Pope Francis Must Resign: Archbishop Vigano

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Ghosty1981 said:
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MapleLeaf1:
However, a pope resigning in disgrace is a troubling concept. It would set a precedent of opponents of a pope digging for dirt to take the pope down. The fact that this hasn’t happened before would give more credibility to Vigano, however future calls for papal resignations (regardless of how good or bad the pope is) would now seem less credible, and for that reason Vigano is setting a bad precedent. But it does raise the hypothetical problem on what to do with a bad pope especially in the time of mass media.
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I agree completely. If Pope’s resign because of this sort of accusation then we might as well be back in the Middle Ages where poison was used to remove unwanted authorities.
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This directly contradicts your response to me.
 
gracepoole said:
I’ve no problem accepting that the pope has greater responsibility. But because the Church is not a democracy, I have a big problem with calling for the pope’s resignation.
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Kings have been forced to resign in monarchies without the establishment of a democracy. I don’t see why calling on a Pope who is failing (any Pope, not just Francis) would lead to one.
gracepoole said:
Calling for the pope’s resignation ala Trump is not a valid move for the laity,
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Why not? The laity make up the vast majority of the Church and without the laity, there really isn’t a Church.
 
ucfengr said:
Kings have been forced to resign in monarchies without the establishment of a democracy. I don’t see why calling on a Pope who is failing (any Pope, not just Francis) would lead to one.
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The pope is just another monarch to you?
ucfengr said:
Why not? The laity make up the vast majority of the Church and without the laity, there really isn’t a Church.
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And yet the role of the laity is limited. And with good reason. The Church, thankfully, is not a democracy.
 
gracepoole said:
This directly contradicts your response to me.
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No, it doesn’t. I said people should be able to call for the Pope’s resignation, and I also said that such calls can be wrongheaded. I have never said that I think Pope Francis should resign over the Vigano allegations; I have always said the opposite.

What’s more, a call for resignation is fundamentally a wake-up call in this context, as there is no authority that can actually force the Pope’s resignation. Such a wake-up call has its own value, regardless of whether or not the Pope ultimately resigns.
 
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gracepoole said:
The pope is just another monarch to you?
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It would seem idolatrous to consider him much more than that. Pope Francis is a man who was elected (sounds vaguely democratic, doesn’t it) to serve as the temporal head of the Catholic Church. Whether he resigns, or passes on, someone else will be selected in the same manner to replace him. He is not indispensable.
gracepoole said:
And yet the role of the laity is limited. And with good reason. The Church, thankfully, is not a democracy.
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The laity pay the bills, so whatever the limits of their official role, their true authority is quite expansive.
 
ucfengr said:
would seem idolatrous to consider him much more than that. Pope Francis is a man who was elected (sounds vaguely democratic, doesn’t it) to serve as the temporal head of the Catholic Church
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This is wrong. The Pope is only the temporal head of the Vatican City state. He is the spiritual head of the diocese of Rome, and as such is the spiritual head of the entire Church. He is literally the Vicar of Christ on earth. A Bishop’s tole is not temporal.

BTW, I agree with the position that lay people have no right to call on the pope to resign
 
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The magisterium is not a popular vote.
From the Catechism:
The Magisterium of the Church
  • "The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ."47 This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome.
 
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ucfengr said:
It would seem idolatrous to consider him much more than that. Pope Francis is a man who was elected (sounds vaguely democratic, doesn’t it) to serve as the temporal head of the Catholic Church.
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Still, this choice was guided by prayer and the workings of the Holy Spirit. It’s not quite the same our local elections.
The laity pay the bills, so whatever the limits of their official role, their true authority is quite expansive.
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God is the ultimate authority and our Church is his creation. While money may help the Church to serve God’s people, the Church will continue God’s work regardless of income. To grant authority to those with money seems, to me, to be worshiping a false god.

Apologies to ucfengr and fellow readers. i was unable to figure out how to separate my response in the first section, so I used italics to show my words. I hope this will not prove overly confusing.
 
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That is exactly what I said. Pope Francis DOES NOT need to wait for a vote to act. He has the authority to do it on his own. He needs to speak out and act.
 
My apologies. I was responding to your note that “he does not need to wait for a popular vote from the Magisterium.” The word magisterium was used inappropriately and I sent a definition from the catechism to correct this. It’s not a popular vote sort of thing.
I do see how we have been communicating at cross purposes, and causing confusion and appreciate your pointing out to me that the purpose of your post was to note that Pope Francis has the authority to act independently from popular votes. I agree with your assertion.
May God bless you.
jt
 
So, Vigano has written again:

Viganò releases new ‘testimony’ responding to Pope’s silence on McCarrick cover-up - LifeSite

‘Has Christ perhaps become invisible to his vicar? Perhaps is he being tempted to try to act as a substitute of our only Master and Lord?’
www.lifesitenews.com www.lifesitenews.com

I have to say, I’m a bit relieved to hear more about it. It would be disappointing if one could escape virtually all scrutiny by saying nothing and then hurling insults at your accuser, blocking investigations of the whole affair (supposedly), and the whole thing conveniently fizzles out without even needing to deny it.

I don’t like that Vigano presents the more recent allegations as facts (ex. Cardinal O’Connor investigation) when it seems to be hearsay at this point.

Now Cardinal Ouellet has been thrown in the fire as well. He was mentioned in passing in the last letter, and has said something about Pope Francis being the subject of attacks. Now being addressed directly he is in a more awkward position.

Again, God’s will be done.
 
Thanks for the letter link. His key point is obviously, how can reporters investigate and draw conclusions if evidence is kept hidden.?
 
It may be there is no evidence, not that it is hidden. If this alleged sanction was informal and not written, how can that which is not written be shown?
 
I would say that “informal” does not necessarily mean there is no written record whatsoever. It seems at least that Vigano believes there are some type of documents that will confirm his story.

He really shines the spotlight on Cardinal Ouellet and puts him on the spot to back him up. I suppose we will see if anything comes of that.
 
If the evidence to which he refers does not exist, why not say so? I believe Vigano, I am very disappointed there will not be any investigation.
 
I’m sorry. I get that this is all horrible and has also affected me deeply. But now is NOT the time to leave. Or Church needs a new wave of Saints and you are called to that sainthood friend.

I am considering become Eastern Catholic which is similar to Orthodoxy, but I CANNOT abandon Jesus in the Adoration chapel. It is two things that keep me Catholic— Adoration and the Holy Rosary.

Please choose wisely. There are doctors who have done horrifying things but I still need to see my doctor because my health depends on it. There are teachers who have done horrifying things but I still value education. There are some priests who have done horrifying is things but I still need Christ and His Church for my soul. The Orthodox Church is a Schismatic religion.
 
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Leaving the church because of scandal doesn’t really solve the problem. A lot of saints lived through terrible times but they never left the church.
 
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This topic is already in the category of “old news”.

After 2003, the Church made huge reforms, and things are much better now. All of this keeping-this-topic-alive now plays into the hands of those who want schism, don’t like Pope Francis, and/or find joy in beating up on the Catholic Church.

Please, time to drop it. Let’s pray for the victims and work for reform. Enough.
 
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