

 

[gnjsdad]

Who has said otherwise? Certainly Republicans do not think that healthcare be denied to anyone. The only disagreement between the Democrats and Republicans is how it is to get done.

Both Republicans and a substantial number of Democrats support a for-profit healthcare system, a system based ipso facto on an ability to pay. A system based on the ability to pay is NOT a system which supports healthcare as a universal human right. There are many many people who do not have the ability to pay for needed healthcare today. The political establishment (which includes both parties) is quite willing to let those people fall through the cracks, either by dying from lack of care or being saddled with crippling medical debt because they can’t afford insurance.

Suudy:

The problem is that the Democrats run ads about pushing granny off a cliff or firing people so that their wives die of cancer to paint the Republicans as evil people wanting people to die rather than give them care.

And the Republicans are willing to portray anyone who campaigns for real reform as catering to “moochers” and “freeloaders”. I am not impressed by political advertising.

Suudy:

And no doubt the liberal media will cackle with glee at Papa Francis’ remarks and continue to push the narrative that the Republicans are evil by opposing the Pope (even though the Pope said nothing about the means).

Au contraire…the Pope’s statements very much get to the heart of the means. Healthcare as a universal human right implies that the means, whatever they may be, MUST conform
to the moral law.

I don’t think the Pope has to come out and say that…or maybe he does, given the woeful lack of comprehension of relationship between means and ends on display in this country.

 

[Bataar]

I agree with the principle that people should have access to healthcare, but I don’t think it can be considered a right. Anything that requires the labor/assets/ability of someone else, isn’t a right

 

[RPRPsych]

But who is to pay for it?

Actually, if we’re talking basic health care, essential drugs and life-saving procedures, it isn’t all that expensive.

But factor in “lifestyle” procedures (such as obesity surgery or breast augmentation), sterilizations, contraception, abortion, Caesareans “for the heck of it”, surgeries “because the surgeon needs to keep in touch”, the use of expensive drugs with little evidence to back them, collusion with pharmaceutical and other industry elements, and you have (in the words of Professor Higgins) a ghastly mess.

Also: prevention can save a lot in terms of future cure. But try telling the tobacco, alcohol and food industries (not to mention the New Age leeches and “progressive” ideologies that facilitate the spread of STDs) about that.

The problem is that universal healthcare is feasible provided all the fat is trimmed. But that wouldn’t make anyone happy - except the patients and those physicians whose sense of ethics hasn’t been dulled yet.

 

[Crossbones]

He hasn’t said anything that any other Pope had not already said. Health care is a right-the best way to provide it is a matter of prudential judgement. But of course that will be ignored by those looking to rationalize their vote in support of evil. they will clam that since their preferred candidate supports Obamacare or Single payer health care they can vote them regardless of their support of unrestricted taxpayer funded abortion on demand.

Given the teachings of the Church, many Catholics may decide that the best way to provide the health care is through so-called socialized medicine programs. After all, studies suggest tens of thousands die from being uninsured.

 

[Suudy]

Both Republicans and a substantial number of Democrats support a for-profit healthcare system, a system based ipso facto on an ability to pay. A system based on the ability to pay is NOT a system which supports healthcare as a universal human right. There are many many people who do not have the ability to pay for needed healthcare today. The political establishment (which includes both parties) is quite willing to let those people fall through the cracks, either by dying from lack of care or being saddled with crippling medical debt because they can’t afford insurance.

Why does healthcare trump food, clothing, or shelter? Food is a for-profit system. So is clothing. So is housing. So, no, your claim that a “system based on the ability to pay is NOT a system which supports” any “universal human right.” If it were, then we should have universal food, clothing, and housing supplies, and cut out the private sector, no?

And the Republicans are willing to portray anyone who campaigns for real reform as catering to “moochers” and “freeloaders”. I am not impressed by political advertising.

Not a single Republican has stated that those in need are “moochers” or “freeloaders.” The issue has always been people gaming the system who are otherwise capable of providing for their own needs. This is true whether it is healthcare, housing, food, or any other necessity.

Au contraire…the Pope’s statements very much get to the heart of the means. Healthcare as a universal human right implies that the means, whatever they may be, MUST conform
to the moral law.

Again, who has said otherwise? The moral law does not require that universal rights be given away for free or provided only in a non-profit manner. The moral law only states that everyone has a universal right, but says nothing about how to preserve those rights.

I don’t think the Pope has to come out and say that…or maybe he does, given the woeful lack of comprehension of relationship between means and ends on display in this country.

Indeed. And is aptly demonstrated by those who think that free contraception is the best means to reduce the abortion rate, or forcing nuns to have contraceptive coverage is an acceptable means to reduce health care costs for women. Truly the disconnect between means and ends are those who completely ignore the means to get the end they want, which is almost always the left.

 

[Suudy]

Given the teachings of the Church, many Catholics may decide that the best way to provide the health care is through so-called socialized medicine programs. After all, studies suggest tens of thousands die from being uninsured.

And here’s another example of the ends justifying the means. If the studies are true that “tens of thousands die from being uninsured” that does not necessarily justify the means of a socialized system.

 

[Suudy]

And the Republicans are willing to portray anyone who campaigns for real reform as catering to “moochers” and “freeloaders”. I am not impressed by political advertising.

One other point. Which is worse? Accusing people of being “moochers” and “freeloaders”? Or accusing people of intentionally desiring the death of another?

The vitriol on the left is so deep and pronounced it dwarfs anything from the right.

 

[Crossbones]

And here’s another example of the ends justifying the means. If the studies are true that “tens of thousands die from being uninsured” that does not necessarily justify the means of a socialized system.

I would think this is left to prudential judgement on the best way to deliver what the Pope calls a right.

 

[estesbob]

Both Republicans and a substantial number of Democrats support a for-profit healthcare system, a system based ipso facto on an ability to pay. A system based on the ability to pay is NOT a system which supports healthcare as a universal human right. There are many many people who do not have the ability to pay for needed healthcare today. The political establishment (which includes both parties) is quite willing to let those people fall through the cracks, either by dying from lack of care or being saddled with crippling medical debt because they can’t afford insurance.

And the Republicans are willing to portray anyone who campaigns for real reform as catering to “moochers” and “freeloaders”. I am not impressed by political advertising.

Au contraire…the Pope’s statements very much get to the heart of the means. Healthcare as a universal human right implies that the means, whatever they may be, MUST conform
to the moral law.

I don’t think the Pope has to come out and say that…or maybe he does, given the woeful lack of comprehension of relationship between means and ends on display in this country.

As always in these discussions we are told to ignore what the Pope said and instead accept a posters personal interpretation of what he “meant”

 

[estesbob]

Given the teachings of the Church, many Catholics may decide that the best way to provide the health care is through so-called socialized medicine programs. After all, studies suggest tens of thousands die from being uninsured.

They may indeed-as I said the manner in which the health care should be provided is a matter of prudential judgment