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ucfengr
Guest
If healthcare is a right, are Catholic doctors in violation of Church teaching when they charge for their services?
Pope Francis: healthcare is a 'universal right,' not a 'consumer good' [CWN]
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stinkcat_14
Guest
If a person was having a heart attack and needed treatment, would it be moral for a Catholic doctor to refuse to treat the patient if they could not pay?
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J_Peterson
Guest
Tradition isn’t dead, it’s living. I have no idea if healthcare as a right is new or based on an older tradition but it is now part of our tradition since Pope Francis is part of our tradition. Perhaps in 1000 years someone will ask when the tradition of considering healthcare a human right started and they’ll say about 1000 years ago.
Suudy
Active member
What kind of government do you think Christ will create when he returns? What will 75% of Americans think of a religious leader? What would some Catholics think of a religious leader?
If a religious person believes the tenets of their faith, and believes they are consistent with God’s will, then why wouldn’t they want those tenets to be embodied in all facets of life, including the government? Our goal should always be to conform our lives–all aspects of our lives–with the truth. And if one believes that Christ is the “way the truth and the life,” then the goal should be to conform our lives to Christ.
Frankly, I think people who out one side of their mouths say they are devout Christians and out the other side of their mouth say that they don’t want others to be Christians are being disingenuous either about their faith, their evangelization, or both. One is either all in for Christ, or not in at all.
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August_Carlson
Guest
The word “tradition” comes from the Latin meaning “handing over.” It is the teaching and practices handed down in oral or written form separately, but not independently, from scripture. Tradition comes from Sacred Scripture, the essential doctrines of the Church as specified historically through the Magisterium, the writings of the Fathers, the liturgical life of the Church and the living and lived faith of the Church over the centuries. Secondarily, it is the customs, institutions and practices which, over time have expressed the Faith (I’m taking and abridging this definition from the OSV Catholic Encyclopedia).
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ucfengr
Guest
Health care isn’t free. Even if the doctor is willing to provide his service pro bono, drugs and other supplies aren’t free. How deeply must the doctor go into his own pocket to fulfill Catholic doctrine?
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J_Peterson
Guest
There won’t be any need for a government after the resurrection. We will see God and that will be enough.
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stinkcat_14
Guest
You are not answering my question. Is it moral to refuse treatment and risk death if a patient cannot pay?
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J_Peterson
Guest
Nothing in what you wrote indicates that tradition can’t be added to. Things we call tradition all had a start somewhere.
Suudy
Active member
So, the kingdom that Christ has established in heaven and on earth is anarchy? And what is meant by subjection to Christ?
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jtauke
Guest
So it’s preferable to stand before St. Peter and say, “I could have helped, but I figured money was more important than my fellow man”?
Suudy
Active member
I posted this earlier on the thread. There are 2 sides. There is a duty of all to provide for the needs of others. And there is a duty to respect the property of others. How do we reconcile those?
Now, in your example above, I do think it would be impossible to justify to Christ a refusal to provide aid to those in need if one is capable of doing so. But on the other hand, it would be impossible to justify to Christ that one forced another to act against their will. There must be a balance.
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ucfengr
Guest
So, you’ve given every dime you have beyond what is needed for bare subsistence to charity, or are you going to be in that situation yourself?
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jtauke
Guest
False comparison, as doctors are not living in bare subsistence (unless bare subsistence is not having another 1000 sq ft in the house and the latest BMW in the driveway).
Emergency rooms in the US cannot turn away a patient for any reason, regardless of their ability to pay. Are doctors that work in the ER barely subsisting?
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August_Carlson
Guest
Here’s a lovely article (quite long, so please read at your leisure) about Hospitals from the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia: newadvent.org/cathen/07480a.htm
The scriptural basis for health care is definitely clear – “… heal those who are sick …; and tell them, the kingdom of God is close upon you.” (LUKE 10:9). Because this is a direct command from our Lord, we must respond affirmatively.
What is evident from the article is that, until very modern times, it was the Church, through her religious orders, her monasteries, and the papacy itself, that underwrote the cost of caring for the sick.There were also very wealthy patrons (emperors, kings and the nobility, motivated by Christian charity) who also helped to underwrite the costs associated with healthcare.
The break in financing the cause occurred because of the Reformation. Many hospitals were closed in the chaos that ensued but – and this is worth noting – “even Luther confessed more than once that under the papacy generous provision had been made for all classes of suffering, while among his own followers no one contributed to the maintenance of the sick and the poor (Sämmtl. Werke, XIV, 389-390; XIII, 224-225). As a result, the hospitals in Protestant countries were rapidly secularized, though efforts were not wanting, on the part of parish and municipality, to provide funds for charitable purposes (Uhlhorn, III).” (From the New Advent article noted above).
New World health care also first came from Catholic sources and financing in both Mexico and New France (though not in the Protestant English colonies). Today, almost 20% of all hospital care occurs in a Catholic hospital setting (see this article from today’s New York Post: nypost.com/2016/05/09/the-aclus-deadly-anti-catholic-vendetta/). The people who support Catholic hospitals are not necessarily diocesan – in fact, they are seldom so. Rather, it is wealthy donors, assisted by tax breaks guaranteed by the State, and the patients themselves, who carry the burden of cost at Catholic hospitals.
The problems we are facing as a nation – and I suspect, worldwide as well – is that the cost of healthcare has skyrocketed beyond our abilities to remain compassionate. The Church has gotten out of the direct financing of healthcare – apparently, she simply can’t afford it anymore. (So, in a sense, the Church doesn’t really look at it as being universal. It’s only universal if someone else pays the tab). Also, in a democracy, the burden of healthcare costs has been shifted to the citizen, and not necessarily the wealthy. Apparently, the Church can’t actually afford to follow our Lord’s command fiancially, and so we’ve fobbed it off to the State to do the work of underwriting.
The scriptural basis for health care is definitely clear – “… heal those who are sick …; and tell them, the kingdom of God is close upon you.” (LUKE 10:9). Because this is a direct command from our Lord, we must respond affirmatively.
What is evident from the article is that, until very modern times, it was the Church, through her religious orders, her monasteries, and the papacy itself, that underwrote the cost of caring for the sick.There were also very wealthy patrons (emperors, kings and the nobility, motivated by Christian charity) who also helped to underwrite the costs associated with healthcare.
The break in financing the cause occurred because of the Reformation. Many hospitals were closed in the chaos that ensued but – and this is worth noting – “even Luther confessed more than once that under the papacy generous provision had been made for all classes of suffering, while among his own followers no one contributed to the maintenance of the sick and the poor (Sämmtl. Werke, XIV, 389-390; XIII, 224-225). As a result, the hospitals in Protestant countries were rapidly secularized, though efforts were not wanting, on the part of parish and municipality, to provide funds for charitable purposes (Uhlhorn, III).” (From the New Advent article noted above).
New World health care also first came from Catholic sources and financing in both Mexico and New France (though not in the Protestant English colonies). Today, almost 20% of all hospital care occurs in a Catholic hospital setting (see this article from today’s New York Post: nypost.com/2016/05/09/the-aclus-deadly-anti-catholic-vendetta/). The people who support Catholic hospitals are not necessarily diocesan – in fact, they are seldom so. Rather, it is wealthy donors, assisted by tax breaks guaranteed by the State, and the patients themselves, who carry the burden of cost at Catholic hospitals.
The problems we are facing as a nation – and I suspect, worldwide as well – is that the cost of healthcare has skyrocketed beyond our abilities to remain compassionate. The Church has gotten out of the direct financing of healthcare – apparently, she simply can’t afford it anymore. (So, in a sense, the Church doesn’t really look at it as being universal. It’s only universal if someone else pays the tab). Also, in a democracy, the burden of healthcare costs has been shifted to the citizen, and not necessarily the wealthy. Apparently, the Church can’t actually afford to follow our Lord’s command fiancially, and so we’ve fobbed it off to the State to do the work of underwriting.
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Maximilan_Kolbe
Guest
Is it preferable to stand before St. Peter and said “in an attempt to make myself feel good about helping people, I wasted the limited money we had on horrendously stupid ideas that stood no chance of working, but it did make me feel better about myself!” ??
I’ll take leading questions for $200, Alex.
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Michael_Mayo
Guest
It is not up to the doctor. It is up to the health system. Our is broken and I do not know what the best fix is. If patients cannot pay for ER care it now gets subsidized through higher rates to other with insurance or private pay. But that is just for “emergencies”. Many health crises could be avoided if people went to their own physicians for primary care maintenance. If they do not have insurance and cannot afford it they do not go until their is a crisis.
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jtauke
Guest
I have no idea what you’re talking about here…
Are you implying trying to get healthcare for everyone is horrendously stupid? Which would ride pretty close to calling Pope Francis horrendously stupid…
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Maximilan_Kolbe
Guest
No, I am saying you ask silly questions as though your portray the manner I which those who may oppose your brand of healthcase accurately.
We can argue semantics about the word “right”, but regardless, I think everyone should have a certain level of medical treatment when needed, just as I think everyone should have enough food to survive. I doubt many disagree with that.
The leap from opposing Obamacare (as one example) to wanting to tell St. Peter we cared more about money is nonsense, and no different than the throw granny off a cliff commercial.
If you can’t read what people have said and see what their specific objections are to specific ideas, there isn’t much point in commenting, is there? I don’t think for a second the folks who espouse (for example) Bernie’s idea of a healthcare system are more in tune with Pope Francis’s message than the folks who (for example) think it is a bad idea.
There is no moral high ground with a single payer system, for example.
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stinkcat_14
Guest
What is the horrendously stupid idea that you are talking about? If one is claiming that single payer is a horrendously stupid idea, that is not something that has been officially determined. Certainly, single payer has its issues and I personally don’t favor single payer, but when it comes to healthcare, there is no ideal solution. The real question is what set of problems do we want to live with. If we have our current system we have one set of problems. If we have single payer we have another set of problems. Reasonable people can differ as to which set of problems is preferable.
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