Pope Francis Must Resign: Archbishop Vigano

[kyrie03]

It’s probably not something though, that we mere mortals (i.e. laity) will ever be privy to. We may get something like “an investigation has showed no evidence of deliberate wrongdoing by <insert cleric’s name here>”, or “I ask that you forgive me for not reacting quickly enough to the ex-cardinal’s crimes” or “an investigation shows that Abp. Vigano’s allegations are unfounded”. I doubt will get the gritty details, timelines, memos, etc.

Would you trust the investigation if the memos and documents are withheld from the laity?

 

[pnewton]

if one thinks the Church is ambiguous and might change Her teaching on certain sins, then it justifies acting in a sinful manner.
Do you agree?

Absolutely! That is the nature of people. Finding justification for sin is not hard if one is really enslaved to a sin.

Here’s an interesting article from 2016 wherein George Weigel sings Vigano’s praises upon the end of his tenure as nuncio. Honesty is one of the main characteristics he attributes to Vigano.

@OraLabora presented a picture of how human beings respond when a friend comes under accusation for some wrong-doing. She was speaking of how, even if all things AB Vigano said were true, the explanation may have been Pope Francis simply did not believe them. We have all seen this. Look how family members will defend the innocence of the most heinous of criminals. She spoke of Pope Francis. I would like to point out though that the same applies to all air-breathers. Showing the friendship between George Weigel and AB Vigano does not lend more credibility to his character reference, but opens the possibility that he, like all, might not be quick to believe any negative about a friend. An investigation is needed by those who do not have ties to any party.

My own view is that the letter may be more the product of journalists, the writers, than the AB who has disappeared. On the internet, we call that trolling, writing something inflammatory then ducking out so as not to be questioned. Is this because these journalists are manipulating the elderly Archbishop?

I know this. His letter reads like no letter I have ever seen written by a bishop, much less one written and released to the media. This is fishy.

 

[pnewton]

Would you trust the investigation if the memos and documents are withheld from the laity?

I would, as long as those that make the decision as to what must be made public have not tie to either party, that is, nor skin in the game, but withhold information for protection of the innocent, or in the furtherance of justice.

 

[anon10271182]

Maybe it really is time to change the definitions of sexual sins. As long as it only involves one or more consenting adults, no matter whether they are lay or clergy, any kind of sexual activity might be condoned. At least that would take some of the scandal out of the picture. After all where’s the harm, as long as all involved are adults?

 

[kyrie03]

Investigation could be corrupted, too. Better to be transparent so no one can be accused of prejudice or cover-up. Ab Vigano claims there is documentation. Let’s see it to prove the veracity.

 

[pnewton]

Investigation could be corrupted, too. Better to be transparent so no one can be accused of prejudice or cover-up. Ab Vigano claims there is documentation. Let’s see it to prove the veracity.

Anything can be corrupted. I agree that transparency is needed, just not absolute transparency. For while any group can be corrupted, the same applies to everyone; the public. People in masses can also be corrupted, as witnessed by mob violence, public lynching, the rise of nationalism, the power of the media, etc. To think that somehow people as a whole group are somehow able to make better judgement than any smaller group is contrary to what history has shown. There are few things more unjust than trial by media.

 

[kyrie03]

My own view is that the letter may be more the product of journalists, the writers, than the AB who has disappeared. On the internet, we call that trolling, writing something inflammatory then ducking out so as not to be questioned. Is this because these journalists are manipulating the elderly Archbishop?

I know this. His letter reads like no letter I have ever seen written by a bishop, much less one written and released to the media. This is fishy.

Of course we can be deceived. The devil works on our perceptions. Which is why seeing the memos and deposing those who are implicated or would have knowledge is essential. Start with releasing the 300 page document that prompted Pope Benedict to resign.

Interesting that you perceive Vigano as possibly being manipulated. The testimony is VERY different from the legalese more common to Bishops’ writings. I agree, there appears to be inconsistencies. But we just have pieces of the puzzle. He doesn’t tell the whole story or connect all the dots. That many bishops have come out in support of the testimony is something. Arch. Morlino states,

“In fact, Arch. Viganò has offered a number of concrete, real allegations in his recent document, giving names, dates, places, and the location of supporting documentation – either at the Secretariat of State or at the Apostolic Nunciature. Thus, the criteria for credible allegations are more than fulfilled, and an investigation, according to proper canonical procedures, is certainly in order.”

https://madisondiocese.org/documents/2018/8/Statement%20-%20Bishop%20Morlino%20-%2008-27-2018.pdf

Have you read Vigano’s 2 follow up interviews?
Did you read what his assistant at the Nuncio Mons Lantheaume said that I posted?

 

[graciew]

Our CEA( Conferencia Episcopal Argentina) is the equivalent of the USSCB.
A.letter has been sent to the Pope .
That is our Bishops,my Bishops

http://www.episcopado.org/contenidos.php?id=1781&tipo=unica

30/08/2018
Prot. CEA Nº 241 / 2018

Buenos Aires, 30 de agosto de 2018

Querido Santo Padre:

Como Pueblo de Dios que peregrina en Argentina, pastores y fieles, queremos manifestarle nuestra fraterna y filial cercanía en este momento en que sufre un ataque despiadado en el que confluyen distintos y mezquinos intereses mundanos. Compartimos sus dolores y esperanzas.

Como Usted nos ha enseñado en Gaudete et Exsultate, 92: “la cruz, sobre todo los cansancios y los dolores que soportamos por vivir el mandamiento del amor y el camino de la justicia, es fuente de maduración y de santificación”.

Sabemos que puede decir con San Pablo: “Por eso soporto esta prueba. Pero no me avergüenzo, porque sé en quien he puesto mi confianza, y estoy convencido de que él es capaz de conservar hasta aquel Día el bien que me ha encomendado” (2 Tm 1, 12).

Hoy, por la intercesión de Santa Rosa de Lima, patrona de América Latina, y unidos en confiada oración pedimos al Espíritu Santo que lo colme de sabiduría y fortaleza para que, como sucesor de Pedro, nos siga confirmando en la fe de la Iglesia.

María de Luján lo cubra con su amor maternal.

• Oscar V. Ojea
  Obispo de San Isidro
  Presidente de la C.E.A.
• Carlos H. Malfa
  Obispo de Chascomús
  Secretario General de la C.E.A.

--------------+++++±-------------++++++++±—

Buenos Aires, August 30, 2018

Dear Holy Father:

As a People of God that pilgrim in Argentina, pastors and faithful, we want to show you our fraternal and filial closeness at this moment in which you suffer a ruthless attack in which different and mean worldly interests come together. We share your pains and hopes.

As you have taught us in Gaudete et Exsultate, 92: “the cross, especially the weariness and pains that we endure for living the commandment of love and the path of justice, is a source of maturity and sanctification”.

We know what you can say with St. Paul: "That is why I endure this test. But I am not ashamed, because I know in whom I have placed my trust, and I am convinced that he is able to preserve until that Day the good that he has entrusted to me "(2 Tim 1:12).

Today, through the intercession of Santa Rosa de Lima, patroness of Latin America, and united in trusting prayer, we ask the Holy Spirit to fill you with wisdom and strength so that, as Peter’s successor, you continue to confirm us in the faith of the Church.

May María de Luján cover you with her maternal love.

• Oscar V. Ojea
  Bishop of San Isidro
  President of the C.E.A.
• Carlos H. Malfa
  Bishop of Chascomús
  General Secretary of the C.E.A.

 

[pnewton]

Have you read Vigano’s 2 follow up interviews?
Did you read what his assistant at the Nuncio Mons Lantheaume said that I posted?

Are you referring to the interviews he did through a journalist? I have not seen that he has been in public since the letter.

 

[FirstFiveEighth]

“McCarrick is one of a number of senior churchmen who were more or less put out to pasture during the eight-year pontificate of Pope Benedict XVI. But now Francis is pope, and prelates like Cardinal Walter Kasper (another old friend of McCarrick’s) and McCarrick himself are back in the mix and busier than ever.”

First I would like to emphasize that I would like to see more evidence than an accusation before I believe the Pope definitely covered up abuse. However.

Despite his tough words, Pope Francis has a disturbing history of reinstating defrocked or disciplined priests in the name of mercy, only to be forced to backpedal when the evidence rises to the public view. Especially if these priests are friends with or have friends close to the Pope. For example, a couple years ago he reversed the decision by the CDF under Benedict to defrock an Italian Priest, Izolio or something, who was friends with his Cardinal advisor circle, and instead sentenced him to “prayer”. The Priest was later tried in Italian criminal court and found guilty of abusing at least 8 children. The Vatican then said it would conduct a “new” investigation. The Chile scandal is obviously pretty fresh, where he only acted when he was undoubtedly shown to have received the complaints.

Decisions deemed “too harsh”, especially to connected individuals, are routinely reduced. And so despite talking tough on abuse, the Pope has rendered his own agents for dealing with it more or less impotent. Whether or not he himself is intimately implicated, he has empowered the very method and people who cover up and side step sexual abuse.

 

[F_Marturana]

mezquinos

Hi Grace. How would you translate this word from the original Spanish?

Italian has a similar word “meschino” it sort of means “petty”. The translation has it as “mean”

Just curious.

 

[OraLabora]

Minor quibble, OraLabora is a he

 

[OraLabora]

A monk I know well says that some times a canonical punishment has a time limit. One example he mentioned that he knew about, was for 3 years. How do we know that isn’t the case with McCarrick?

 

[bullish1]

Are you referring to the interviews he did through a journalist? I have not seen that he has been in public since the letter.

So now it is only credible unless journalists are absent? Doesn’t it work both ways? I would love for the Pope to take and answer questions. Same for Wuerl. It’s clear that you setting dual standards. We want the same standards.

You won’t accept anything he says. We get it. We really do. We also are not persuaded by weak arguments.

 

[Feanor2]

Shameful to see the sharks surrounding the Holy Father.

There is a segment in the Church who would love to see the Pope taken down. It’s shameful.

 

[tafan2]

There are certainly some, who we all know as having a history of being very critical of the Holy Father, who fit your description if sharks, who do seem to be hoping this is another nail in his coffin. But one cannot apply this to Bradly. There are several Bishops and some well respected laymen who are not opposed to Pope Francis, yet see that the McCarrick situation does call for a open and transparent investigation. Many of them have also testified towards Archbishop Vigano’s character and integrity. They are not sharks.

I read a report on CNN this morning that said it’s all political, that bishops who do not like the Pope’s care for the poor and immigrants are hoping to bring him down. What hogwash, I have never yet heard a Bishop critical of the Pope’s emphasis on the poor or immigrants.

The broad brush that the Holy Father’s defenders are painting those who want answers is wrong. I have been a defenders of Pope Francis, I continue to say an Our Father, Hail Mary, and Glory Be every day after my rosary for his intentions.

But the letter is credible, it can be verified for it’s truthfulness (indeed Vigano told us where to find the documents). It certainly serves as a starting point for an investigation into the McCarrick situation.

 

[angel12]

The broad brush that the Holy Father’s defenders are painting those who want answers is wrong.

Most “defenders” I have seen aren’t painting others wrong just for wanting answers; but rather, objecting to the calls for resignation, and assumptions of guilt, which appeared immediately, and without those answers.
All the truth needs to come out, and it needs to come out soon. Wherever it leads, and I say that as someone who loves Pope Francis very much.

 

[kyrie03]

Shameful to see the sharks surrounding the Holy Father.

There is a segment in the Church who would love to see the Pope taken down. It’s shameful

Sorry you perceive it this way. I do not presume to know the intentions of others (although their actions can give us clues). It’s possible there are sharks…THAT would be wicked!

There are a myriad of reasons this scandal is so polarizing…chief among them, is the lack of action that works in stopping the abuse and serious sins of depravity (consensual or predatory). There is a ROT. Most would like to see the light of truth shine upon these “cracks of Satan” and clean the filth.

 

[OneSheep]

… I have been a defenders of Pope Francis…

But the letter is credible, it can be verified for it’s truthfulness (indeed Vigano told us where to find the documents). It certainly serves as a starting point for an investigation into the McCarrick situation.

In Vigano’s call for Pope Francis’ resignation, he has appointed himself both jury and judge. In the U.S., a person is presumed innocent until found guilty, and Vigano’s approach is not only un-American, but uncharitable and unChristian as well.

What the whole investigation is going to boil down to is why Pope Francis trusted McCarrick. There is the option that Pope Francis did not know of McCarrick’s history, but there is also the option that Pope Francis did know his history, but fully believed in McCarrick’s repentance and commitment to avoiding sin, that the “medicinal” sanctioning had done its work.

 

[MountCarmel]

Kathleen - Why? For all too many years 'inconvenient truth has been swept under the hierarchical ‘carpet’ and over the years that ‘smoke’ referred to by Pope Paul VI as permeating even the hallowed corridors of the Vatican, appears now to be a fire. It is not just about sex abuse, it is far bigger than that - it is also about the misappropriation of funds, and corruption in the Vatican Bank. I live in the UK, and remember the Vatican Bank official found hanging from Blackfriars Bridge, in London, some decades back - there are a lot of dots both past and recent and they all join up. Since the Vatican, so so so so much to my sorrow and regret are not doing a very good job of clearing out their dirty water {and that phraseology is being very charitable], then, in the US, at least, it appears that State Grand Juries will be doing what Holy Father and the Curia should have long done - seems that Grand Juries and the RICO Act, are going to do it for them. I fear a tidal wave of truth is going to descend upon us. That it is not going to be confined to the US diocese, and the Vatican. I also fear that this may propel Almighty God to unleash very soon, the 3 Days of Darkness, spoken about by St Padre Pio, and some notable others. Mother Church is being assailed from without AND WITHIN, such as it has never experienced before.

'Dark night has come down on us Mother, and we look out to thy shining Sweet Star of the Sea/See"