Pope Francis to consecrate his pontificate to Our Lady of Fatima

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Bookcat said:
The information there is coming from misinformation.
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Right back at you 🙂 (not in a personal way).
And Sr Lucia was not happy that people still thought it was not done – when in fact it was.
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I’ve heard differently - but again, what does it matter? Sister was not the ultimate authority. The Pope was. And he never said that he did it (because, he didn’t ever actually do it as Our Lady requested).
 
The moderator isn’t going to keep this thread open if it is insisted upon that a consecration, which the Church says is done, hasn’t been done.
 
Lormar said:
the Church says is done
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If you show me exactly where the Holy Roman Catholic Church definitively states that all the faithful are to believe that the Consecration of Russia has been done in accordance with the exact demands of Our Lady at Fatime - I will, of course, believe it. No such thing exists. It’s not like denying it is against the faith or an ad homimen attack on the pope. For all I know the third secret (in it’s entirety) could mention something about holding off the consecration until a certain date. Who knows? All I know is what Our Lady has promised hasn’t come true yet, and nor has any pope ever done exactly what she asked, nor has any pope ever explicitly said that he’s done exactly as Our Lady asked.
I would like to be wrong, but I can’t help the facts as I see them.
 
Bookcat said:
It matters cause it was done. Wrong misinformation not withstanding.
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So it matters more that there are conflicting reports about what Sister Lucy said than what the supreme pontiff has or hasn’t said regarding an act that specifically relates to his office and power?
 
GWright said:
(Note - I dont know anything about Fr Kramer or the Stigmatist Ruffini, so cant vouch for their credibility. I think the aforementioned Fr Gruner is credible, given Cardinal Bergioglio chose to enter correspondence with him)
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Do you have a source for the bold?
 
Basilios said:
I can’t help the facts as I see them.
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“Sim, esta feita, tal como nossa Senhora a pediu, desde o dia 25 de Marco del 1984”

“Yes, it has been performed, as Our Lady requested, on March 25, 1984” --Sr Lucia

From a letter sent to Bl. Pope John Paul II by Sr Lucia

–Quoted in “The Last Secret of Fatima” (2008) by Cardinal Bertone – a book with a foreward by Pope Benedict XVI regarding his book.

Cardinal Bertone continues: “Any debate about the validity of the Act of Entrustment, or agitation for further acts of consecration, has no leg to stand on.”
 
Basilios said:
So it matters more that there are conflicting reports about what Sister Lucy said than what the supreme pontiff has or hasn’t said regarding an act that specifically relates to his office and power?
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]

If one weights the any proposed “conflicting reports” --one finds that the ones that it was done are from rather credible sources…

If Fr. John down the street says “The Pope said not to use holy water anymore”

and the Secretary of State for the Holy See says – “the Pope said to use Holy Water”

I will take the later…
 
Basilios said:
I can’t help the facts as I see them.
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Here are the facts.

“Sim, esta feita, tal como nossa Senhora a pediu, desde o dia 25 de Marco del 1984”

“Yes, it has been performed, as Our Lady requested, on March 25, 1984” --Sr Lucia

From a letter sent to Bl. Pope John Paul II by Sr Lucia

–Quoted in “The Last Secret of Fatima” (2008) by Cardinal Bertone – a book with a foreward by Pope Benedict XVI regarding his book.

Cardinal Bertone continues: “Any debate about the validity of the Act of Entrustment, or agitation for further acts of consecration, has no leg to stand on.”
 
Bookcat said:
Here are the facts.

“Sim, esta feita, tal como nossa Senhora a pediu, desde o dia 25 de Marco del 1984”

“Yes, it has been performed, as Our Lady requested, on March 25, 1984” --Sr Lucia

From a letter sent to Bl. Pope John Paul II by Sr Lucia

–Quoted in “The Last Secret of Fatima” (2008) by Cardinal Bertone – a book with a foreward by Pope Benedict XVI regarding his book.

Cardinal Bertone continues: “Any debate about the validity of the Act of Entrustment, or agitation for further acts of consecration, has no leg to stand on.”
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Sol de Fatima magazine (September 1985), Sister Lucia was asked if the Pope fulfilled the request made by Our Lady at Tuy, Spain, when he consecrated the world on March 25, 1984. Sister Lucia answered: “There was no participation of all the bishops, and there was no mention of Russia.” The interviewer then asked, “So the consecration was not done as requested by Our Lady?” Sister Lucia answered: “No. Many bishops attached no importance to this act.”

Was Russia (not the world, RUSSIA) ever consecrated by the Pope with all the Bishops of the world in a solemn public ceremony? No. In a way, we’re just dancing around the issue with Sr Lucy’s opinion on the matter here. The fact is that a consecration of the world with a few participating bishops does not equal a consecration of Russia with the worlds Bishops. The fact is that the world is not in peace, that Russia remains full of the worst kinds of errors and the devotion to the Immaculate Heart is not as popular as it should be.

I will study further, I really do have an open mind on this. God Bless you and goodnight!
 
Basilios said:
Sol de Fatima magazine (September 1985), Sister Lucia was asked if the Pope fulfilled the request made by Our Lady at Tuy, Spain, when he consecrated the world on March 25, 1984. Sister Lucia answered: “There was no participation of all the bishops, and there was no mention of Russia.” The interviewer then asked, “So the consecration was not done as requested by Our Lady?” Sister Lucia answered: “No. Many bishops attached no importance to this act.”

Was Russia (not the world, RUSSIA) ever consecrated by the Pope with all the Bishops of the world in a solemn public ceremony? No. In a way, we’re just dancing around the issue with Sr Lucy’s opinion on the matter here. The fact is that a consecration of the world with a few participating bishops does not equal a consecration of Russia with the worlds Bishops. The fact is that the world is not in peace, that Russia remains full of the worst kinds of errors and the devotion to the Immaculate Heart is not as popular as it should be.

I will study further, I really do have an open mind on this. God Bless you and goodnight!
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Granted, I am clueless on this matter, but is it possible that Our Lady, when she said “with all the bishops” did not mean this literally, but figuratively?
 
Bookcat said:
Here are the facts.

“Sim, esta feita, tal como nossa Senhora a pediu, desde o dia 25 de Marco del 1984”

“Yes, it has been performed, as Our Lady requested, on March 25, 1984” --Sr Lucia

From a letter sent to Bl. Pope John Paul II by Sr Lucia

–Quoted in “The Last Secret of Fatima” (2008) by Cardinal Bertone – a book with a foreward by Pope Benedict XVI regarding his book.

Cardinal Bertone continues: “Any debate about the validity of the Act of Entrustment, or agitation for further acts of consecration, has no leg to stand on.”
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Even accepting that, which I do, I’ve always wondered why JPII didn’t specifically say “RUSSIA.” Was it to avoid alienating the Orthodox? Cold War tensions? Deliberate ambiguity as a test of faith? If he would have said “Russia,” like Our Lady of Fatima specifically instructed, we wouldn’t have this whole distracting debate, nor would some on the radical traditionalist side have this to use as fodder.

Perhaps Pope Francis will perform the consecration again, mentioning Russia specifically, just to end this argument if for no other reason.
 
JaMc said:
Even accepting that, which I do, I’ve always wondered why JPII didn’t specifically say “RUSSIA.” Was it to avoid alienating the Orthodox? Cold War tensions? Deliberate ambiguity as a test of faith? If he would have said “Russia,” like Our Lady of Fatima specifically instructed, we wouldn’t have this whole distracting debate, nor would some on the radical traditionalist side have this to use as fodder.

Perhaps Pope Francis will perform the consecration again, mentioning Russia specifically, just to end this argument if for no other reason.
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Hey if it helps the people who this is an issue for them continue thier spiritual growth in holiness I am all for it.đź‘Ť
 
Basilios said:
Sol de Fatima magazine (September 1985)
I will study further, I really do have an open mind on this. God Bless you and goodnight!
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Lets see…something reported in a magazine…or …something reported by the Secretary of State (with foreward by Pope Benedict XVI)…
“Sim, esta feita, tal como nossa Senhora a pediu, desde o dia 25 de Marco del 1984”

“Yes, it has been performed, as Our Lady requested, on March 25, 1984” --Sr Lucia

From a letter sent to Bl. Pope John Paul II by Sr Lucia in 1989

–Quoted in “The Last Secret of Fatima” (2008) by Cardinal Bertone – a book with a foreward by Pope Benedict XVI regarding his book.

Cardinal Bertone continues: “Any debate about the validity of the Act of Entrustment, or agitation for further acts of consecration, has no leg to stand on.”
Now she wrote that to the Pope in 1989. So even if she may have had doubts in 1984 (which I am not saying she did) – Our Lady certainly had time to clear up such doubts. And certainly the testimony of Cardinal Bertone --who was sent by Bl. Pope John Paul II to see Sr. Lucia (and he was also the second in charge at the CDF) – is worth more than an outdated alleged quote from a magazine.
 
Lucky7 said:
Granted, I am clueless on this matter, but is it possible that Our Lady, when she said “with all the bishops” did not mean this literally, but figuratively?
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Even in this case, which I personally believe this is the case, did Our Blessed Mother Mary include the Orthodox Bishops to be in union with him?

Sorry, just kind of playing the “devil’s advocate” here to see if I can understand where those who do not believe the consecration was done correctly are coming from and maybe try to clear out some of the confusion.
 
It sometimes helps to keep a thing or two in mind.

The Church has said that Fatima is “worthy of belief”.

The Church has not passed on whether or not the message the children received was word for word what Our Lady said to them.

Nor has it ever, to the best of my knowledge, indicated that Our Lady “demanded” anything. Requested? Yes. major difference between those two words.

Nor was there anything in the message that indicated that nothing would change until the Pope and the bishops made such a consecration. We don’t bind God.

If one keeps in mind that the Church does not bind any of us to believe that Fatima even occurred, or that any particular message was given, then perhaps one needs to have the perspective the Church seems to have on the matter.

Two Popes and a seer have said the consecration took place. Those who want to be some sort of literalists about the matter are going farther than the Church itself goes on the matter. That, in itself should be a cautioning; it is for us to follow the Pope, and the duly appointed leaders of the Church (as in the bishops) and not take matters beyond what they are taking them.

Communism, as far as the USSR is concerned, fell apart some years ago. That is not to say that it is not viable in one form or another in various parts of the world (North Korea comes to mind) But I don’t recall North Korea being explicitly part of the message. Nor was Islam.

The general message of Fatima is still relevant today, whether or not there was a consecration. It is still worthy of belief.
 
Two other letters from Sr Lucia

ewtn.com/expert/answers/Fatima1984.htm

one excerpt:

"On May 13, 1982, His Holiness John Paul II made the Consecration. I was asked if it was made. I responded “NO.” It was not made in union with all the bishops of the world.

Then this same Supreme Pontiff, John Paul II wrote to all the bishops of the world asking them to unite with him. He sent for the statute of Our Lady of Fátima – the one from the little Chapel to be taken to Rome and on March 25, 1984 - publicly - with the bishops who wanted to unite with His Holiness, made the Consecration as Our Lady requested. They then asked me if it was made as Our Lady requested, and I said, “YES.” Now it was made."
 
Isn’t the complete fall of Russian Communism just a couple of years after JPII the Great’s consecration without firing a shot enough proof? Am I missing something?:confused::o
 
Two other letters from Sr Lucia

ewtn.com/expert/answers/Fatima1984.htm

one excerpt:

"On May 13, 1982, His Holiness John Paul II made the Consecration. I was asked if it was made. I responded “NO.” It was not made in union with all the bishops of the world.

Then this same Supreme Pontiff, John Paul II wrote to all the bishops of the world asking them to unite with him. He sent for the statute of Our Lady of Fátima – the one from the little Chapel to be taken to Rome and on March 25, 1984 - publicly - with the bishops who wanted to unite with His Holiness, made the Consecration as Our Lady requested. They then asked me if it was made as Our Lady requested, and I said, “YES.” Now it was made."

–Sr Lucia
 
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