Pope, in interview, laments 'rigidity' of youth who prefer Latin Mass [CWN]

[JimR-OCDS]

The young converts I’ve had conversations with who attend TLM or other Conservative Parishes, tend to have an ego-identity attachment to the religion.

Growing closer to Jesus Christ is rarely the reason given for their conversion or preference. Instead, it’s all about attachment to the rite’s and doctrines. After just a couple years when all this wears off, they tend to struggle with remaining Catholic and begin to look for some other group to be part of, one that isn’t so demanding.

I believe this is what the Pope was addressed in the article.

Pope Francis told Father Spadaro he wonders why some young people, who were not raised with the old Latin Mass, nevertheless prefer it.

“And I ask myself: Why so much rigidity? Dig, dig, this rigidity always hides something, insecurity or even something else. Rigidity is defensive. True love is not rigid.”

Jim

 

[Tantum_ergo]

The young converts I’ve had conversations with who attend TLM or other Conservative Parishes, tend to have an ego-identity attachment to the religion.

Growing closer to Jesus Christ is rarely the reason given for their conversion or preference. Instead, it’s all about attachment to the rite’s and doctrines. After just a couple years when all this wears off, they tend to struggle with remaining Catholic and begin to look for some other group to be part of, one that isn’t so demanding.

I believe this is what the Pope was addressed in the article.

Jim

Ah, Jim, you are indeed proving my point.

“Ego identity”. . .attachment to rites. . .

All those people. . .

You know that the shoe is also on the other foot?

In my 60 years I have known many who were stubbornly attached to the OF, wildly dismissive, hypercritical of the EF. . but you don’t think that they have an ego identity attachment? An attachment to its rites?

A rigidity with considering the OF so superior to the EF that any person, especially a young person, must be more interested in the rites and dogma and certainly not in Jesus.

Who is the rigid one?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Ah, Jim, you are indeed proving my point.

“Ego identity”. . .attachment to rites. . .

All those people. . .

You know that the shoe is also on the other foot?

In my 60 years I have known many who were stubbornly attached to the OF, wildly dismissive, hypercritical of the EF. . but you don’t think that they have an ego identity attachment? An attachment to its rites?

A rigidity with considering the OF so superior to the EF that any person, especially a young person, must be more interested in the rites and dogma and certainly not in Jesus.

Who is the rigid one?

OH sure there are those on both sides.

As St Augustine wrote, “there are those whom having found themselves Catholic, remain so because of their love for the doctrines and rites, but have yet to become Christians.”

Jim

 

[graciew]

Ah, Jim, you are indeed proving my point.

“Ego identity”. . .attachment to rites. . .

All those people. . .

You know that the shoe is also on the other foot?

In my 60 years I have known many who were stubbornly attached to the OF, wildly dismissive, hypercritical of the EF. . but you don’t think that they have an ego identity attachment? An attachment to its rites?

A rigidity with considering the OF so superior to the EF that any person, especially a young person, must be more interested in the rites and dogma and certainly not in Jesus.

Who is the rigid one?

He said “sometimes”. Sometimes.
And sometimes a young person will have to dig .
And we adults will have to dig.
For this reason,for that reason and we dig. He did not say" bury yourselves " just : dig.
Builds character and strengthens arms!

 

[Tantum_ergo]

OH sure there are those on both sides.

As St Augustine wrote, “there are those whom having found themselves Catholic, remain so because of their love for the doctrines and rites, but have yet to become Christians.”

Jim

I’m glad you acknowledge it’s a two-way street.

Now, if only people would, having acknowledged that any Catholic whatsoever can find some aspects of Catholic practice–whether it is rites, doctrines/disciplines, or whatever–to be something that they prefer, and another Catholic practice/rite/doctrine/disciplines etc something that they personally would not prefer, not assume that a Catholic who differs from him or her is to be automatically suspect of being rigid simply because of that which he or she prefers then we might wind up moving toward real unity.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

He said “sometimes”. Sometimes.
And sometimes a young person will have to dig .
And we adults will have to dig.
For this reason,for that reason and we dig. He did not say" bury yourselves " just : dig.
Builds character and strengthens arms!

I’m not questioning or criticizing Pope Francis (or indeed, anyone). I’m just noting that from my perspective, it seems as though there could be that kind of ‘rigidity’ in not just those who prefer the EF, but in those who prefer the OF as well. I think Pope Francis would want both to be ‘open’.

 

[Brendan]

No, what you write is not correct.
Personal Parishes, as you well know, do not have territorial borders.
Every parish has territorial boundaries. They can be established so that the boundaries are coterminous with the diocese/greater ecclesiastical jurisdiction boundaries – but it is wholly incorrect to say that they do not have territorial boundaries.

You are correct, I misspoke, the

It must be stressed that the majority of arrangements for provision of the vetus ordo do not involve the erection of a personal parish.

In the Archdiocese in which I live, that statement would be incorrect, as 6 of the 7 parishes that offer the EF Mass are personal parishes. Some were territorial initially, but have be redesignated by our Archbishop, or prior to him, by Cardinal Maida, as personal parishes for those who prefer the Extraordinary Form. I have no information on the canonical status of the parishes worldwide that offer the EF.

Even where a personal parish has been erected, that does not mean that it is spiritually healthy to avail oneself of it in the circumstances individuals and families find themselves.

That is true, but absent any other information, none of here can make the determination that the behavior listed is not healthy to their spirituality. If anything, that determination would be most correctly done by their canonical pastor, territorial or otherwise.

 

[graciew]

I’m not questioning or criticizing Pope Francis (or indeed, anyone). I’m just noting that from my perspective, it seems as though there could be that kind of ‘rigidity’ in not just those who prefer the EF, but in those who prefer the OF as well. I think Pope Francis would want both to be ‘open’.

I really and honestly noted he had said " sometimes ".

That is all,Tantum Ergo.
I know my own sons,and would notice their being rigid. .probably together with other indicators.
You know…" How are you,son? How are you doing? Still playing soccer? How s your friends? Still happy with your job?" . Sometimes just looking at them.
But these would me my sons, I was just thinking what would call my attention .
And yes,Tantum! Not alllll those questions together! well,in the best of cases.

 

[Randolph]

[SIGN][/SIGN]-]/-]

I could not agree with the assessment of the Holy Father more. After these many years of priesthood, time and time and time again, I have had the most negative experiences with those attached to the vetus ordo, which frankly provoked from me some of the same questions and concerns that the Holy Father expressed in this interview. I am gratified to read his assessment and I would be pleased if he would further address this, above all with the bishops.

It is my sincere hope that the expressions of the Pope on these issues is taken into account by each diocesan bishop and that, in their gatherings, they will reflect together about the matter of their subjects and the vetus ordo.

Father:

Rigidity is damaging to the soul and psychologically unhealthy. It is very important to address it. But rigidity can happen to anyone–be it to those who attend the Novus Ordo, or to those who attend the Vetus Ordo. I have attended Mass in both forms in different countries, and it is the same everywhere. I have met people who are rigid on both sides, and talked negatively about those who prefer the Mass that they don’t. That’s uncharitable and wrong.

Personally, I have had great and healthy relationships with priests who say Mass in the Vetus Ordo. I have the utmost respect and admiration for them. In fact, my spiritual director say Mass regularly in both forms. I am grateful to him as a priest, an adviser and a friend who looks out for me spiritually and personally. I am forever indebted to him for love, guidance and care. I also have close, personal friends who regularly attend the Vetus Ordo. They are among the best, well balanced, charitable and psychologically healthy people out there. We eat, pray and share our joys and sorrows together. We love the Church and set good examples for each other. It would be wrong for anybody to characterize these people and priests as “rigid” or psychologically unhealthy.

It is my hope and prayer that people in positions of authority in the Church would correctly assess and diagnose the problem of rigidity, and communicate appropriately and charitably to the sheep and to the world.

Finally, the Novus Ordo and Vetus Order were approved by the Church. They are treasures of the Church. Neither competes against the other. Let’s offer our respect and love for them.

 

[KSU]

[SIGN][/SIGN]-]/-]
Finally, the Novus Ordo and Vetus Order were approved by the Church. They are treasures of the Church. Neither competes against the other. Let’s offer our respect and love for them.

After all the foregoing, it appears we will never know what Pope Francis meant when he insisted the Mass “reformed” after the Second Vatican Council [the OF] is here to stay and “to speak of a ‘reform of the reform’ is an error.”

Does he believe there is a movement in the orthodox Church to discard the OF and replace it with the EF as some kind of “reform of the reform”? Since there is no such movement in the Church, to what is the Holy Father referring ?

Second, no one has explained why Pope Francis is concerned that some young people, who were not raised with the EF, nevertheless prefer it. What compelled him to add, “ I ask myself: Why so much rigidity"?

Obviously, some young people recognize (as do many, many older people) that the language and chant youtube.com/watch?v=F3sjlBPB1GY of the EF is more beautiful and reverent and reserved for speaking to God than the language, music and phraseology of the OF. So what? My son is one of them, and he is not rigid.

It doesn’t seem like we have been given the whole story. At least I pray that’s the case.

 

[LordHaveMercy]

Unfortunately there are, at times, hostilities between Catholics who celebrate differing rituals. It was much more hostile towards Catholics completely outside of the Latin tradition throughout history, the negative comments between the EF and OF are minor compared to that.

Still, I hear the Pope say these things and look at so many of the youth at my Parish, I just want to tell them “Keep the faith. He would love you if he knew you, he wouldn’t insult you if he knew you. Don’t give up the faith, no matter who insults you. He may lament you, but we cherish you.”

 

[dshix]

After all the foregoing, it appears we will never know what Pope Francis meant when he insisted the Mass “reformed” after the Second Vatican Council [the OF] is here to stay and “to speak of a ‘reform of the reform’ is an error.”

Does he believe there is a movement in the orthodox Church to discard the OF and replace it with the EF as some kind of “reform of the reform”? Since there is no such movement in the Church, to what is the Holy Father referring ?

Second, no one has explained why Pope Francis is concerned that some young people, who were not raised with the EF, nevertheless prefer it. What compelled him to add, “ I ask myself: Why so much rigidity"?

Obviously, some young people recognize (as do many, many older people) that the language and chant youtube.com/watch?v=F3sjlBPB1GY of the EF is more beautiful and reverent and reserved for speaking to God than the language, music and phraseology of the OF. So what? My son is one of them, and he is not rigid.

It doesn’t seem like we have been given the whole story. At least I pray that’s the case.

 

[JakeWI]

I would like to add a little bit to this conversation. I am within the “younger” of the Catholic members, being that I land in the millennial subset and in my upper 20s.

I have attended EF Masses. I find them quite beautiful and reverent. However, that being said, my Parish which is strictly in the ordinary form, has Mass that is very reverent and beautiful in itself. Our music director has even held workshops on both the OF and EF and how they compliment each other.

Looking at this entire thread, and what the Pope said, I think it could go both ways in rigidity. There is judgement passed on both sides (People who think the EF is some antique, and people who think OF is less of a Mass). I personally am glad that the Church offers both. I think it can help us grow in our faith in experiencing both with an open mind, and experiencing the fullness of what our most beautiful Church has to offer!

 

[KSU]

I would like to add a little bit to this conversation. I am within the “younger” of the Catholic members, being that I land in the millennial subset and in my upper 20s.

I have attended EF Masses. I find them quite beautiful and reverent. However, that being said, my Parish which is strictly in the ordinary form, has Mass that is very reverent and beautiful in itself. Our music director has even held workshops on both the OF and EF and how they compliment each other.

Looking at this entire thread, and what the Pope said, I think it could go both ways in rigidity. There is judgement passed on both sides (People who think the EF is some antique, and people who think OF is less of a Mass). I personally am glad that the Church offers both. I think it can help us grow in our faith in experiencing both with an open mind, and experiencing the fullness of what our most beautiful Church has to offer!

I don’t know anyone who loves the EF and who would disagree with you. But please permit me one nitpick: No orthodox Catholic would ever say the OF is less of a Mass.

 

[JakeWI]

I don’t know anyone who loves the EF and who would disagree with you. But please permit me one nitpick: No orthodox Catholic would ever say the OF is less of a Mass.

I am sure there are some out there who are anti-EF or anti-OF. I have seen some people get pretty close to that realm on either side. It does happen, especially belonging to an Archdiocese that historically is a bit more liberal, next to a Diocese that has one of the more conservative Bishops around. It is interesting to see people from both and how they interact about both forms of the Mass. I wish it wasn’t that way.

Personally, I think both forms are beautiful. The Easter Vigil at my Parish is what really turned on the “switch” for my passion for the faith, and it was done in the ordinary form. It was unlike anything I experienced, and the sorrow, beauty, and sudden joy was something that touched my innermost soul.

 

[EIF5A]

Is it disrespectful (or a sin) to receive Communion standing up with hands?

I’ve only recently converted and that’s all I’ve known (to bow beforehand). But some people have said it is wrong.

I’ve never attended TLM but if I did, I would follow the norm. But it also feels “out of place” to receive kneeling when most other people are standing at Novus Ordo Mass, kind of like sticking out.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Is it disrespectful (or a sin) to receive Communion standing up with hands?

I’ve only recently converted and that’s all I’ve known (to bow beforehand). But some people have said it is wrong.

I’ve never attended TLM but if I did, I would follow the norm. But it also feels “out of place” to receive kneeling when most other people are standing at Novus Ordo Mass, kind of like sticking out.

Most assuredly it is neither disrespectful nor a sin (!) to receive the Eucharist while standing – nor, for that matter, to receive the Most Blessed Sacrament while lying flat in a hospital bed.

Nor is it a sin or even any less appropriate to receive the Eucharist in the hand than for it to be placed in the mouth. One should follow the norms that are established – but one cannot speak of one way being worthy and another unworthy.

It is, however, these sort of absurd statements that you have heard that deserve the strongest of both condemnation and correction from the Bishops.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Is it disrespectful (or a sin) to receive Communion standing up with hands?

I’ve only recently converted and that’s all I’ve known (to bow beforehand). But some people have said it is wrong.

I’ve never attended TLM but if I did, I would follow the norm. But it also feels “out of place” to receive kneeling when most other people are standing at Novus Ordo Mass, kind of like sticking out.

Of course it is not disrespectful. In the us at least, the majority recieve that way. However, any way of reception can be done disrespectfully.

 

[KSU]

Is it disrespectful (or a sin) to receive Communion standing up with hands?

** No orthodox Catholic would say that to you. You are a Catholic now and all you have to be concerned with is what Peter and the Church say. You will hear a lot of nonsense from pretend Catholics (despite what they call themselves) and ignorant people who don’t even believe the Eucharist is the body and blood of Christ.**

I’ve only recently converted and that’s all I’ve known (to bow beforehand). But some people have said it is wrong.

I’ve never attended TLM but if I did, I would follow the norm. But it also feels “out of place” to receive kneeling when most other people are standing at Novus Ordo Mass, kind of like sticking out.

**Don’t give it a second thought; do what feels right to you in that regard at an OF Mass. Those who feel they want to kneel at an OF Mass have the right to do so, and in their eyes they are merely acknowledging that because it is Jesus Christ Himself that they are receiving, kneeling is the very least they can do. Good for them. **

 

[EIF5A]

Most assuredly it is neither disrespectful nor a sin (!) to receive the Eucharist while standing – nor, for that matter, to receive the Most Blessed Sacrament while lying flat in a hospital bed.

Nor is it a sin or even any less appropriate to receive the Eucharist in the hand than for it to be placed in the mouth. One should follow the norms that are established – but one cannot speak of one way being worthy and another unworthy.

It is, however, these sort of absurd statements that you have heard that deserve the strongest of both condemnation and correction from the Bishops.

They also have certain…opinions…about Vatican II and Pope Francis.

As a Catholic, I am bound to believe that the Holy Spirit leads the Church to not err in faith and morals. But part of me asks, If TLM was good enough for the saints, why did Mass change? What’s different now than before that necessitated the changes?

I’ve also read that the priest facing the people changes the focus from God to man.

(My semi-scrupulosity doesn’t help in these matters )