Pope Francis: healthcare is a 'universal right,' not a 'consumer good' [CWN]

[JimR-OCDS]

And here’s another example of the ends justifying the means. If the studies are true that “tens of thousands die from being uninsured” that does not necessarily justify the means of a socialized system.

Using your logic, how do you justify a nation financing a military force ?

If defense is a right, why isn’t health care ?

Do we allow people to bleed to death or die from a heart attack, because its not their right to impose themselves on others, physically and financially ?

Jim

 

[Brendan]

I personally found it very enlightening that Pope Francis made those comments to Doctors with Africa.

I regularly do mission work in Africa, in fact, I just got back from a trip a few weeks ago.

This comment was directed at those who do work in the developing world for a very specific reason, that is where health care is really lacking.

On one of my visits to one of the villages in Tanzania, the local ‘health care’ was the first aid kit that the parish priest kept in his house. I assisted with the treatment of a 9 year old girl. I cleaned out the cut she had, and then Fr David applies super glue to close the wound.

What I am afraid of, is this call will be used to call for more health care spending in the Western countries. Even the poor in the developing countries have access to health care that most in the world could only dream of. In health care terms, we are the “1%'ers”, even the US poor can count themselves in the top 10%

My fear is that health care would be viewed as a government responsibility, where the rich countries provide health care, and then expect the poorer governments to do the same.

What is needed is for the faithful to support the Church in providing health care.

A great example of this is a project that I toured with one of the African bishops. It was the foundation of a hospital, single story, 50 beds. It was started by the local government 12 years ago, and then the project was cancelled. The foundation and support columns have sat unused for 10 years. The bishop has recently gotten approval to complete the project, but needs western support to do so.

What will the call be from the Pope’s statement, for more money to be spent in the US, Canada and Europe, or for the money for those who have nothing. Will in be a call for more government spending, or for support of the Church?

 

[Suudy]

I would think this is left to prudential judgement on the best way to deliver what the Pope calls a right.

Did I say otherwise?

 

[Crossbones]

Did I say otherwise?

No, it seemed that you were implying that those who felt socialized medicine is the way to go were wrong.

 

[Expatreprocedit]

The problem is that the Democrats run ads about pushing granny off a cliff .

I’ve never seen a Democratic ad like the one you describe.

On the other hand, I remember distinctly the summer of 2009 when there were hundreds of “Tea Party” rallies accusing President Obama of wanting to set up “death panels” to kill off older and sick people as part of the ACA. A few GOP politicians, e.g. Sarah Palin, also made this accusation.

 

[Tablefor9]

Using your logic, how do you justify a nation financing a military force ?

If defense is a right, why isn’t health care ?

Do we allow people to bleed to death or die from a heart attack, because its not their right to impose themselves on others, physically and financially ?

Jim

This is the kind of talk that clouds the discussion without addressing the real issues. Truly, no one in this country need “bleed to death or die of a heart attack unnecessarily”. Because of a law called the EMTALA act, ANYONE who presents to a hospital with an emergency condition or in active labor is legally entitled to stabilizing, lifesaving care without regard to ability to pay. That includes emergency heart procedures, surgeries to stop bleeding, the births of babies, etc.

The REAL problem in this country is that there are people who have insurance, but can’t afford the copays, the deductibles, or the out of pocket portions, which may add up to $10k+ per family per annum in many chronic illness cases. The ACA (Obamacare) has done NOTHING to improve this, in fact, has made it worse; people who couldn’t afford insurance before are either deeper in the hole with it and can’t afford to use it, or still don’t have it and will also be fined (taxed) for being poor.

As for socialized medicine, if it’s so wonderful, why do we in healthcare see medical tourists come here for cancer (and other) treatment they can’t get, or can’t get in time, at home?

My thoughts on healthcare have evolved a LOT in the 20 years since I became a nurse. Perhaps single payer is an answer, perhaps not, but rest assured, it’s no panacea without its own very major problems.

 

[Expatreprocedit]

But who is to pay for it?

A good way to start would be to stop wasting health care resources on lucrative but less important services to the rich, such as cosmetic surgery and treating “erectile disfunction”, and shift them to help with treating the basic health care needs of everybody.

 

[gnjsdad]

According to the article, it doesn’t conflict with American law or policy. Anyone is free to use an Emergency Room for health care. Basic health care needs are met for even the poorest citizen or illegal immigrant.

Let me cite a recent personal experience of “anyone is free to use an emergency room” healthcare as it exists today.

My daughter, a freshman college student, was recently hit by a car while crossing a busy intersection. She was taken by ambulance to a local hospital less than a mile away. She was taken to the emergency room.

I thank the Lord every day that she was not seriously hurt, yet when the accident occurred, neither she not I was aware of exactly how badly she was hurt. A few days later, she (18 year old college student with no job) was presented with a bill for $960 for the ambulance ride. We haven’t seen what the hospital will charge for her treatment, but it can safely be assumed that it will be for more than $960.

Thank God we have insurance that will (hopefully) cover this. My point is, what if we didn’t have insurance? What if we couldn’t afford the monthly premium? Many are in that position. I thought I lived in a civilized society that takes care of people who fall into misfortune, but no, it turns out that I live in a dog-eat-dog hellhole that charges $960 for medical transport! Was I supposed to tell her to refuse the ambulance ride? Or, don’t go to the hospital? That’s what it is in a system where “someone has to pay”. Sure, my insurance will pay, but probably only after they get the at-fault party’s insurance to pay.

Such is life under a system that ignores Catholic teaching.

 

[Tablefor9]

I personally found it very enlightening that Pope Francis made those comments to Doctors with Africa.

I regularly do mission work in Africa, in fact, I just got back from a trip a few weeks ago.

This comment was directed at those who do work in the developing world for a very specific reason, that is where health care is really lacking.

On one of my visits to one of the villages in Tanzania, the local ‘health care’ was the first aid kit that the parish priest kept in his house. I assisted with the treatment of a 9 year old girl. I cleaned out the cut she had, and then Fr David applies super glue to close the wound.

What I am afraid of, is this call will be used to call for more health care spending in the Western countries. Even the poor in the developing countries have access to health care that most in the world could only dream of. In health care terms, we are the “1%'ers”, even the US poor can count themselves in the top 10%

My fear is that health care would be viewed as a government responsibility, where the rich countries provide health care, and then expect the poorer governments to do the same.

What is needed is for the faithful to support the Church in providing health care.

A great example of this is a project that I toured with one of the African bishops. It was the foundation of a hospital, single story, 50 beds. It was started by the local government 12 years ago, and then the project was cancelled. The foundation and support columns have sat unused for 10 years. The bishop has recently gotten approval to complete the project, but needs western support to do so.

What will the call be from the Pope’s statement, for more money to be spent in the US, Canada and Europe, or for the money for those who have nothing. Will in be a call for more government spending, or for support of the Church?

Great point! I pray it is support for the Church to carry on doing what we do.

 

[Suudy]

Using your logic, how do you justify a nation financing a military force ?

If defense is a right, why isn’t health care ?

Using your logic, we should have a universal food, clothing, and shelter. But we don’t. It’s a matter of prudential judgement.

Now, I think that socializing healthcare is the least efficient and most intrusive means of solving problems for the few that need it. Everyone needs security, and almost none of the populace has the individual means to ensure their security. Everyone needs healthcare, but only a few lack the means to provide for their own healthcare. So, it is a matter of degrees. The more people that have the means to provide, the less the need for a socialized system. The less the people that have the means, the greater the needs for a socialized system.

Unfortunately, the rising need the people have for healthcare is the government’s own doing. Mandating services, such as port wine stain removal, cleft palate repair, hair replacement, breast reconstruction, etc, are driving up costs. Closing down avenues for saving, such as HSAs or even high deductible plans, make it harder for companies to provide affordable plans. I even think the complete separation between payment and services provided hides costs driving up demand and increasing costs.

If the government were to just get out of the way, costs would come down. And the biggest problem with Obamacare is that it did nothing to drive down costs, only change they way it is paid. The biggest complaint is cost. So why not take steps to actually help reduce costs?

Do we allow people to bleed to death or die from a heart attack, because its not their right to impose themselves on others, physically and financially ?

And your solution to hold a gun to the head of the doctor to force them to help? Or the doctor’s neighbor to force them to pay the doctor? I don’t see how your solution is any less problematic.

First, it is recognized that everyone has a duty to help those in need. Second, everyone has a right to the fruits of their labor. Finally, everyone has a right to certain universal goods, such as food, clothing, shelter, and healthcare. So, how do we balance these duties and rights?

We balance those rights through a voluntary system in which all the parties cooperate. And in those few cases where that fails, I do think it appropriate for the government to step in and either 1) provide care for those in need or 2) provide financial assistance for those in need. But I think the government intervention, consistent with the subsidiarity, should be limited, as brief as possible, and an exception to the rule. Universal healthcare is none of those things.

 

[Tablefor9]

Let me cite a recent personal experience of “anyone is free to use an emergency room” healthcare as it exists today.

My daughter, a freshman college student, was recently hit by a car while crossing a busy intersection. She was taken by ambulance to a local hospital less than a mile away. She was taken to the emergency room.

I thank the Lord every day that she was not seriously hurt, yet when the accident occurred, neither she not I was aware of exactly how badly she was hurt. A few days later, she (18 year old college student with no job) was presented with a bill for $960 for the ambulance ride. We haven’t seen what the hospital will charge for her treatment, but it can safely be assumed that it will be for more than $960.

Thank God we have insurance that will (hopefully) cover this. My point is, what if we didn’t have insurance? What if we couldn’t afford the monthly premium? Many are in that position. I thought I lived in a civilized society that takes care of people who fall into misfortune, but no, it turns out that I live in a dog-eat-dog hellhole that charges $960 for medical transport! Was I supposed to tell her to refuse the ambulance ride? Or, don’t go to the hospital? That’s what it is in a system where “someone has to pay”. Sure, my insurance will pay, but probably only after they get the at-fault party’s insurance to pay.

Such is life under a system that ignores Catholic teaching.

I’m glad your daughter is going to be okay; I’m sorry she was hurt. If you pay even $10 a month on medical bills, they won’t be dings to your credit, in case you weren’t aware. You don’t have to try to pay it all at once or put it on a credit card and accrue that interest.

See, someone (either taxpayers or the end users of the health system) has to pay for all that state of the art equipment that can provide some of the best healthcare in the world. It also has to pay salaries for incredibly well educated staff to use that equipment. Salaries which have been flat for at least a decade.

 

[Suudy]

No, it seemed that you were implying that those who felt socialized medicine is the way to go were wrong.

I think those that think that socialized medicine as a euphemism for universal healthcare are very wrong. But if by socialized medicine one means a social system of care to assist those in need funded private and/or the government, then no, I think that reasonable.

 

[Book_Worm]

Who’s going to pay for it? Probably the same people who have no problem spending billions on tanks, planes, drones, missiles, etc.

And to answer a PP, if our health care system is so good, why do we have so much medical tourism among our own citizens, going to other countries for procedures that they cannot afford here?

 

[Suudy]

I’ve never seen a Democratic ad like the one you describe.

Here you go:

youtu.be/OGnE83A1Z4U

On the other hand, I remember distinctly the summer of 2009 when there were hundreds of “Tea Party” rallies accusing President Obama of wanting to set up “death panels” to kill off older and sick people as part of the ACA. A few GOP politicians, e.g. Sarah Palin, also made this accusation.

I agree. The “death panel” rhetoric was ridiculous, and was rightly condemned. And much of the right distanced themselves from it.

I’m still waiting for the Democrats to back way from rhetoric.

 

[Crossbones]

I think those that think that socialized medicine as a euphemism for universal healthcare are very wrong. But if by socialized medicine one means a social system of care to assist those in need funded private and/or the government, then no, I think that reasonable.

I think these are two possible solutions that would meet the teaching of the Catholic Church.

 

[LilyM]

Who’s going to pay for it? Probably the same people who have no problem spending billions on tanks, planes, drones, missiles, etc.

And to answer a PP, if our health care system is so good, why do we have so much medical tourism among our own citizens, going to other countries for procedures that they cannot afford here?

Amen! It’s a matter of choosing priorities and what money gets spent on.

 

[Expatreprocedit]

And here’s another example of the ends justifying the means. If the studies are true that “tens of thousands die from being uninsured” that does not necessarily justify the means of a socialized system.

I cannot fathom the mindset that doesn’t think tens of thousands of deaths from inadequate healthcare doe not justify whatever means are necessary to correct that situation, including socialized health acre.

 

[Expatreprocedit]

Here you go:

youtu.be/OGnE83A1Z4U

I agree. The “death panel” rhetoric was ridiculous, and was rightly condemned. And much of the right distanced themselves from it.

I will agree that that ad is indefensible.

 

[Suudy]

Thank God we have insurance that will (hopefully) cover this. My point is, what if we didn’t have insurance?

I can personally attest to what happens. You tell the ambulance company your scenario, fill out the paperwork, and they write it off. That’s exactly what happened to my friend back in 2001 that slipped on icy stairs down from his apartment and the ambulance carried him to the hospital for a broken leg.

What if we couldn’t afford the monthly premium? Many are in that position.

You get Medicaid, or charity care. Honestly, have you ever looked at the requirement to qualify for charity care from most hospitals? In WA state (where I lived most of my life), those under the federal poverty level get 100% coverage under charity care. All the way up to 200% the federal poverty level receive discounts. A family of four can have a monthly income of up to $5k/month, or $60k/year, and receive a discount. (See this link).

Healthcare is available for those with limited financial resources.

I thought I lived in a civilized society that takes care of people who fall into misfortune, but no, it turns out that I live in a dog-eat-dog hellhole that charges $960 for medical transport!

Thank the government for that. Many municipalities require permitting, which limits the number of providers, driving down supply. Some even cap the cost of rides, which means even those rides that are simplistic must be higher to compensate for those rides that are much more complicated.

Such is life under a system that ignores Catholic teaching.

What was being ignored? Who denied your daughter access to healthcare?

I’ll give you an anecdote to match.

My father, after retiring from a 27 year Navy career, had Tricare, Medicare, and VA benefits. Near the end of his life, he has COPD. While traveling in Arizona, he had a particularly rough time. He went to the hospital and receive treatment to stabilize his breathing and a few prescriptions to help him get home to WA. After a few months, he received a bill from the hospital in AZ. Tricare, Medicare, and the VA were fighting over who was responsible for the bill. Tricare claimed the care was out-of-network, thus Medicare was responsible. Medicare said it was related to his disability, thus the VA should pay. And the VA said his COPD was unrelated to his disability, and thus Tricare should pay.

After months of bills from the hospital, and getting nowhere with the bureaucracies of government run healthcare, he gave up and just paid the bill himself.

And another story. My aunt recently had a stroke. My uncle wanted to get her into physical therapy ASAP after being released from the ER, telling the hospital that he would pay out of pocket “NOW!” rather than wait for a pre-approval from Medicare. The hospital said that if they did that, Medicare would refuse to authorize since they failed to wait for approval. My uncle didn’t care, saying he’d pay out of pocket. The hospital shrugged and moved her. And sure enough, Medicare refused to authorize.

Now, how does Medicare operate according to Catholic teaching by refusing to cover care because the hospital didn’t follow the proper procedure?

Neither system is perfect, but one is better than the other.

 

[Tablefor9]

Who’s going to pay for it? Probably the same people who have no problem spending billions on tanks, planes, drones, missiles, etc.

And to answer a PP, if our health care system is so good, why do we have so much medical tourism among our own citizens, going to other countries for procedures that they cannot afford here?

Our health care system isn’t the best in the world, and I never said it was. In fact, I’m a proponent of change here, especially in my field, which is maternal-child health. But, it’s better than many.

Medical tourism FROM the US is usually among affluent people who can already afford to A. Travel internationally and B. Pay out of pocket for healthcare. The leading specialties are cosmetic procedures and restorative or cosmetic dentistry. Followed by cardiac procedures and orthopedics where people can save 50%ish. Cancer rounds out the top 5, but only for “last ditch” or experimental procedures. So basically, vanity procedures…taking advantage of low costs of healthcare/low nursing and medical wages/unregulated treatments.

Medical tourism to the US also includes cosmetics, but is heavy on the general surgery, orthopedic, neuro, and cardiovascular; anecdotally it’s because of quality and to decrease wait time. We also have people coming from the Middle East to have their babies all the time.