Pope Francis' in-flight interview from Lesbos to Rome [addresses Amoris Laetitia & Schonborn]

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http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/i...ic_News_Credit_Alan_Holdren_CNA_CNA.jpgAboard the papal plane, Apr 16, 2016 / 11:09 am (CNA).- Pope Francis: I thank you for your day of work, for me and also for you it was a bit powerful.

…

Frank Rocca (Wall Street Journal): Thanks, Holy Father. I see that the questions on immigration that I had thought to ask you have been asked and answered by you very well. If you permit me, I’d like to ask you another question about an event of recent days, which was your apostolic exhortation. As you well know, there has been much discussion about on one of the many, I know that we’ve focused on this a lot…there has been much discussion after the publication. Some sustain that nothing has changed with respect to the discipline that regulates access to the sacraments for the divorced and remarried, that the Law, the pastoral praxis and obviously the doctrine remain the same. Others sustain that much has changed and that there are new openings and possibilities. For a Catholic who wants to know: are there new, concrete possibilities that didn’t exist before the publication of the exhortation or not?

Pope Francis: I can say yes, many. But it would be an answer that is too small. I recommend that you read the presentation of Cardinal Schonborn, who is a great theologian. He was the secretary for the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, and he knows the doctrine of the faith well. In that presentation, your question will find an answer.

Jean-Marie Guenois (Le Figaro): I had the same question, but it’s a complementary question because you wrote this famous ‘Amoris Laetitia’ on the problems of the divorced and remarried (footnote 351). Why put something so important in a little note? Did you foresee the opposition or did you mean to say that this point isn’t that important?

Pope Francis: One of the recent popes, speaking of the Council, said that there were two councils: the Second Vatican Council in the Basilica of St. Peter, and the other, the council of the media. When I convoked the first synod, the great concern of the majority of the media was communion for the divorced and remarried, and, since I am not a saint, this bothered me, and then made me sad. Because, thinking of those media who said, this, this and that, do you not realize that that is not the important problem? Don’t you realize that instead the family throughout the world is in crisis? Don’t we realize that the falling birth rate in Europe is enough to make one cry? And the family is the basis of society. Do you not realize that the youth don’t want to marry? Don’t you realize that the fall of the birth rate in Europe is to cry about? Don’t you realize that the lack of work or the little work (available) means that a mother has to get two jobs and the children grow up alone? These are the big problems. I don’t remember the footnote, but for sure if it’s something general in a footnote it’s because I spoke about it, I think, in ‘Evangelii Gaudium.’

Thanks a lot, I feel calm with you. Now, they will give you something to eat!
Full article…
 
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/i...016_Credit_Alan_Holdren_CNA_2_12_16.jpgAboard the papal plane, Apr 16, 2016 / 01:25 pm (CNA/EWTN News).- Pope Francis has said that the family is in crisis, and that is a much bigger issue than communion for the divorced and remarried. He suggested the news media had focused too much on the latter issue during the synod and in coverage of his recent document on the family.

The Pope spoke with journalists on his plane flight back from visiting refugees on the Greek island of Lesbos April 16.

A reporter from the French newspaper Le Figaro asked why his post-synod document “Amoris Laetitia” treats access to the sacraments for the divorced and remarried in a footnote.

In response, Pope Francis noted a recent Pope’s reflections on the Second Vatican Council. There was the council as it took place in St. Peter’s Basilica, and there was the “council of the media” that covered the event, Pope Benedict XVI had said in February 2013.

“When I convoked the first synod, the great concern of the media was communion for the divorced and remarried, and, since I am not a saint, this bothered me, and then made me sad,” Pope Francis said, suggesting that he is sad that he can be annoyed.

“But do you not realize that that is not important?” he asked. “Don’t you realize that instead the family is in crisis, don’t we realize that the falling birth rate in Europe is enough to make one cry? And the family is the basis of society.”

“Do you not realize that the youth don’t want to marry?” he asked. “Don’t you realize that the lack of work or the little work (available) means that a mother has to get two jobs and the children grow up alone? These are the big problems.”

He said he thought this aspect of the family crisis is certainly in a footnote in “Amoris Laetitia” because he spoke about it in “Evangelii Gaudium,” his 2013 apostolic exhortation.

“Amoris Laetitia” is the Pope’s post-synodal exhortation published April 8. It reflected upon the bishops’ synods on the family in October 2014 and 2015.

In a previous question during the Pope’s April 16 in-flight press conference, Francis X. Rocca of the Wall Street Journal, had asked Pope Francis about access to the sacraments for the divorced and remarried and “Amoris Laetitia.”

“Some sustain that nothing has changed with respect to the discipline that regulates access to the sacraments for the divorced and remarried, that the Law, the pastoral praxis and obviously the doctrine remain the same,” Rocca said. “Others sustain that much has changed and that there are new openings and possibilities.”

Rocca asked: “are there new, concrete possibilities that didn’t exist before the publication of the exhortation or not?”

Pope Francis answered: “I can say yes, many. But it would be an answer that is too small.”

The Pope recommended Cardinal Christoph Schonborn’s presentation of the exhortation.

“You’ll find the answer there,” the Pope said.

Cardinal Christoph Schonborn, the Archbishop of Vienna, led the April 8 press conference releasing the document.

The cardinal had said there had been “too much concentration” on the questions regarding the pastoral care of the divorced-and-remarried. “It’s a trap to focus everything on this point because you forget the sum total of the situation,” he said.

Cardinal Schonborn said the experience of the poor is a key to reading “Amoris Laetitia.”

“In the families of the poor, little steps on the path of virtue are experienced that can be much greater than those who live in ‘comfortable success’,” he said.
Full article…
 
CNA_News said:
Don’t you realize that instead the family throughout the world is in crisis? Don’t we realize that the falling birth rate in Europe is enough to make one cry? And the family is the basis of society. Do you not realize that the youth don’t want to marry? Don’t you realize that the fall of the birth rate in Europe is to cry about?
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It is good that our Pontiff is aware of these problems and concerned about them. 🙂
 
Everyone is unhappy.
An attorney once told me that you know you have a good deal when everyone is unhappy.
So this must be a good deal.

I’m confused myself.
Jesus Himself said there is to be no divorce.
How does one get away from that?

One gets married and gets divorced. He’s really still married. to his wife.
Now he gets remarried. He’s still really married to his first wife.
Not only the church, but God Himself has said the above.

So now the person that is remarried is living in what I refer to as “constant sin.” Which is why there was no possibility of confession, absolution and possibility to receive Communion.

Now, on an individual basis, we are to trust the person’s “conscience”. I’ve taught on the conscience. It has to be well-formed an in compliance with Natural Law and church law - which would be God’s Law.

So now we can trust a “personal relationship” with God as our guidance. Something Protestants have been saying all along.

Except that Jesus said there is to be no divorce…

Marriage is a Covenant. Is it no longer a Covenant? Can the church change the laws of God? We say the government cannot change the laws of God on marriage since it was instituted by God and not by Government. So now the CHURCH is changing the law?

So before a person could not receive Communion because he was living in a mortal sin. Now this is no longer true?

What else is not true? Does this nullify confession? If this “mortal sin” can be accepted, why not others?

Yes. This is a very complicated issue - and many foresaw this end. People will get used to the change - even if it takes a whole generation. BUT, has God changed His mind?
I thought He was the same yesterday, today and tomorrow…

But I’m not a legalistic person and am all for the loving grace of God. How do I reconcile??

GG
 
GodsGrace154 said:
[A] person that is remarried is living in what I refer to as “constant sin.” Which is why there was no possibility of confession, absolution and possibility to receive Communion.

Now, on an individual basis, we are to trust the person’s “conscience”. I’ve taught on the conscience. It has to be well-formed an in compliance with Natural Law and church law - which would be God’s Law.

So now we can trust a “personal relationship” with God as our guidance. Something Protestants have been saying all along. … How do I reconcile??
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Easily: Amoris Laetitia doesn’t endorse the idea of following your conscience except on condition that it is formed according to Church teaching. And it doesn’t approve of Communion for the divorced and remarried either, except under the usual conditions such as living as brother and sister.
 
dmar198 said:
Easily: Amoris Laetitia doesn’t endorse the idea of following your conscience except on condition that it is formed according to Church teaching. And it doesn’t approve of Communion for the divorced and remarried either, except under the usual conditions such as living as brother and sister.
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dmar,
But the above has always been the case.
Then what’s the change??
I’m still trying to read through it. I’ve been told to start at the beginning and not on chapter 8. It sounds from Schonbrun that there are changes…

GG
 
GodsGrace154 said:
dmar,
But the above has always been the case.
Then what’s the change??
I’m still trying to read through it. I’ve been told to start at the beginning and not on chapter 8. It sounds from Schonbrun that there are changes…

GG
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Can you quote the passage from Schonborn that sounds like there are changes?
 
dmar198 said:
Can you quote the passage from Schonborn that sounds like there are changes?
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Here:
Pope Francis explicitly makes his own the declarations that both Synods presented to him: “the Synod Fathers reached a general consensus, which I support” (AL 297). With regard to those who are divorced and civilly remarried, he states: “I am in agreement with the many Synod Fathers who observed that … the logic of integration is the key to their pastoral care. … Such persons need to feel not as excommunicated members of the Church, but instead as living members, able to live and grow in the Church and experience her as a mother who welcomes them always…” (AL 299).
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But what does this mean in practice? Many rightly ask this question. The definitive answers are found in Amoris Laetitia, paragraph 300. These answers certainly offer material for further discussions, but they also provide an important clarification and an indication of the path to follow. “If we consider the immense variety of concrete situations … it is understandable that neither the Synod nor this Exhortation could be expected to provide a new set of general rules, canonical in nature and applicable to all cases”. Many expected such rules, and they will be disappointed. What is possible? The Pope says clearly: “What is possible is simply a renewed encouragement to undertake a responsible personal and pastoral discernment of particular cases”.
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How this personal and pastoral discernment can and should be is the theme of the entire section of Amoris Laetitia constituted of paragraphs 300-312. In the 2015 Synod, in the Appendix to the statements by the Circulus germanicus an Itinerarium of discernment, of the examination of conscience that Pope Francis has made his own.
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“What we are speaking of is a process of accompaniment and discernment which “guides the faithful to an awareness of their situation before God”. But Pope Francis also recalls that “this discernment can never prescind from the Gospel demands of truth and charity, as proposed by the Church”.
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Pope Francis mentions two erroneous positions. One is that of excessive rigour: “a pastor cannot feel that it is enough simply to apply moral laws to those living in ‘irregular’ situations, as if they were stones to throw at people’s lives. This would bespeak the closed heart of one used to hiding behind the Church’s teachings” (AL 205). On the other hand, the Church must certainly never “desist from proposing the full ideal of marriage, God’s plan in all its grandeur” (AL 207).
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Naturally this poses the question: what does the Pope say in relation to access to the sacraments for people who live in “irregular” situations? Pope Benedict had already said that “easy recipes” do not exist (AL 298, note 333). Pope Francis reiterates the need to discern carefully the situation, in keeping with St. John Paul II’s Familiaris consortio (84) (AL 298). “Discernment must help to find possible ways of responding to God and growing in the midst of limits. By thinking that everything is black and white, we sometimes close off the way of grace and of growth, and discourage paths of sanctification which give glory to God” (AL 205). He also reminds us of an important phrase from Evangelii gaudium, 44: “A small step, in the midst of great human limitations, can be more pleasing to God than a life which appears outwardly in order but moves through the day without confronting great difficulties” (AL 304). In the sense of this “via caritatis” (AL 306), the Pope affirms, in a humble and simple manner, in a note (351) that the help of the sacraments may also be given “in certain cases”. But for this purpose he does not offer us case studies or recipes, but instead simply reminds us of two of his famous phrases: “I want to remind priests that the confessional should not be a torture chamber but rather an encounter with the Lord’s mercy” (EG 44), and the Eucharist “is not a prize for the perfect but a powerful medicine and nourishment for the weak” (EG 47).
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The bold is mine.
 
dmar198 said:
Easily: Amoris Laetitia doesn’t endorse the idea of following your conscience except on condition that it is formed according to Church teaching. And it doesn’t approve of Communion for the divorced and remarried either, except under the usual conditions such as living as brother and sister.
Click to expand...
AMEN, God Bless, Memaw
 
From Pope Francis’ Q&A on the plane:

“Because, thinking of those media who said, this, this and that, do you not realize that that is not the important problem? Don’t you realize that instead the family throughout the world is in crisis? Don’t we realize that the falling birth rate in Europe is enough to make one cry? And the family is the basis of society. Do you not realize that the youth don’t want to marry? Don’t you realize that the fall of the birth rate in Europe is to cry about? Don’t you realize that the lack of work or the little work (available) means that a mother has to get two jobs and the children grow up alone? These are the big problems.”

Pope Francis has remarked on some real and serious problems there. The family is in crisis. Birth rates are declining. The young don’t want to marry. The family is not in crisis because of the teaching on divorce and remarriage. That has long since been settled. I wish more attention were being paid by the magisterium to the problems the pope notes above. Changing the teaching on divoce and remarriage will not solve the crisis of the family.
 
  1. I wonder whether some people need to rethink their attachment to the communion ceremony.
There never was anything wrong with sitting it out, and still isn’t!
  1. Those couples who are 100% introverted into the “what about them and the communion ceremony” could take a side step - lateral thinking - and visit lonely people and share in catechesis and Bible study and - horror of horrors - mutual intercession.
R. The dirtiest word of all. Relating.
 
Vic_Taltrees_UK said:
  1. I wonder whether some people need to rethink their attachment to the communion ceremony.
There never was anything wrong with sitting it out, and still isn’t!
  1. Those couples who are 100% introverted into the “what about them and the communion ceremony” could take a side step - lateral thinking - and visit lonely people and share in catechesis and Bible study and - horror of horrors - mutual intercession.
R. The dirtiest word of all. Relating.
Click to expand...
Vic Taltrees
You sound like an intelligent fellow.
How could you say the above???

How is it simply an ATTACHMENT to the Communion ceremony???

Simply:
IF one CANNOT receive Communion, it means he is in MORTAL SIN.

IF one is in MORTAL SIN, who cares if he can receive Communion or sit it out?

IT MEANS THEY ARE LOST!

The problem is not whether they could receive communion but WHY they cannot.
They cannot because they are in mortal sin.

This is what the change is about. Schonbrun made it clear and so did the Pope.
We cannot continue to marginalize the remarrieds.

This is why each case has to be taken on its own merits.
Two living as brother/sister have ALWAYS been allowed ro receive Communion, so
dmar198 is wrong about this. There would have had to be no new encyclical was this the case.

It’s interesting to me how everyone is reading into it what THEY WANT TO. People cannot accept change. A friend of mine is going through a difficult time right now even though I told her 18 months ago there would be change. It was VISIBLY coming for anyone who wanted to see it.

The term “living in sin” is also to be avoided from now on. I haven’t read the encyclical yet but I put forth that it MIGHT be that even two living together MIGHT be able to receive the Lord’s Supper. I’m NOT SURE about this and since posters also don’t seem to be sure about anything, I’ll wait to read it through.

It is clearly stated that the magisterium is not to be depended upon for pastoral challenges. When there is a change in DOCTRINE, which there is here, it comes from the magesterium – This is the problem my friend is having: She’s trusting the magesterium for her salvation instead of Jesus Christ.

GG
 
dmar198 said:
Easily: Amoris Laetitia doesn’t endorse the idea of following your conscience except on condition that it is formed according to Church teaching. And it doesn’t approve of Communion for the divorced and remarried either, except under the usual conditions such as living as brother and sister.
Click to expand...
But, from the posted article:

“… For a Catholic who wants to know: are there new, concrete possibilities that didn’t exist before the publication of the exhortation or not?”

Pope Francis: “I can say yes, many. But it would be an answer that is too small. I recommend that you read the presentation of Cardinal Schonborn, who is a great theologian. He was the secretary for the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, and he knows the doctrine of the faith well. In that presentation, your question will find an answer.”

The Pope says there are many concrete possibilities, not just the one about living in continence.
 
GodsGrace154 said:
Vic Taltrees
You sound like an intelligent fellow.
How could you say the above???

How is it simply an ATTACHMENT to the Communion ceremony???

Simply:
IF one CANNOT receive Communion, it means he is in MORTAL SIN.
Click to expand...
Or has eaten within the last hour.
 
_Abyssinia said:
Canon lawyer Ed Condon:

The Pope has clarified that he wants a change of attitude, not of the discipline on Communion

catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2016/04/16/the-pope-has-clarified-that-he-wants-a-change-of-attitude-not-of-the-discipline-on-communion/
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I got the exact same response from a Papa Nuncio. I even asked if anything in Familiaris Consortio was no longer valid, and was also told ‘No’

Reusing some bits from another thread 🙂

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13829151&postcount=91
 
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