Pope Francis: Obstinate Christians are Rebels and Idolaters

[Justin_Swanton]

I think he is addressing both of those groups, but I don’t agree with how you characterize the second. I would say that he is addressing those Catholics that are convinced they know the mind of God and are supremely confident that they know how God would apply His laws in every situation, and based on that seek to reflexively impose their view of those laws on others instead of listening humbly for the guidance of the Spirit.

As a Catholic I am “convinced I know the mind of God” on the subject of second non-sacramental marriages because Christ himself and his Church have told me - they are not marriages and are gravely sinful.

I am also “supremely confident that I know how God would apply His laws in every situation” because Christ himself and his Church have told me. When it comes to breaking the sixth and ninth commandments the sin is ***always ***grave. Someone in grave sin cannot receive Communion. End of story.

Does this put me in the pontifical crosshairs?

 

[KSU]

The books I’ve read by Jesuits have been good.

There is no doubt that many books authored by Jesuits are orthodox and well worth reading. My constant desk companion, in fact, is the CATHOLIC DICTIONARY by John A. Hardon, S.J.

People would be well served, however, to use great caution concerning some woks of, among other Jesuits, Teilhard de Chardin, Anthony de Mello, Jon Sobrino, Roger Haight, Michael Amaladoss, and the Jesuit supporters of Charles Curran-- the obstinate of the obstinate dissenters. A nihil obstat and imprimatur, of course, are the first things to look for.

A point for the Holy Father: It is my understanding that prior to his becoming our Pope, Francis was hardly a favorite of the Argentinean Jesuits.

In any case, your statement in post #25, is good advice: viz:
“And the Pope is Ignatian which tells us something. Get familiarized with Ignatian spirituality and you will become more familiar with the Pope.”

 

[Pulvis]

There is a very insightful article on this homily at a website that i cannot link to here without receiving an infraction, but it starts with an R and ends with T. I admit that I find The Holy Father to be confusing. I will continue to pray for Him and all Bishops and Priests to teach and defend the totality of the Faith.

 

[LordHaveMercy]

I think collegeathlete meant Igntion; a system for igniting a mixture of fuel (Church teaching) and air (modern Jesuit teaching).

Omg. This is brilliant. I can’t stop laughing.

 

[TMC]

As a Catholic I am “convinced I know the mind of God” on the subject of second non-sacramental marriages because Christ himself and his Church have told me - they are not marriages and are gravely sinful.

I am also “supremely confident that I know how God would apply His laws in every situation” because Christ himself and his Church have told me. When it comes to breaking the sixth and ninth commandments the sin is ***always ***grave. Someone in grave sin cannot receive Communion. End of story.

Does this put me in the pontifical crosshairs?

You are much, much more confident than I that you know what Christ thinks. As for the Church, it has been wrong in the past. Is it wrong now? I am not sure, and it appears that Church is unsure also, based on the split at the highest levels of the Church.

 

[on_the_hill]

The more Pope Francis says the more I like him.

When he reprimands us for adhering to the position of, “it’s always been done this way,” he’s telling us not to be a stiff-necked people.

I will do my best to follow his lead.

 

[Justin_Swanton]

You are much, much more confident than I that you know what Christ thinks. As for the Church, it has been wrong in the past. Is it wrong now? I am not sure, and it appears that Church is unsure also, based on the split at the highest levels of the Church.

The Church has never been wrong in the past, not on the subjects of defined doctrine or moral theology. Churchmen have been wrong when giving their own opinions as dogma. This is the point of Christ’s promise: ‘The gates of hell shall never prevail against her.’

We have an organisation, founded and protected by Christ, that in its official and definitive teachings will never go off the rails. Hence our confidence as Catholics in what the Church - officially and definitively - tells us.

 

[pleasehelp]

Isn’t it awesome the Pope makes us all think?

Everyone is trying to put ourselves in a box. Traditionalist! Conservative! Progressive! Our Holy Father cannot be contained in a box. And for goodness sake, none of us should be in one. We separate ourselves this way. The Pope is so open-hearted; so merciful, so compassionate, so all-encompassing. He is a breath of fresh air. Everyone is listening to him (except most Catholics). The more I see and hear him, the more he is like Jesus. Mk 1:40-45. In the parable Jesus reaches across the divide between the “unclean” and those “clean.” He TOUCHES the leper and CONQUERS the divide by the Greater Power of His Holiness. Jesus heals the effects of sin by His mighty word and touch. While Jesus found favour with the crowds, there was mounting opposition from the skeptical authorities of His day !! There is no agenda; there is no need to wonder who he is addressing. If the cap fits us, we ought to do something about it. I need to. Sometimes I have this “holier than thou attitude” too. I have been through the Holy Door 5 times already and received 5 Plenary Indulgences. Thanks to Pope Francis to make it within reach for me. I couldn’t have afforded to go to Rome to receive this. Look at the good he is doing.

 

[LongingSoul]

There is a very insightful article on this homily at a website that i cannot link to here without receiving an infraction, but it starts with an R and ends with T. I admit that I find The Holy Father to be confusing. I will continue to pray for Him and all Bishops and Priests to teach and defend the totality of the Faith.

I’m utterly astounded that you think that type of contemptful, sarcastic, vitriolic writing is ‘insightful’. I don’t even believe they are real Catholics. I believe they are pretending to write as Catholics as part of the war against our Church and the seat of Peter.

 

[TMC]

The Church has never been wrong in the past, not on the subjects of defined doctrine or moral theology. Churchmen have been wrong when giving their own opinions as dogma. This is the point of Christ’s promise: ‘The gates of hell shall never prevail against her.’

We have an organisation, founded and protected by Christ, that in its official and definitive teachings will never go off the rails. Hence our confidence as Catholics in what the Church - officially and definitively - tells us.

I am familiar with all the standard semantic dodges. The unavoidable fact is that the Church has changed its teaching on some topics over the centuries, and will continue to do so in the future.

 

[Jon_Mallory]

I am familiar with all the standard semantic dodges. The unavoidable fact is that the Church has changed its teaching on some topics over the centuries, and will continue to do so in the future.

Which is why I roll my eyes when people get so upset about contraception. The catechism is a kind of wax nose. Social/moral teaching may be changed every century or so and the theologians will be saying, “look at how our church is coming into the fullness of truth just like an acorn grows into an oak tree”. Except that the acorn has grown into a completely different tree! The church is under the sway of the zeitgeist just like every other institution.

 

[TCEL]

I am familiar with all the standard semantic dodges. The unavoidable fact is that the Church has changed its teaching on some topics over the centuries, and will continue to do so in the future.

Yes, because some things are immutable, and some things aren’t. Different ways to reach out to children at different times in their lives. But, we don’t really need to go there. I’m confident you would comfortably assert all non-Catholic Christians have also changed their teachings, as well?

 

[Jon_Mallory]

Yes, because some things are immutable, and some things aren’t. Different ways to reach out to children at different times in their lives. But, we don’t really need to go there. I’m confident you would comfortably assert all non-Catholic Christians have also changed their teachings, as well?

The Orthodox have not changed their teaching. It is the only institution that can claim continuity with ancient Christianity.

 

[TCEL]

Which is why I roll my eyes when people get so upset about contraception. The catechism is a kind of wax nose. Social/moral teaching may be changed every century or so and the theologians will be saying, “look at how our church is coming into the fullness of truth just like an acorn grows into an oak tree”. Except that the acorn has grown into a completely different tree!

Can the Church say that binging and purging is good? Anyway, I just find it odd that so many religious groups, founded on the grounds that they are the true teaching and the Church changed, are now changing themselves. They once said that all these “non-essential” things definitely did matter, and now they say they don’t.

 

[peter26]

Everyone is trying to put ourselves in a box. Traditionalist! Conservative! Progressive!

Yes. And there are good reasons for that. People inevitably form groups to stand for what they believe. And as long as that is consistent with church teaching, its healthy and normal human behaviour.

Our Holy Father cannot be contained in a box.

I’d say he fits into the progressive category just fine.

And for goodness sake, none of us should be in one. We separate ourselves this way.

Look at today’s Mass reading (2nd reading 1 Cor 12:12-30). St. Paul was quite clear that although we are all one body, there are differences.

The Pope is so open-hearted; so merciful, so compassionate, so all-encompassing. He is a breath of fresh air.

Merciful? Compassionate? Have you read the homily - ““Christians who obstinately maintain ‘it’s always been done this way,’ this is the path, this is the street—they sin: the sin of divination. It’s as if they went about by guessing: ‘What has been said and what doesn’t change is what’s important; what I hear—from myself and my closed heart—more than the Word of the Lord.’ Obstinacy is also the sin of idolatry: the Christian who is obstinate sins! The sin of idolatry.”

That is not merciful. Its political vitrol.

Everyone is listening to him (except most Catholics).

We are all listening. Some of us don’t like what we hear.

 

[JackVk]

Yes. And there are good reasons for that. People inevitably form groups to stand for what they believe. And as long as that is consistent with church teaching, its healthy and normal human behaviour.

I’d say he fits into the progressive category just fine.

Look at today’s Mass reading (2nd reading 1 Cor 12:12-30). St. Paul was quite clear that although we are all one body, there are differences.

Merciful? Compassionate? Have you read the homily - ““Christians who obstinately maintain ‘it’s always been done this way,’ this is the path, this is the street—they sin: the sin of divination. It’s as if they went about by guessing: ‘What has been said and what doesn’t change is what’s important; what I hear—from myself and my closed heart—more than the Word of the Lord.’ Obstinacy is also the sin of idolatry: the Christian who is obstinate sins! The sin of idolatry.”

That is not merciful. Its political vitrol.

We are all listening. Some of us don’t like what we hear.

I’ve suddenly had a change of attitude, Peter. Francis is blurring the line between mercy and enabling.

 

[TCEL]

The Orthodox have not changed their teaching. It is the only institution that can claim continuity with ancient Christianity.

I can’t adequately respond without going completely off-topic. I have no reason to disparage the Orthodox though, even if I disagree with some of the claims.

 

[TMC]

Yes, because some things are immutable, and some things aren’t. Different ways to reach out to children at different times in their lives. But, we don’t really need to go there. I’m confident you would comfortably assert all non-Catholic Christians have also changed their teachings, as well?

I don’t know how that is relevant to this conversation, but I would agree that all Christian sects have evolved over time, yes.

 

[on_the_hill]

I don’t have any problem with people having problems with Pope Francis. If they leave there will be more room for the rest of us.

 

[Ontheway]

Isn’t it awesome the Pope makes us all think?

Everyone is trying to put ourselves in a box. Traditionalist! Conservative! Progressive! Our Holy Father cannot be contained in a box. And for goodness sake, none of us should be in one. We separate ourselves this way. The Pope is so open-hearted; so merciful, so compassionate, so all-encompassing. He is a breath of fresh air. Everyone is listening to him (except most Catholics). The more I see and hear him, the more he is like Jesus. Mk 1:40-45. In the parable Jesus reaches across the divide between the “unclean” and those “clean.” He TOUCHES the leper and CONQUERS the divide by the Greater Power of His Holiness. Jesus heals the effects of sin by His mighty word and touch. While Jesus found favour with the crowds, there was mounting opposition from the skeptical authorities of His day !! There is no agenda; there is no need to wonder who he is addressing. If the cap fits us, we ought to do something about it. I need to. Sometimes I have this “holier than thou attitude” too. I have been through the Holy Door 5 times already and received 5 Plenary Indulgences. Thanks to Pope Francis to make it within reach for me. I couldn’t have afforded to go to Rome to receive this. Look at the good he is doing.

Maybe there is something to this. This explanation would be acceptable when taken in context. Jesus scandalized the Jews by going to the lepers, harlots and tax collectors. He did go after the one lost sheep, seemingly neglecting the flock.
If Francis is acting like the father in the prodigal son story, then we are all the older brother and we are unhappy.
Francis is just a man. He spent much of his life working with the harlots and the lepers of this world and he seems to understand their pain and their predicament. If he is extending his hand to the lepers, how can we protest?
I myself have been “scandalized” by some of his off-the-cuff comments, but now, I need to listen to him more carefully, and not to jump to conclusions.
I hope that he is right.
God will decide.