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DAML72
Guest
I think maybe you should pick up a Catechism. Marriage certainly is a vocation, and we are ALL called to chastity.
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kag1982
Guest
Okay… I will amend myself. Discern a “religious vocation” and live in complete celibacy. (Generally when vocation is used even by Catholic publications they are talking about the religious types.)
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CradleJourney
Guest
One of the underlying problems though is that it is rarely (in my experience) presented that way, nor have a great many people worked on discernment before marrying. More recently wed couples have had pre-marriage classes and retreats - further back, it was not common at all (at least in my area).
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DAML72
Guest
… and if someone has entered into marriage without a true understanding of what it is that they are doing, then an annulment is appropriate.
Look, I’m not arguing that the annulment process should be abolished, and I agree that there are probably some instances in which the church could streamline the process a bit. What I adamantly deny is that the Church should revise its teaching on marriage just because people these days don’t know what they are doing, and they have become ‘victims’ to the circumstances in our society. We are called to be holy. We are called to live according to the Word. We are called to carry our crosses, to practice self-sacrificing love - not to fill our desires or longings or loneliness with worldly things.
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DAML72
Guest
What about a gay person? What about a widow who can’t find a new husband? What about a single woman (or man) who can’t find a spouse? They haven’t ‘discerned a religious vocation’, yet they are called to celibacy. Is that fair? Would you say the church is telling them to ‘get lost’ just because they can’t have sex without being in a state of mortal sin?
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Corki
Guest
+1
What about a gay person? What about a widow who can’t find a new husband? What about a single woman (or man) who can’t find a spouse? They haven’t ‘discerned a religious vocation’, yet they are called to celibacy. Is that fair? Would you say the church is telling them to ‘get lost’ just because they can’t have sex without being in a state of mortal sin?
Not to mention the many men and women who discern they are called to the single life rather than marriage or a religious vocation.
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Tigg
Guest
:clapping: :clapping:
What about a gay person? What about a widow who can’t find a new husband? What about a single woman (or man) who can’t find a spouse? They haven’t ‘discerned a religious vocation’, yet they are called to celibacy. Is that fair? Would you say the church is telling them to ‘get lost’ just because they can’t have sex without being in a state of mortal sin?
This is one area which clearly pits the secular mindset against the godly. Today’s society is driven by sex. The world finds it horrifying to be denied such. As Christians we are told to deny our passions and appetites so as to become holy; that temptation comes from three sources, one being the flesh. The world says you are not fulfilled without a satisfying sex life or without being “in a relationship.” The Church, OTOH, extols virgins and widows and the virtues of purity and chastity. A single, godly life is not to be pitied, nor thought lonely or lacking, but rather to be admired and is a perfectly legitimate lifestyle.
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DAML72
Guest
I agree. Again, I happen to be one of those ‘innocent victims’. I tried the ‘moving on’ thing. I found a new relationship - was even engaged. You know what? That just made my life even more complicated than it already was - which, long story short, made me realize that the Catholic Church was just about the only church that had its teaching right. (But also offered me a way to know for sure that I was ‘right’ with God if and when I decided I wanted to consider marriage with another man.)
I’m not saying I will never get married again - I will if I am granted an annulment and if I find a good faithful Catholic husband. But for now, I am relying upon the graces the Church provides and the intercession of Our Lady to live a chaste life - and it’s really not so hard when you make use of all the help the Church offers.
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vsedriver
Guest
After 22 years of marriage my husband left and married another woman. He didn’t seek an annulment and I am not surprised. He wasn’t a Catholic when we married but he did convert a few years into the marriage. I’ve decided not to seek an annulment. I have two children, well young adults now. How can I instill in them a respect for marriage if I seek an annulment? Either I meant what I said when I said my vows or I didn’t. I meant it when I said till death do us part.
I have resigned myself to a life of chastity. I am not miserable. I have friends, family, and church to keep me occupied. My sons refused to attend their father’s second wedding. This was appropriate and I was proud of them for making the choice. I did not demand it of them.
What the church needs to do is expand the ministry to divorced Catholics and help support them so they will not fear being abandoned or think they will face a life of loneliness if they don’t remarry.
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vsedriver
Guest
so is it cruel of the church to demand that a young wife remain married to her young husband who survives a horrific accident but in a vegetative state? Who may live for decades unable to be an active marriage partner?
last I heard the vows went like this: for better, or worse, for richer or poorer, in sickness and in health till death do us part. Unfortunately when a spouse leaves that is the ‘for worse’ part in the marriage.
by all means I think the church should have a ministry supporting divorced Catholics. It is especially important to remind Catholics facing a divorce or in the midst of divorcing that they can’t date or remarry without an annulment.
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agnes_therese
Guest
This is very very true.
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DAML72
Guest
Well said. I came into the church feeling that the Holy Spirit was leading me to seek an annulment and, in many ways, I still feel it may be best for my own mental and spiritual health, but I have many days when I feel the same way you do. I certainly am not in as much of a rush as I was - but I have accepted that, at this point, the feasibility of having any more children is pretty low. (I always wanted more. - he left a week before my second child’s first birthday - 8 years ago.)
I think you are right about an expanded ministry. There also needs to be more of a ministry for victims of emotional abuse. Even after divorce, when people co-parent, there are many issues that come up and it can be a constant struggle.
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Chance84
Guest
This part of the catechism is so true, and something that many seem to forget when children are involved, as well as the spouse that was deserted, and for all of society in general. How did we, as Catholics, get so lost in the secular mindset? And the Orthodox Church is the one that has no Pope, and no real final authority concerning the teachings of the Magisterium. Kind of like protestants but without as many heresies.
Anyway, here’s the catechism of the Catholic Church on the matter and something I wish Catholics would really consider as to why this is written in it and how true it really is. If anyone is responsible for the destruction of the institution of marriage in the west, it’s us. Because we should have known better than to go along with the world and it’s self-destructive ways:
#2385 — Divorce is immoral also because it introduces disorder into the family and into society. This disorder brings grave harm to the deserted spouse, to children traumatized by the separation of their parents and often torn between them, and because of its contagious effect which makes it truly a plague on society.
Three time loser, all the way around. Grave harm for the kids, the deserted spouse, and some nasty ugly disease for the world and society. But we’re all so smart, now in 2013, that this type of truth is only there for us to poke holes in, yes? Oh yeah, we’re so much more enlightened now. At least, we’d like to think so. #2385 says different though, doesn’t it? And unfortunately for us, the truth written there is eternal truth, and the hogwash we peddle is a deadly lie.
We are in big trouble kids, and if we don’t start trying a little harder to be holy and to think holy, (according to the true teachings of the Church) we gonna really be left with one big stinkin’ mess in a generation or two, if there’s anything left at all. And just guess who’s going to be the most responsible for that mess, and all that disease. Well, to those whom the truth has been given, that’s who! And that’s us, kids — we have the fullness of truth given to us. Much given, much expected from us, and very much responsible for such a large contribution to all of this “grave harm” and “contagious plague” we are living with.
And the answer certainly is not to spread the plague far and wide and just try to be more “compassionate” while we dish out big helpings of grave harm and disease. Please.
Anyway, here’s the catechism of the Catholic Church on the matter and something I wish Catholics would really consider as to why this is written in it and how true it really is. If anyone is responsible for the destruction of the institution of marriage in the west, it’s us. Because we should have known better than to go along with the world and it’s self-destructive ways:
#2385 — Divorce is immoral also because it introduces disorder into the family and into society. This disorder brings grave harm to the deserted spouse, to children traumatized by the separation of their parents and often torn between them, and because of its contagious effect which makes it truly a plague on society.
Three time loser, all the way around. Grave harm for the kids, the deserted spouse, and some nasty ugly disease for the world and society. But we’re all so smart, now in 2013, that this type of truth is only there for us to poke holes in, yes? Oh yeah, we’re so much more enlightened now. At least, we’d like to think so. #2385 says different though, doesn’t it? And unfortunately for us, the truth written there is eternal truth, and the hogwash we peddle is a deadly lie.
We are in big trouble kids, and if we don’t start trying a little harder to be holy and to think holy, (according to the true teachings of the Church) we gonna really be left with one big stinkin’ mess in a generation or two, if there’s anything left at all. And just guess who’s going to be the most responsible for that mess, and all that disease. Well, to those whom the truth has been given, that’s who! And that’s us, kids — we have the fullness of truth given to us. Much given, much expected from us, and very much responsible for such a large contribution to all of this “grave harm” and “contagious plague” we are living with.
And the answer certainly is not to spread the plague far and wide and just try to be more “compassionate” while we dish out big helpings of grave harm and disease. Please.
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Tomdstone
Guest
If divorce is immoral, why do the American Roman Catholic Church tribunals require a couple to get a divorce before seeking an annulment? Are they requiring that the couple do something immoral?
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99th_Monkey
Guest
I don’t feel you are realistically taking into account the partner that never wanted a divorce in the first place. I have known so many people who would have gladly worked at the marriage, but the spouse would not. I think it’s a wonderful time to consider these unfortunate people and give them a break. I am a cradle Catholic, and I have never understood the hard line for this.
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FAB
Guest
No, the civil contract just must be resolved first.
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Elizium23
Guest
“Catechism of the Catholic Church” said:
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Corki
Guest
Civil divorce is not always immoral. As noted in the CCC section quoted above (2383), it may be morally justified under certain circumstances.
Canon law requires that a person seeking to separate get permission from the Bishop or his representative. It’s up to him to determine if the separation is legitimate within the description of CCC 2383 and should become permanent (civil divorce).
All that being said, we are a “no fault” instant gratification society and even innocent spouses rarely follow the proscribed steps.
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carajentzen
Guest
I am in the process of RCIA. I hope you have patience with my story and I’ll try to be brief.
I married at 19. I wanted children badly. My husband first said yes, and went along with this idea. Two years in, he put his foot down, said no kids, that’s final. I stayed for awhile, hoping things would change. Sadly no. I left. We divorced. Neither of us claimed a religion at that point.
I remarried at 23. My husband was a protestant. I was baptized protestant, 7 months later and became quite devout - much more so than he ever was. After much prayer and doctors appointments and money we had 2 children. He was away a lot with his work. I was nearly a single mom most of the time. Some days he would work 16 hours. He retired at age 53, 3 years ago. He completely changed. He had a temper. He alienated his children. He started yelling, swearing. Throwing things. Calling me names. Being suspicious of me and the kids’ activities. He took control of all our money. He put me on an allowance, even for my own personal food. At the last week of the month, I’d run out of money, and run out of food. I got down to 102 lbs. I became severely depressed. It angered him because I was ruining his retirement. I tried to commit suicide 8 times rather than divorce him. I finally got help and God healed my depression. The kids and I left (they had a choice). I filed for divorce. We did go through counseling. He was so destructive the counselor couldn’t get through to him.
Our divorce, unless the attorneys mess it up any more, should be finally official 01/01/14.
I’ve met a wonderful Catholic gentleman (in every sense of the word) and we’ve fallen in love. We go to mass every Sunday. I really wanted so much to marry within the Catholic Church - to “do it right” for once in my life. So, I need 2 annulments.
1 parish said the annulments could take up to 5 years with no guarantee and I cant take communion until then.
2nd parish says ok to communion, but same about length of time on annulments. No marriage in Catholic church. Get married elsewhere.
Im sorry, but does anyone get that I feel like a bloody leper? Here I am trying to do everything right… take RCIA, change my faith, do whatever it takes… and sorry, you’re not good enough still. I think this is what Pope Francis understands… is this what Jesus would want about his children? Is this how the father treated his prodigal son? Did he tell him go eat somewhere else?
Ok, whaddyall think?
I married at 19. I wanted children badly. My husband first said yes, and went along with this idea. Two years in, he put his foot down, said no kids, that’s final. I stayed for awhile, hoping things would change. Sadly no. I left. We divorced. Neither of us claimed a religion at that point.
I remarried at 23. My husband was a protestant. I was baptized protestant, 7 months later and became quite devout - much more so than he ever was. After much prayer and doctors appointments and money we had 2 children. He was away a lot with his work. I was nearly a single mom most of the time. Some days he would work 16 hours. He retired at age 53, 3 years ago. He completely changed. He had a temper. He alienated his children. He started yelling, swearing. Throwing things. Calling me names. Being suspicious of me and the kids’ activities. He took control of all our money. He put me on an allowance, even for my own personal food. At the last week of the month, I’d run out of money, and run out of food. I got down to 102 lbs. I became severely depressed. It angered him because I was ruining his retirement. I tried to commit suicide 8 times rather than divorce him. I finally got help and God healed my depression. The kids and I left (they had a choice). I filed for divorce. We did go through counseling. He was so destructive the counselor couldn’t get through to him.
Our divorce, unless the attorneys mess it up any more, should be finally official 01/01/14.
I’ve met a wonderful Catholic gentleman (in every sense of the word) and we’ve fallen in love. We go to mass every Sunday. I really wanted so much to marry within the Catholic Church - to “do it right” for once in my life. So, I need 2 annulments.
1 parish said the annulments could take up to 5 years with no guarantee and I cant take communion until then.
2nd parish says ok to communion, but same about length of time on annulments. No marriage in Catholic church. Get married elsewhere.
Im sorry, but does anyone get that I feel like a bloody leper? Here I am trying to do everything right… take RCIA, change my faith, do whatever it takes… and sorry, you’re not good enough still. I think this is what Pope Francis understands… is this what Jesus would want about his children? Is this how the father treated his prodigal son? Did he tell him go eat somewhere else?
Ok, whaddyall think?
- Status