Pope Francis: Obstinate Christians are Rebels and Idolaters

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In his homily at Mass on Monday 18th January at the chapel in the Casa Santa Marta the Pope commented on Mark 2:22:And no one pours new wine into old wineskins. Otherwise, the wine will burst the skins, and both the wine and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins.
Quoting from Vatican Radio:“What does this mean? That He changes the law? No! That the law is at the service of man, who is at the service of God – and so man ought to have an open heart. ‘It’s always been done this way’ is a closed heart, and Jesus tells us, ‘I will send you the Holy Spirit and He will lead you into the fullness of truth.’ If you have a heart closed to the newness of the Spirit, you will never reach the full truth. And your Christian life will be a half-and-half life, a patched life, mended with new things, but on a structure that is not open to the voice of the Lord—a closed heart, so that you are not able to change the wineskins.”

This, the Pope emphasized, was the sin of Saul, for which he was rejected by God. “It is the sin of so many Christians who cling to what has always been done and who do not change the wineskins. And they end up with half a life, [a life that is] patched, mended, meaningless.” The sin, he said, “is a closed heart,” that “does not hear the voice of the Lord, that is not open to the newness of the Lord, to the Spirit that always surprises us.” This rebellion, says Samuel, is “the sin of divination,” and obstinacy is the sin of idolatry:

“Christians who obstinately maintain ‘it’s always been done this way,’ this is the path, this is the street—they sin: the sin of divination. It’s as if they went about by guessing: ‘What has been said and what doesn’t change is what’s important; what I hear—from myself and my closed heart—more than the Word of the Lord.’ Obstinacy is also the sin of idolatry: the Christian who is obstinate sins! The sin of idolatry. ‘And what is the way, Father?’ Open the heart to the Holy Spirit, discern what is the will of God.”
The title of the thread is also from Vatican Radio.
 
Michael Winters of the National Catholic Reporter’s take on this homily. I tend to agree that, viewed in context, it is at least partly in preparation for the Apostolic Exhortation on Marriage to come, possibly in March this year. I sincerely hope I am wrong.
 
I think I’ve been watching too much Star Wars because this was my initial reaction to the title of the homily:

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/rxgdu75kcz5anat1dsqa.jpg

-]Princess Leia/-] Cardinal Burke: I’m a member of the-] imperial senate/-] **College of Cardinals **on a -]diplomatic mission/-]Marian Procession to -]Alderaan/-] Malta.
-]Darth Vader/-] Pope Francis: You are a part of the Rebel Alliance and -]a traitor/-] an idolater! Take -]her/-] him away!
 
LordHaveMercy said:
I think I’ve been watching too much Star Wars because this was my initial reaction to the title of the homily:

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/rxgdu75kcz5anat1dsqa.jpg

-]Princess Leia/-] Cardinal Burke: I’m a member of the-] imperial senate/-] **College of Cardinals **on a -]diplomatic mission/-]Marian Procession to -]Alderaan/-] Malta.
-]Darth Vader/-] Pope Francis: You are a part of the Rebel Alliance and -]a traitor/-] an idolater! Take -]her/-] him away!
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Best post Today:thumbsup:
 
Highly polemic and quite disturbing really. Not so much a homily as a political speech.
 
I don’t understand what this means. This is a spiritual matter, not a political one.

Best,
Ed
 
I’m referring to this part in particular
“Christians who obstinately maintain ‘it’s always been done this way,’ this is the path, this is the street—they sin: the sin of divination. It’s as if they went about by guessing: ‘What has been said and what doesn’t change is what’s important; what I hear—from myself and my closed heart—more than the Word of the Lord.’ Obstinacy is also the sin of idolatry: the Christian who is obstinate sins! The sin of idolatry.
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This is political polemic and is un-constructive. I’m not certain to whom exactly it is directed but these are not helpful remarks in maintaining a united church and seem to doubt the veracity of the concept of Tradition that the church has always held to be important. I’m very disturbed by these remarks.
 
I would like to point out that Pope Francis has a tendency to direct his homilies and speeches more to non-practicing Catholics, Non-Catholic Christians and non-Christians much more than he does specifically to practicing Catholics.

If you take what he is saying and apply to the SSPX, sedevantists (which Argentina has a problem with), Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Church of the East, Old Catholics, and other schismatic groups, in addition to Catholics who treat lower case tradition like Sacred Tradition, I think it makes more sense.

I think it’s best not to speculate what the Pope may or may not do. Let’s pray that the orthodox Cardinals and Bishops that surround him will be able to provide good theological advise to him which negates the bad theological advise he is receiving from the progressive theologians.

Also, let’s always to remember to pray for the Pope’s intentions. His job is not easy.

God Bless
 
phil19034 said:
I would like to point out that Pope Francis has a tendency to direct his homilies and speeches more to non-practicing Catholics, Non-Catholic Christians and non-Christians much more than he does specifically to practicing Catholics.

If you take what he is saying and apply to the SSPX, sedevantists (which Argentina has a problem with), Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Church of the East, Old Catholics, and other schismatic groups, in addition to Catholics who treat lower case tradition like Sacred Tradition, I think it makes more sense.

I think it’s best not to speculate what the Pope may or may not do. Let’s pray that the orthodox Cardinals and Bishops that surround him will be able to provide good theological advise to him which negates the bad theological advise he is receiving from the progressive theologians.

Also, let’s always to remember to pray for the Pope’s intentions. His job is not easy.

God Bless
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So Rome wants to end the schism with the Eastern Orthodox and at the same time criticize it for clinging on to antiquated outdated traditions such as the fasting requirements and its ancient Liturgy? I doubt pope Francis is including the Orthodox in his speech because Vatican II states that the Eastern Christians should remain within their traditions (I do not doubt this is how many Latin Catholics feel about the Orthodox). I think he is directing criticism toward Latin Rite Catholics who criticize contemporary Catholicism and are nostalgic for the EF. Similar language is found in his “The Joy of the Gospel” in which he criticizes those who cling to “outdated forms” without referencing those forms. Without naming these forms, he makes it vague enough so as to avoid directly offending people.
 
phil19034 said:
I would like to point out that Pope Francis has a tendency to direct his homilies and speeches more to non-practicing Catholics, Non-Catholic Christians and non-Christians much more than he does specifically to practicing Catholics.

If you take what he is saying and apply to the SSPX, sedevantists (which Argentina has a problem with), Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Church of the East, Old Catholics, and other schismatic groups, in addition to Catholics who treat lower case tradition like Sacred Tradition, I think it makes more sense.

I think it’s best not to speculate what the Pope may or may not do. Let’s pray that the orthodox Cardinals and Bishops that surround him will be able to provide good theological advise to him which negates the bad theological advise he is receiving from the progressive theologians.

Also, let’s always to remember to pray for the Pope’s intentions. His job is not easy.

God Bless
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Ok, let’s parse this.

First off, the Eastern Orthodox Church(s) represent the second largest Christian church in the world with more than 200 million members. The Oriental Orthodox churches include the Coptic Church (the largest – by far – of the Christian churches in Egypt), as well as the Syriac Church (a big Christian body in Syria/Turkey/Jordan and Lebanon). The Church of the East while Nestorian in its orientation, includes the Assyrian (Iraqi) Church as well as the so-called “St. Thomas” churches which are one of the mainstays of Indian Christianity. I seriously doubt that the pope is referring to these peoples.

Secondly, the other so-called churches in your list: the SSPX, sedevacantists, and the Old Catholics are of such marginal influence in the world-wide Christian movement that it seems almost impossible that the pope would even reflect on them in a public statement – it would be akin to him speaking about the Church of the Brethren or the Branch Davidians of the Seventh Day Adventists in a negative light.

And finally, the fact that he’s Argentinian, while germane to his upbringing, shouldn’t be of any importance to his statements to the universal Church. His world-view is not (or should not be) restricted to his nationality. He’s the pope of the largest Christian body on earth for goodness sake! He has bigger things on his plate,

But, in saying all of this, it is a wonder who or what exactly he’s referring to. He continues to confuse me.
 
Jon_Mallory said:
So Rome wants to end the schism with the Eastern Orthodox and at the same time criticize it for clinging on to antiquated outdated traditions such as the fasting requirements and its ancient Liturgy? I doubt pope Francis is including the Orthodox in his speech because Vatican II states that the Eastern Christians should remain within their traditions (I do not doubt this is how many Latin Catholics feel about the Orthodox). I think he is directing criticism toward Latin Rite Catholics who criticize contemporary Catholicism and are nostalgic for the EF. Similar language is found in his “The Joy of the Gospel” in which he criticizes those who cling to “outdated forms” without referencing those forms. Without naming these forms, he makes it vague enough so as to avoid directly offending people.
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Vague is not good. Jesus, aside from His parables, was not vague. I don’t understand what the Pope means. The EF theory is a guess. I was raised in the EF but out of obedience to Holy Mother Church, have no problem with the OF.

Ed
 
+Like any discipline of life found here on earth . . . medicine, physics, engineering, etc., . . . the Christian Faith of the Catholic Church has a distinct set of Christian beliefs and doctrines as its . . . foundation . . . and there is NO allowance whatsoever within the Church for any sort of . . . “arbitrary changes based on personal opinions” . . . any more than there is in medicine, engineering, physics, etc., . . . quite the opposite . . . **absolute truths are absolute truths **. . .and we accept the Faith in faith . . . and obey and walk in the clearly defined Holy Pathways of God defined by Sacred :bible1: Scripture and the Holy Roman Catholic Church as redeemed, born-again children of God . . . below is a quote from . . . Catholic Answer’s Forum apologist **Peggy Frye ** . . .

**. . . :coffeeread: . . . **
**Re:
Is it true that Catholics are free to choose,
with serious consideration,
which Church teachings to obey? **
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

**To protect the faith of the Catholic Church against errors: **
:compcoff:
**Motu proprio **
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/motu_proprio/documents/hf_jp-ii_motu-proprio_30061998_ad-tuendam-fidem_en.html
Catholics are not free to “choose which teachings to obey.”

The Code of Canon Law no 750 clearly states:

Can. 750

§1. A person **must believe with divine and Catholic faith **all those things contained in the :bible1: Word of God , written or handed on, that is, in the one deposit of faith entrusted to the Church, and at the same time proposed as divinely revealed either by the solemn magisterium of the Church or by its ordinary and universal magisterium which is manifested by the common adherence of the Christian faithful under the leadership of the sacred magisterium; therefore all are bound to avoid any doctrines whatsoever contrary to them.

**§2. **Each and every thing which is proposed definitively by the magisterium of the Church concerning the doctrine of faith and morals, that is, each and every thing which is required to safeguard reverently and to expound faithfully the same deposit of faith, is also to be firm-ly embraced and retained; therefore, one who rejects those propositions which are to be held definitively is opposed to the doctrine of the Catholic Church.

Submission of mind and will to the teachings of the Church even when not speaking ex cathedra must be shown (e.g., truths contained in the Catechism, and that artificial contraception is sinful).​
“The teaching Church does not invent her doctrines; she is a witness, a custodian, an interpreter, a transmitter. As regards the truths of Christian marriage, she can be called conservative, uncompromising. To those who would urge her to make her faith easier, more in keeping with the tastes of the changing mentality of the times, she answers with the apostles, we cannot.” (Acts. 4:20)​
Is it o.k. to be a cafeteria Catholic? Pope John Paul II says,
“It is sometimes reported that a large number of Catholics today do not adhere to the teaching of the Catholic Church on a number of questions, notably sexual and conjugal morality, divorce and remarriage. Some are reported as not accepting the clear position on abortion. It has to be noted that there is a tendency on the part of some Catholics to be selective in their adherence to the Church’s moral teaching. … This is a grave error that challenges the teaching of the Bishops in the United States and elsewhere.” (Pope John Paul II in his speech to the Bishops in 1987)​
Can the faithful form their own consciences when it comes to the teachings of the Church? NO.
“In the formation of their consciences, the Christian faithful ought carefully to attend to the sacred and CERTAIN doctrine of the Church.(35) For the Church is, by the will of Christ, the teacher of the truth. It is her duty to give utterance to, and authoritatively to teach, that truth which is** Christ Himself**, and also to declare and confirm by her authority those principles of the moral order which have their origins in human nature itself.”​

:compcoff:
Dignitatis Humanae
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651207_dignitatis-humanae_en.html​
. . . all for Jesus+​
 
Specific conditions have to be met for a statement by a Pope to be considered infallible or a teaching of the church. Otherwise, its just his personal opinion and binds no one.
 
It’s probably worth reminding ourselves what Obstinate means:

Obstinate: perversely adhering to an opinion, purpose, or course in spite of reason, arguments, or persuasion.

I don’t really see the problem with Pope Francis’ actual words. To be obstinate is to go against reason, which is always a sin of some degree. Make sure your opinions and actions are in accord with right reason. Be prudent. Perhaps his tone or other circumstances may indicate he was referring to something specific, but if you’re acting according to reason, then the word “obstinate” does not apply.

Perhaps he was talking about a group of Christians who are obstinate in their view of marriage at the expense of the unity of their communion. Or not. He didn’t say. I take it as a challenge to look at my own life and see if there is anything I’m doing “just because” that could be in violation of reason. I’ll probably have a list a mile long by the end of the day! 👍
 
Wow, he really doesn’t like me does he? To him, I am a bad Catholic with a hard heart, living a “half-and-half life”, a sinner and idolater, even guilty of the sin of divination!

And all because I perfer the traditional symbolism of the Holy Thursday foot-washing and wish he hadn’t changed it. I like the way that it’s always been done.

but wow, I feel the mercy just oozing out of him.

Don’t you?
 
DonCampbell said:
Wow, he really doesn’t like me does he? To him, I am a bad Catholic with a hard heart, living a “half-and-half life”, a sinner and idolater, even guilty of the sin of divination!

And all because I perfer the traditional symbolism of the Holy Thursday foot-washing and wish he hadn’t changed it. I like the way that it’s always been done.

but wow, I feel the mercy just oozing out of him.

Don’t you?
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Word to the wise, you might want to rewrite your post…
 
DonCampbell said:
Wow, he really doesn’t like me does he? To him, I am a bad Catholic with a hard heart, living a “half-and-half life”, a sinner and idolater, even guilty of the sin of divination!

And all because I perfer the traditional symbolism of the Holy Thursday foot-washing and wish he hadn’t changed it. I like the way that it’s always been done.

but wow, I feel the mercy just oozing out of him.

Don’t you?
Click to expand...
This is basically how I felt when I read this. Especially this line ““Christians who obstinately maintain ‘it’s always been done this way,’ this is the path, this is the street—they sin: the sin of divination”. Divination? What? Divination means talking to the dead. These statements are clearly directed at traditionalists, they are uncharitable, unmerciful, divisive and very un-Christ like. Not to mention extremely offensive.
 
I wish he had been clearer on what he meant. He could have offered some examples.
 
I chuckle when Francis makes these barbed comments; they certainly appear directed at schismatic “traditonalists”, who can dish criticism and condemnation but can’t take it.

Yes, I understand people felt an entirely justified indignation towards the rampant Modernism in the fallout of Vatican II. But the kind of people Francis is scathing here have committed opposite, equally fallacious heresy. The people Francis is scathing reminds me of the “Pharisee” wine the Devils drink at a banquet in The Screwtape Letters epilogue:

“Types that were most antagonistic to one another on Earth. Some were all rules and relics and rosaries; others were all drab clothes, long faces, and petty traditional abstinences from wine or cards or the theatre. Both had in common their self-righteousness and an almost infinite distance between their actual outlook and anything the Enemy really is or commands. The wickedness of other religions was really the live doctrine in the religion of each; slander was its gospel and denigration was it’s litany.
How they hated each other up where the sun shone! How much more they hate each other now that they are forever conjoined but not reconciled. Their astonishment, their resentment, at the combination, the festering of their eternally impenitent spite, passing into our spiritual digestion, will work like fire. Dark fire.”

The part I underlined has been the attitude I have seen from followers of, say, Michael Voris. They always have something sour to say against some remote, nebulous opponent. No self-conviction or anything; they just assume they’re worldview is self-evident, and anyone who disagrees with their inner circle is either a heretic or a dunce.
 
The condemnation here was against ““Christians who obstinately maintain ‘it’s always been done this way” - which includes those licitly following traditional ways of doing things, and not just schismatic movements. This seems to be an affront against anyone who favours tradition.
 
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