Pope, in interview, laments 'rigidity' of youth who prefer Latin Mass [CWN]

[Paganus]

Is it disrespectful (or a sin) to receive Communion standing up with hands?

I’ve only recently converted and that’s all I’ve known (to bow beforehand). But some people have said it is wrong.

I’ve never attended TLM but if I did, I would follow the norm. But it also feels “out of place” to receive kneeling when most other people are standing at Novus Ordo Mass, kind of like sticking out.

I suppose it’s all how you feel. I’ve seen careless non-ordained people toss Jesus to the floor while assisting at Mass. If I think they are going to miss my face, I will receive in the hand instead. I figure it’s better to do so than to lick crumbs off the carpet.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

They also have certain…opinions…about Vatican II and Pope Francis.

As a Catholic, I am bound to believe that the Holy Spirit leads the Church to not err in faith and morals. But part of me asks, If TLM was good enough for the saints, why did Mass change? What’s different now than before that necessitated the changes?

I’ve also read that the priest facing the people changes the focus from God to man.

(My semi-scrupulosity doesn’t help in these matters )

I have no doubt that they have opinions about Vatican II and Pope Francis.

You are a recent convert. I have been dealing with such people that hold such opinions since the 1970s. I could tell you things that would curl your hair. I shall not, however.

If it is any consolation, it was the same ilk of people who used to say the most dreadful things against the now canonised Pope Saint John XXIII and Pope Saint John Paul II as well as the now beatified Blessed Pope Paul VI. They are sad people indeed, those who would oppose the very saints of God.

I would suggest you read the documents of the Council in order to understand why the Catholic bishops of the world, gathered in ecumenical council, decreed the urgent need for reform and renewal.

You could begin with the constitution on the liturgy, Sacrosanctum Concilium.

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html

Personally, in so far as I can, I try to limit my exposure to people who say problematic things – which is easier now that I am in retirement. Those who hold outlandish opinion do not get to have access to me or they are summarily banished from my presence…other priests, not retired, now get to deal with them as I once had to.

Perhaps you should consider thoughtfully whether interacting with these people are an asset or a liability to you. On the other hand, what you have already seen does at least show you clearly the very attitude that Pope Francis spoke about.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

I suppose it’s all how you feel. I’ve seen careless non-ordained people toss Jesus to the floor while assisting at Mass. If I think they are going to miss my face, I will receive in the hand instead. I figure it’s better to do so than to lick crumbs off the carpet.

You attend Mass where people toss consecrated Hosts upon the floor?

 

[EIF5A]

I have no doubt that they have opinions about Vatican II and Pope Francis.

You are a recent convert. I have been dealing with such people that hold such opinions since the 1970s. I could tell you things that would curl your hair. I shall not, however.

If it is any consolation, it was the same ilk of people who used to say the most dreadful things against the now canonised Pope Saint John XXIII and Pope Saint John Paul II as well as the now beatified Blessed Pope Paul VI. They are sad people indeed, those who would oppose the very saints of God.

I would suggest you read the documents of the Council in order to understand why the Catholic bishops of the world, gathered in ecumenical council, decreed the urgent need for reform and renewal.

You could begin with the constitution on the liturgy, Sacrosanctum Concilium.

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html

Personally, in so far as I can, I try to limit my exposure to people who say problematic things – which is easier now that I am in retirement. Those who hold outlandish opinion do not get to have access to me or they are summarily banished from my presence…other priests, not retired, now get to deal with them as I once had to.

Perhaps you should consider thoughtfully whether interacting with these people are an asset or a liability to you. On the other hand, what you have already seen does at least show you clearly the very attitude that Pope Francis spoke about.

I didn’t really know at the time, but the parish/chapel I got confirmed in is liberal. The priest, though not teaching or promoting it, said women priests could be in the future. And when homosexuality is brought up, there’s no condemnation of behavior — almost like tacit approval, but I do not want to accuse — just something that could be perceived to be such. He also said he would never celebrate TLM. (For daily Mass, the parishioners walk up around the altar while the priest is consecrating. I didn’t know that was not allowed…I partook of the Sacrament then )

On the other hand, Pope Francis seems to be kind of reticent to speak about gay marriage or abortion…which encourages certain people to say he cares more about air conditioning than the spiritual state of people.

I really do hope Pope Francis just isn’t gifted with eloquent speech and that he’s not actually promoting the h-word (he–sy).

 

[Havard]

I didn’t really know at the time, but the parish/chapel I got confirmed in is liberal. The priest, though not teaching or promoting it, said women priests could be in the future. And when homosexuality is brought up, there’s no condemnation of behavior — almost like tacit approval, but I do not want to accuse — just something that could be perceived to be such. He also said he would never celebrate TLM. (For daily Mass, the parishioners walk up around the altar while the priest is consecrating. I didn’t know that was not allowed…I partook of the Sacrament then )

On the other hand, Pope Francis seems to be kind of reticent to speak about gay marriage or abortion…which encourages certain people to say he cares more about air conditioning than the spiritual state of people.

I really do hope Pope Francis just isn’t gifted with eloquent speech and that he’s not actually promoting the h-word (he–sy).

These are good questions, but they seem to be touching upon Liturgy and the Sacraments as well as Moral Theology. Perhaps they merit threads of their own?

 

[Don_Ruggero]

These are good questions, but they seem to be touching upon Liturgy and the Sacraments as well as Moral Theology. Perhaps they merit threads of their own?

I would not recommend that since, as formulated, it violates the clear edict of the Liturgy and Sacrament forum’s moderator:
Please don’t post complaints about any liturgy/ordained/parish. You may ask questions about the liturgy and the sacraments, but please don’t complain about what you saw or heard. Don’t post negative comments about what the Church allows, or about/directed at the ordained/religious. Complaint/negative threads/posts will be removed. Thank you, everyone, for your understanding and cooperation.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

I didn’t really know at the time, but the parish/chapel I got confirmed in is liberal. The priest, though not teaching or promoting it, said women priests could be in the future. And when homosexuality is brought up, there’s no condemnation of behavior — almost like tacit approval, but I do not want to accuse — just something that could be perceived to be such. He also said he would never celebrate TLM. (For daily Mass, the parishioners walk up around the altar while the priest is consecrating. I didn’t know that was not allowed…I partook of the Sacrament then )

On the other hand, Pope Francis seems to be kind of reticent to speak about gay marriage or abortion…which encourages certain people to say he cares more about air conditioning than the spiritual state of people.

I really do hope Pope Francis just isn’t gifted with eloquent speech and that he’s not actually promoting the h-word (he–sy).

As far as I am concerned, as a priest and a professor of theology, I find the tendency to bandy about quasi-accusations of the Pope, the successor of Peter, promoting heresy as beyond the pale…not just in terms of being offensive but beyond the point of what should be tolerated.

As for the rest, I find it a faulting by innuendo…almost like tacit approval…could be perceived…while not teaching or promoting, says…that what is one to endeavor to say about it?

The only thing I would comment upon, frankly, is regarding the vetus ordo. I had the pastoral care of an indult community many years ago. I have not used the 1962 missal since the day that pastoral responsibility was taken back by the bishop and I handed back the indult to him. Retired at this point of life, I would never offer Mass in the vetus ordo again. The decision is ultimately your priest’s prerogative not to use the vetus ordo.

Perhaps you should seek some place where there is a greater alignment between what are your preferences and what are those of the community and the priest responsible for it.

 

[pianistclare]

Thank you Father for your spot on remarks…
I’ve always found it odd that the very people who claim to know best about piety and who know tradition well have sometimes “forgotten” the laudable tradition of respecting the Popes and the very Cardinals who elect them.

Sometimes we can be a very stiff-necked people.

 

[CuriousMike]

Thank you Father for your spot on remarks…
I’ve always found it odd that the very people who claim to know best about piety and who know tradition well have sometimes “forgotten” the laudable tradition of respecting the Popes and the very Cardinals who elect them.

Sometimes we can be a very stiff-necked people.

True, but we don’t necessarily have to agree with everything they say. Of course, if you don’t agree about something, the point is not to bash and condemn them, but perhaps request clarification or respectfully say, “I don’t share that point of view.”

 

[Seamus_L]

Does anyone realise how small the Latin Mass community is worldwide ? On top of that, this interview refers to youth within that community. Exactly how tiny a demographic are we talking about here, 0.01 pct maybe.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Latin EF Mass youth are thought of as rigid… what about those youth that prefer the EVEN OLDER Greek, Copt, Ge’ez/Amharic, Armenian and/or Aramaic Liturgies?? Are they to be lamented/pitied for their rigid love of Church and Tradition?

 

[Oneofthewomen]

Latin EF Mass youth are thought of as rigid… what about those youth that prefer the EVEN OLDER Greek, Copt, Ge’ez/Amharic, Armenian and/or Aramaic Liturgies?? Are they to be lamented/pitied for their rigid love of Church and Tradition?

Really?! :doh2:

First off, there is not full context of what the Pope said.

Second, many people in this thread have said what the believe the Holy Father is getting at, based on their (my) experiences.

My guess is that the Pope is talking about rigidity from people regarding the EF, who never had any experience with it when it was the only Mass.

My experience tells me that this is very true. You can go back and read my post here

I am speaking specifically about young priests I have personal experience with. Another poster spoke of converts with the same attitudes. I have experienced that also.

It is an issue, especially in my part of the US, it needs to be discussed, and people need to stop taking it all so personally.

 

[LordHaveMercy]

Does anyone realise how small the Latin Mass community is worldwide ? On top of that, this interview refers to youth within that community. Exactly how tiny a demographic are we talking about here, 0.01 pct maybe.

Yes exactly. It makes me very sad knowing that such a small group of young people will hear that the Pope and the Successor of Peter has said these things about them. As I said before, the modern world and even the Pope may lament them, but we cherish them.

 

[Usige]

Really?! :doh2:

First off, there is not full context of what the Pope said.

Second, many people in this thread have said what the believe the Holy Father is getting at, based on their (my) experiences.

My guess is that the Pope is talking about rigidity from people regarding the EF, who never had any experience with it when it was the only Mass.

My experience tells me that this is very true. You can go back and read my post here

I am speaking specifically about young priests I have personal experience with. Another poster spoke of converts with the same attitudes. I have experienced that also.

It is an issue, especially in my part of the US, it needs to be discussed, and people need to stop taking it all so personally.

I suspect the majority of people that attend the Tridentine Mass were raised with the Mass of Paul VI. When I have had occasion to attend I would say somewhere around 70% are under 50 so the majority were born after the promulgation of the OF or have minimal memory of the time before it’s promulgation.

Are there those who one might call ridgid? Sure. I think though it speaks to only one half of the conversation. One has to ask why people raised with the OF have a deep desire to attend the EF. I don’t think it is as simple as writting them off as a fringe group of spiritual malcontents. Is there something about the form of the Tridentine Mass that people connect to on a deeper psychological level? Does the more formal ritualistic nature of the form trigger doors to their souls in ways the OF doesn’t based simply on how God wired them?

I have always said that the EF in my experience tends to attract the more contemplative or somber mass goers. Not everyone experiences or expresses love as a jubilant outward expression, but they may know God as an deep indwelling of silence instead. Just as one person might prefer an impressionist painting of a subject over say a classical painting of the same, does not mean one is better than the other, they are simply different.

Both forms of the Mass are a blessing and should not be denigrated by assuming that one is filled with those who are spiritually ill. No one seems to think twice about the Anglican use despite the fact that it also is part of the Latin Church and people often don’t interact with the geographic OF parish either. Yes, is is an ordinariate with their own diocesan like structure, but it was setup for the pastoral need of a specific group for similar reasons as I understand that Summorum Pontificum was promulgated. If you read SM, you will note that it was not promulgated for those with experience of the EF as the Anglican use was, but he specifically talks about those young people who have grown to love it despite not having experienced it as youths. The assumption had been the Tridentine Mass would wither away as older people went to their eternal rest and that is not the case. People loved the EF before the Mass of Paul VI so why should it be any different after? Beauty persists throughout the ages.

Summorum Pontificum is not even 10 years old so I don’t think the people that Pope Benedict and Pope Francis are talking about are any different. It seem there is simply a difference of opinion between the two holy men. I don’t think either is wrong, but simply have differing views. If there is a spiritual malady then it shouldn’t be blamed on the form, but should turn back to ask what is missing in pastoral care of the individuals that they seek community outside of their local area? As I said, I don’t see it as nearly cut and dry as other seem to.

 

[JimG]

The term “rigidity” had a special, and unfortunate, meaning for some past U.S. Seminary applicants, as Fr. Pokorsky attests here.

 

[Havard]

The term “rigidity” had a special, and unfortunate, meaning for some past U.S. Seminary applicants, as Fr. Pokorsky attests here.

Oh, there is definitely a rigidity dog whistle, which I’ve also experienced firsthand. Fr. Pokorsky is right to raise the issue, as there is much more to it than young people who look down on the OF. There is definitely such as thing as actual, unhealthy rigidity, and that is a prime example, but there is also such as thing as “rigidity”, being code for “not progressive enough”. “You’re not for ordination of women? Rigidity!” Etc.

As Fr. Pokorsky says, it may be more of a U.S. thing, I can’t speak for other parts of the world.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

That’s just it–we all carry our experiences with us and use them to judge. If we’re lucky/graced enough, we realize it and, without going completely backward and not using them at all, or assuming that just because we think X is the best thing since sliced bread, we have to give Y a thousand times more ‘slack’ because we do not prefer Y to start with, we try to look at things in a balanced fashion.

Now apparently quite a few people have had ‘bad’ experiences with the EF. Either they ‘suffered through them’ and are delighted to give them the 86, or they suffered from friends or relatives who tried to ‘cram it down their throats’, or all the people they knew who attended were insufferable hypocrites (as C.S. Lewis wryly noted, exactly like them themselves). . .and all the OFs they ever attended were so wonderful, perfect, spirit-filled, joyous, and all the adherents were the nicest people evuh. . .and even though they try to picture somebody just like them being at the EF and having the same feelings they do for the OF, they just can’t understand it. It is too foreign.

Of course there are those of us who have suffered the opposite way. Some of us have a hard time imagining the wonderful OF because the only time we see it is on EWTN. . .we have had decades of OFs which have been as ‘flawed’ as those who see the EF and its ‘faults’ think of the EF, and the people have been the same.

But the majority of those who post here, and the majority of those who do like the EF, are not the crazies you have seen or heard of from your aunt Rosabel. And the majority of those who like the OF are not the ‘crazies’ mentioned supposedly by rad trads.

In the words of Rodney King, “Why can’t we all just get along?”

 

[KSU]

The term “rigidity” had a special, and unfortunate, meaning for some past U.S. Seminary applicants, as Fr. Pokorsky attests here.

Thank you, Jim, for reminding me of Father Pokorsy. At one time, many Catholics like me were reeling from the blows inflicted by those who for their own agendas grossly misrepresented the intended results of Vatican Council II. As a result, we had lost our beloved liturgy, music, architecture, statues, trust in theologians and the reliable education of our children.

We were told to stop being so inflexible and naive; that everything was fine. But the world had turned upside down for orthodox Catholics, and life was not good.

Enter Pope John Paul II to the rescue at the international level, and the long, dark winter started to come to an end. A little more than a decade later came a crop of new, orthodoxy-and-fire-breathing priests who began to turn the world right-side-up again at the parish level. Young Fathers Jerry Pokorsky, Paul Scalia (son of the late Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia) and a few others became parish priests and great confessors in my diocese, and I will go to my grave believing that they were answers to my personal prayers.

Then, to top it off, Benedict XVI not only allowed EF Masses (assuming we could find one within reasonable driving distance, which was not his doing), but demanded and got a more faithful translation of the OF.

Religious aspects of life have almost returned to normal, and religious freedom in America soon will be strengthened. What could possibly go wrong?

 

[CuriousMike]

The term “rigidity” had a special, and unfortunate, meaning for some past U.S. Seminary applicants, as Fr. Pokorsky attests here.

All this continues to beg the question… What is “rigidity” in the context of the interview with Pope Francis, and this thread?

• Is the TLM and its attendants the target, or anyone with a strong, unwavering preference for any (valid) Mass?
• Or is it a word used in a subversive manner?

 

[Paganus]

You attend Mass where people toss consecrated Hosts upon the floor?

Yes, of course. At the OF, the women gather behind the altar after consecration and give each other communion and then they stand at the front of the church dropping Jesus into everyone’s hands as quickly as possible. Sometimes one or another is inattentive and Jesus is thrown on the floor. It happens quite often in my experience.