Pope Francis Must Resign: Archbishop Vigano

[Ghosty1981]

I am starting to wonder if they even existed. And I am not speaking of bad faith,but that in all this" he said"," I said",those sanctions did not become effective ( How exactly they become effective,I do not know…). But this is me,and it is irrelevant to the facts.

I don’t think it is irrelevant at all. I think this cuts to the heart of the problem: a lack of transparency and accountability in the Church hierarchy.

 

[graciew]

yet no one in any positions of leadership has had the guts to come out and say they knew. Preposterous.

Is it guts or is that there is a particular procedure for canonical sanctions?

It doesn t take " guts" to hang somebody from the eyelashes,it may be utterly irresponsible depending on the normal / " book" procedures.
That we do not know either .

 

[KJW5551]

Regardless of the sanctions. It comes down to trusting our Church leaders; how can we trust those who knew McCarrick was a sexual predator and did nothing, said nothing, and continue to stay silent?

Talking US bishops now, not Pope Francis.

 

[graciew]

lack of transparency and accountability in the Church hierarchy.

It is assuming…and we can assume a lot…
Better not to.

 

[Ghosty1981]

It is assuming…and we can assume a lot…
Better not to.

Actually, I don’t think this is much of an assumption. There is no “freedom of information act” for the Church, and until now there has been little public accountability for Bishops and the Pope.

What remains unknown is how much corruption has been hidden away, but I don’t think we assume too much when we say that transparency has not been promoted.

 

[kyrie03]

Are you serious? When is the last time you heard, from the pulpit, that homosexual acts are gravely sinful?

Just browse through new ways ministry’s record keeping of Pope Francis’ LGBT record. https://www.newwaysministry.org/pope-francis-lgbt-issues/

There are numerous cases of Pope Francis surrounding himself with those who teach the opposite of the Church’s unambiguous doctrine regarding sodomy.

Bishop Barros who Francis elevated despite Chileans’ massive protests that he covered up for sex abuse. It took a photo of Cd. O’Malley giving to Pope Francis a victims letter to finally get some action 3 years later. http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2018/02/06/bishop-barros-the-story-so-far/

Bishop Paglia, who he appointed to be president of the Pontifical Pope John Paul II Institute for Studies on Marriage and Family (in 2007 Paglia hired Argentinian artist Ricardo Cinalli (warning….don’t look up his paintings) to paint a homoerotic blasphemous fresco in his cathedral Church. Advisor on crafting Amoris Latitea,

Archbishop Víctor Manuel "Tucho" Fernández –author of “Heal Me With Your Mouth: The Art of Kissing” who helped him write Amoris Latitea

Rehabilitated after allegedly trying to silence a victim, Cd. Danneels, chosen by Pope Francis to address Synod on the Family https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/...up-charges-says-he-was-unprepared-for-meeting.

Fr James Martin, special advisor of communications who praised same-sex couples kissing during Mass and encouraged priests to get ready for same-sex marriage prep (I’ll provide documentation if you wish)

*I don’t intend to derail the thread. I just couldn’t believe you actually think that the Church is doing an adequate job in proclaiming the doctrinal truth about sodomy…mixed messages at best.

 

[pnewton]

how can we trust those who knew McCarrick was a sexual predator and did nothing, said nothing, and continue to stay silent?

And AB Vigano. What Pope Francis new is open to investigation at this time, but AB Vigano, by his own admission, knew quite a lot himself. This letter was released only after Pope Francis had removed McCarrick as Cardinal.

Are you serious? When is the last time you heard, from the pulpit, that homosexual acts are gravely sinful?

I am always serious. Maybe the last time was this year maybe? Sodomy is only one sin of thousands the Church needs addressed. It stems from one of the big seven, lust, though is not the only incarnation of lust. Whether it gets the press time it deserves is open to debate, but it is hardly the main mission of the Church to stop Sodomites. That truly would nuts. There may be some in the Church that are too soft on this issue in the name of being pastoral, but I am of the opinion there are also a lot that give it way more than its due, as if is the number one sin. There was even a poster here once that actively believed it was the single most serious sin. Go figure.

 

[OraLabora]

If history has taught us nothing is that people are not categories and conservatives can be involved in homosexual scandals as well.

As was, in fact, Cardinal O’Brien, a conservative cardinal who vigorously preached against homosexuality.

I operate under a rule, that it something is not written down, it didn’t happen, meaning, it is not actionable.

Words fly away, writings stay.

Right, which is why we want to know what documents the Nuncio’s office and the Vatican have. The ball is in their court.

It’s probably not something though, that we mere mortals (i.e. laity) will ever be privy to. We may get something like “an investigation has showed no evidence of deliberate wrongdoing by <insert cleric’s name here>”, or “I ask that you forgive me for not reacting quickly enough to the ex-cardinal’s crimes” or “an investigation shows that Abp. Vigano’s allegations are unfounded”. I doubt will get the gritty details, timelines, memos, etc.

I don’t think it is irrelevant at all. I think this cuts to the heart of the problem: a lack of transparency and accountability in the Church hierarchy.

I hate to say this, but welcome to Italy. I travel to Rome every year on church business. Italians have an, umm, very opaque way of doing business. Just listen to politicians pontificating on the Genoa bridge collapse, pointing fingers, etc.

Don’t get me wrong, I absolutely LOVE Italy and Italians, it’s one of my favourite places in the world to visit and I work very closely with Italians in Rome; truly warm and friendly people. You just have to get used to the pace of things especially if you’re trying to bring any kind of project to term.

 

[kyrie03]

You’d think the media, who published the following story, could do a better job finding information.

“McCarrick is one of a number of senior churchmen who were more or less put out to pasture during the eight-year pontificate of Pope Benedict XVI. But now Francis is pope, and prelates like Cardinal Walter Kasper (another old friend of McCarrick’s) and McCarrick himself are back in the mix and busier than ever.”

Globe-trotting Cardinal Theodore McCarrick is almost 84 and working harder than ever

McCarrick, who retired in 2006, has been on a tear in the past year, traveling all over the world as a roving ambassador, a role for which he's well suited.

www.ncronline.org

Have they questioned Cd Dolan? He should know how the recent investigation of Cd McCarrick got started, if any prelate attempted to cover-up, or if anyone tried to prevent its release to the public. He might even know if the USCCC has a dossier “this thick” on McCarrick.

 

[Ghosty1981]

McCarrick is one of a number of senior churchmen who were more or less put out to pasture during the eight-year pontificate of Pope Benedict XVI. But now Francis is pope, and prelates like Cardinal Walter Kasper (another old friend of McCarrick’s) and McCarrick himself are back in the mix and busier than ever.

A sad paragraph, given what we know now.

 

[kyrie03]

Agree, any sin that is mortal is serious enough to keep one from God for all eternity. However, this particular scandal that we are witnessing is primarily the result of sodomy. It’s also one of sins that “cry to heaven for vengeance”

 

[KJW5551]

And AB Vigano. What Pope Francis new is open to investigation at this time, but AB Vigano, by his own admission, knew quite a lot himself. This letter was released only after Pope Francis had removed McCarrick as Cardinal.

Sure. I doubt he’ll walk away from this blameless, either. But I’m talking US bishops. Some of them must have known. It’s impossible that they didn’t.

 

[pnewton]

Yes, it is in that category (in my opinion), along with mistreating the stranger and cheating the laborer.

 

[pnewton]

But I’m talking US bishops. Some of them must have known. It’s impossible that they didn’t.

Some of them were removed as well. Who knows. I like that the USCCB is asking that this be investigated.

 

[KJW5551]

Wuerl, Tobin, McElroy, O’Malley. What are the chances that none of them knew?

 

[13pollitos]

This part of the linked article seems really awkward now

“I guess the Lord isn’t done with me yet,” he told the pope.

“Or the devil doesn’t have your accommodations ready!” Francis shot back with a laugh.

 

[tafan2]

There are US Bishops who likely knew, but curia officials cannot be excluded from any investigation.

 

[Joe_5859]

Here’s an interesting article from 2016 wherein George Weigel sings Vigano’s praises upon the end of his tenure as nuncio. Honesty is one of the main characteristics he attributes to Vigano.

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www.firstthings.com

 

[kyrie03]

Monsignor Jean-François Lantheaume, the former first counsellor at the apostolic nunciature in Washington D.C., states that Vigano speaks the truth:

Louis Paul Arnaud

Is what he says true? His accusations against the Pope are very serious.

Jean François Lantheaume

All say the whole truth. I am a witness. The nuncio Vigano is the most honest Prelate that I know in the Vatican

Julien Fafart

That’s terrible, pray, the storm will be terrible

Jean François Lantheaume

Worse than you think Juju. Ready yourself…

Charly Blainville

You’re not reassuring us, dear Father!

Jean François Lantheaume

My goal is not to reassure you, but to tell the truth! Bishops are neither unscathed nor untouchable: they are all just as much sinners as are others !!! let it be said once and for all… they do not enjoy papal infallibility…! But of course as soon as one tries to tell the truth, you have your head cut off, or you “have a bad spirit”…. it’s been over twenty years since I said what I had to say…. now believe what you want, but I can tell you as being the direct witness that Vigano is telling the truth: I was the direct witness! these may be the last lines I write… if I am found chopped up by a chainsaw and my body sunk in concrete, the police and the hacks will say that we have to consider the hypothesis of suicide !!!

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voxcantor.blogspot.com

 

[kyrie03]

No argument with me about conservatives falling into homosexual sins.

My point is about BELIEF. If one doesn’t believe that certain acts are sinful or if one thinks the Church is ambiguous and might change Her teaching on certain sins, then it justifies acting in a sinful manner.
Do you agree?