Pope, in interview, laments 'rigidity' of youth who prefer Latin Mass [CWN]

[KSU]

Frankly, I have been a witness to the underlying issues since the 1970s. The criticisms I hear against the Successor of Saint Peter in the here and now well and truly echo the reprehensible behaviour of those who so badly treated a Pope who was a saint sent by God to lead the Church. As I read certain comments in this thread, the point of Pope Francis is illustrated.

Will you please name for us the subject matter which gave rise to " the reprehensible behaviour of those who so badly treated a Pope who was a saint "? And are the echos of such reprehensible behaviour to be found on this thread?

 

[Convert_in_99]

I think it’s time to lock this thread.

I have never seen such disrespect towards a pope before as I have here as of late. To be constantly questioning his statements and “motives” behind them is just UNbelievable. The laity have been given too much freedom in discerning for themselves what is just, everyone wants to be their own pope it seems.

 

[Convert_in_99]

Will you please name for us the subject matter which gave rise to " the reprehensible behaviour of those who so badly treated a Pope who was a saint "? And are the echos of such reprehensible behaviour to be found on this thread?

I dare say that Father Ruggero is upset not so much at a particular post, but rather with the general attitude towards our Holy Father on these forums as of late. Please correct me if I’m wrong Father!

 

[CuriousMike]

I think it’s time to lock this thread.

I have never seen such disrespect towards a pope before as I have here as of late. To be constantly questioning his statements and “motives” behind them is just UNbelievable. The laity have been given too much freedom in discerning for themselves what is just, everyone wants to be their own pope it seems.

Whilst the Pope is the successor St. Peter, as Father Don has said several times, that’s not to say we haven’t had “bad eggs” before… This does not imply Pope Francis himself is “bad.”

I was under the impression Catholics are not bound to every last word of the Pope, but only to faith, morals, dogma, doctrine, ex-cathedra etc.

While I’m not endorsing specific viewpoints in this thread, I doubt Catholics are expected to believe every last word from the Pope, Bishops or Priests. They’re all human and can make mistakes in some situations. Now, if the Pope had made a statement ex-cathedra that “XYZ are rigid,” then that’s the final word, no questions - but that clearly isn’t the case here. We’re talking about an interview with the Pope, not his teachings - just his (personal, informed) opinions.

 

[dshix]

Wow. Why the hostility? I was simply explaining the possible reasoning behind the Holy Father’s statement as is the subject of this thread.

I think he was reacting to your apparent belief that the only thing important in regards to the liturgy is that it be valid. Most specifically, this statement of yours:

As long as it’s in a Catholic Church in communion with Rome, it’s valid, let’s move on to more important things.

Are there really “more important things”? The liturgy is at the center of Catholic worship. Seems like one of the most important things in the world, especially since the Church has always spoken about constantly seeking after sacredness of the liturgy. And many people, including myself, would say that the Extraordinary Form of the Mass is, in general, much better at conveying the sacred than the Ordinary Form.

Validity doesn’t answer into the question. Neither does personal preference, really. It’s an objective judgement that many people make based on the things that do and do not happen in the Extraordinary form of the Mass.

 

[Convert_in_99]

I think he was reacting to your apparent belief that the only thing important in regards to the liturgy is that it be valid.

That is patently untrue, since the Church has always spoken about the sacredness of the liturgy to be constantly sought after. And many people, including myself, would say that the Extraordinary Form of the Mass is, in general, much better at conveying the sacred than the Ordinary Form.

Validity doesn’t answer into the question. Neither does personal preference, really. It’s an objective judgement that many people make based on the things that do and do not happen in the Extraordinary form of the Mass.

I never said the Liturgy was unimportant, but the “style” is not a major concern in today’s world. If people wish to attend the EF, fine they are allowed. If people prefer the OF, that’s fine too. But now that liturgical tastes are satisfied, we move on from that to issues prevelent to our world and Church today. “The mass is ended. GO forth in peace.”

 

[Don_Ruggero]

I dare say that Father Ruggero is upset not so much at a particular post, but rather with the general attitude towards our Holy Father on these forums as of late. Please correct me if I’m wrong Father!

Actually, I am not upset, Convert in 99. What you are witnessing in many of the posts is a dynamic of rejection of submission to the Successor of Saint Peter that I have watched unfold by those at odds with the Council since the 1970s. What one can read in this thread more ably affirms than anything I could write in a post exactly what Pope Francis said to Father Spadaro.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

I think it’s time to lock this thread.

I have never seen such disrespect towards a pope before as I have here as of late. To be constantly questioning his statements and “motives” behind them is just UNbelievable. The laity have been given too much freedom in discerning for themselves what is just, everyone wants to be their own pope it seems.

I would concur that there is need of moderator review, especially against the rubric of the forum’s several rules which are not to be transgressed.

 

[Convert_in_99]

Actually, I am not upset, Convert in 99. What you are witnessing in many of the posts is a dynamic of rejection of submission to the Successor of Saint Peter that I have watched unfold by those at odds with the Council since the 1970s. What one can read in this thread more ably affirms than anything I could write in a post exactly what Pope Francis said to Father Spadaro.

I agree! We can’t be our own pope. Jesus gave us shepherds for a reason. We are His sheep and we are to follow our shepherds with trust and confidence!

 

[dshix]

I never said the Liturgy was unimportant, but the “style” is not a major concern in today’s world. If people wish to attend the EF, fine they are allowed. If people prefer the OF, that’s fine too. But now that liturgical tastes are satisfied, we move on from that to issues prevelent to our world and Church today. “The mass is ended. GO forth in peace.”

I still disagree with your idea that it is about “taste”. This idea that the difference is purely aesthetic I think misses the point.

As an example: many OF parishes across the country have completely dropped the use of Gregorian chant in the liturgy, which has “pride of place” in the liturgy. Why has this happened? Is it appropriate that it has happened? Is it a purely “aesthetic” difference between one church that uses modern hymns of praise and worship, and another church which uses the official liturgical music of the Church?

I think not.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

I think he was reacting to your apparent belief that the only thing important in regards to the liturgy is that it be valid.

The Council Fathers declared “the sacred Council declares that holy Mother Church holds all lawfully acknowledged rites to be of equal right and dignity”…so, yes, once validity is established, the various ways in which the Divine Liturgy/Mass is offered, in he East and West, are to be seen as perfectly equal, given that one is no more or no less but perfectly equal. Expressions of preference are forbidden by forum rules.

Are there really “more important things”? The liturgy is at the center of Catholic worship. Seems like one of the most important things in the world, especially since the Church has always spoken about constantly seeking after sacredness of the liturgy. And many people, including myself, would say that the Extraordinary Form of the Mass is, in general, much better at conveying the sacred than the Ordinary Form.

Validity doesn’t answer into the question. Neither does personal preference, really. It’s an objective judgement that many people make based on the things that do and do not happen in the Extraordinary form of the Mass.

While the Council Fathers rightly said, “the liturgy is the summit toward which the activity of the Church is directed; at the same time it is the font from which all her power flows” they also said in the same literary breath, “The sacred liturgy does not exhaust the entire activity of the Church” and they proceed to articulate the many other aspects of the Church’s life and work that are…important. As they say, there must be a call to conversion and there must be education before the liturgy can fulfill its proper function.

 

[Robert_Bay]

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[JHC]

So i can’t have a preference?

youtu.be/UHHf3Y8UCIg

 

[Convert_in_99]

So i can’t have a preference?

youtu.be/UHHf3Y8UCIg

Yes you can, I never said you couldn’t.

 

[Convert_in_99]

The Council Fathers declared “the sacred Council declares that holy Mother Church holds all lawfully acknowledged rites to be of equal right and dignity”…so, yes, once validity is established, the various ways in which the Divine Liturgy/Mass is offered, in he East and West, are to be seen as perfectly equal, given that one is no more or no less but perfectly equal. Expressions of preference are forbidden by forum rules.

While the Council Fathers rightly said, “the liturgy is the summit toward which the activity of the Church is directed; at the same time it is the font from which all her power flows” they also said in the same literary breath, “The sacred liturgy does not exhaust the entire activity of the Church” and they proceed to articulate the many other aspects of the Church’s life and work that are…important. As they say, there must be a call to conversion and there must be education before the liturgy can fulfill its proper function.

Exactly! Thank you for clarifying my post.

 

[Convert_in_99]

I still disagree with your idea that it is about “taste”. This idea that the difference is purely aesthetic I think misses the point.

As an example: many OF parishes across the country have completely dropped the use of Gregorian chant in the liturgy, which has “pride of place” in the liturgy. Why has this happened? Is it appropriate that it has happened? Is it a purely “aesthetic” difference between one church that uses modern hymns of praise and worship, and another church which uses the official liturgical music of the Church?

I think not.

They are both allowed so I don’t get why we have to take sides? Why not both?

 

[OraLabora]

I still disagree with your idea that it is about “taste”. This idea that the difference is purely aesthetic I think misses the point.

As an example: many OF parishes across the country have completely dropped the use of Gregorian chant in the liturgy, which has “pride of place” in the liturgy. Why has this happened? Is it appropriate that it has happened? Is it a purely “aesthetic” difference between one church that uses modern hymns of praise and worship, and another church which uses the official liturgical music of the Church?

I think not.

“Pride of place” does not mean in every parish, at every liturgy. Some small rural parishes simply do not have the resources to do justice to Gregorian chant. I know wherefrom I speak as I have been a chorister in a Gregorian schola for nearly 15 years. It takes some training to be able to execute well, and poorly executed chant is excruciating to hear. Training requires not only practice, but a keen interest in this particular form of sacred music.

But just because Ste-Rose-de-Backwater parish does not use chant, does not mean that chant does not have “pride of place” in Catholic liturgy, as any visit to one of the very many Benedictine abbeys that still use Gregorian chant would confirm.

That said there are many scholas like ours that make an effort to bring chant to OF parishes. In at least 4 cities of my province, and in Montreal, a fellow oblate and Gregorian scholar has just obtained permission to chant solemn Vespers in Gregorian chant, according to the new rite, at a parish in Montreal, on a regular (monthly for now) basis.

Between a quiet, spoken weekday Mass, a small parish Sunday Mass with more contemporary music, and a solemn Mass at a Benedictine abbey of the Solesmes congregation (using Gregorian chant in the Ordinary Form) there is a continuum of valid, licit and reverent Masses of progressive solemnity that is in accordance with the degree of solemnity and the abilities and resources of the parish or community.

In our own schola’s case, we bring chant to a different parish every month. We also sing solemn Vespers at the cathedral during Advent and Lent, and solemn Lauds on Holy Saturday. Parishioners see it as a “special occasion”. I would say that this is giving it “pride of place”, with many scholas in my province doing the same thing. We have also recruited new choristers in this manner, and thus ensure that it continues to have pride of place for generations to come.

Lastly, I would say, not singling out anyone in particular, that if folks want to hear more Gregorian chant, the way to do so is to get involved. That’s what I did. I found a schola,and joined it, not without considerable effort. In addition having to learn chant with no musical notions, rehearsals (1-3 times per month) plus our liturgies and concerts require that I drive 90 km (55 miles) each way, usually at night, and in winter. I do it out of love for the genre. If I, who had no musical notions prior to joining the schola could do it, so could anyone.

Get involved, and start or join a schola!

 

[KSU]

“Pride of place” does not mean in every parish, at every liturgy. Some small rural parishes simply do not have the resources to do justice to Gregorian chant. I know wherefrom I speak as I have been a chorister in a Gregorian schola for nearly 15 years. It takes some training to be able to execute well, and poorly executed chant is excruciating to hear. Training requires not only practice, but a keen interest in this particular form of sacred music.

But just because Ste-Rose-de-Backwater parish does not use chant, does not mean that chant does not have “pride of place” in Catholic liturgy, as any visit to one of the very many Benedictine abbeys that still use Gregorian chant would confirm.

That said there are many scholas like ours that make an effort to bring chant to OF parishes. In at least 4 cities of my province, and in Montreal, a fellow oblate and Gregorian scholar has just obtained permission to chant solemn Vespers in Gregorian chant, according to the new rite, at a parish in Montreal, on a regular (monthly for now) basis.

Between a quiet, spoken weekday Mass, a small parish Sunday Mass with more contemporary music, and a solemn Mass at a Benedictine abbey of the Solesmes congregation (using Gregorian chant in the Ordinary Form) there is a continuum of valid, licit and reverent Masses of progressive solemnity that is in accordance with the degree of solemnity and the abilities and resources of the parish or community.

In our own schola’s case, we bring chant to a different parish every month. We also sing solemn Vespers at the cathedral during Advent and Lent, and solemn Lauds on Holy Saturday. Parishioners see it as a “special occasion”. I would say that this is giving it “pride of place”, with many scholas in my province doing the same thing. We have also recruited new choristers in this manner, and thus ensure that it continues to have pride of place for generations to come.

Lastly, I would say, not singling out anyone in particular, that if folks want to hear more Gregorian chant, the way to do so is to get involved. That’s what I did. I found a schola,and joined it, not without considerable effort. In addition having to learn chant with no musical notions, rehearsals (1-3 times per month) plus our liturgies and concerts require that I drive 90 km (55 miles) each way, usually at night, and in winter. I do it out of love for the genre. If I, who had no musical notions prior to joining the schola could do it, so could anyone.

Get involved, and start or join a schola!

You are to be commended for jumping through all those hoops . Most people don’t have the time, energy or youth to accomplish what you have.

Will you agree with me that such difficulty regarding Chant at Mass is not what was envisioned by VC II, and that both St. JP II and B XVI wanted the EF to be more generally available than it is?

 

[twf]

“Pride of place” does not mean in every parish, at every liturgy. Some small rural parishes simply do not have the resources to do justice to Gregorian chant. I know wherefrom I speak as I have been a chorister in a Gregorian schola for nearly 15 years. It takes some training to be able to execute well, and poorly executed chant is excruciating to hear. Training requires not only practice, but a keen interest in this particular form of sacred music.

But just because Ste-Rose-de-Backwater parish does not use chant, does not mean that chant does not have “pride of place” in Catholic liturgy, as any visit to one of the very many Benedictine abbeys that still use Gregorian chant would confirm.

That said there are many scholas like ours that make an effort to bring chant to OF parishes. In at least 4 cities of my province, and in Montreal, a fellow oblate and Gregorian scholar has just obtained permission to chant solemn Vespers in Gregorian chant, according to the new rite, at a parish in Montreal, on a regular (monthly for now) basis.

Between a quiet, spoken weekday Mass, a small parish Sunday Mass with more contemporary music, and a solemn Mass at a Benedictine abbey of the Solesmes congregation (using Gregorian chant in the Ordinary Form) there is a continuum of valid, licit and reverent Masses of progressive solemnity that is in accordance with the degree of solemnity and the abilities and resources of the parish or community.

In our own schola’s case, we bring chant to a different parish every month. We also sing solemn Vespers at the cathedral during Advent and Lent, and solemn Lauds on Holy Saturday. Parishioners see it as a “special occasion”. I would say that this is giving it “pride of place”, with many scholas in my province doing the same thing. We have also recruited new choristers in this manner, and thus ensure that it continues to have pride of place for generations to come.

Lastly, I would say, not singling out anyone in particular, that if folks want to hear more Gregorian chant, the way to do so is to get involved. That’s what I did. I found a schola,and joined it, not without considerable effort. In addition having to learn chant with no musical notions, rehearsals (1-3 times per month) plus our liturgies and concerts require that I drive 90 km (55 miles) each way, usually at night, and in winter. I do it out of love for the genre. If I, who had no musical notions prior to joining the schola could do it, so could anyone.

Get involved, and start or join a schola!

Of course there is also plainchant in the vernacular. In my archdiocese many priests chant various parts of the Mass in English. This is exceedingly common I find - not a rarity at all.

 

[OraLabora]

Of course there is also plainchant in the vernacular. In my archdiocese many priests chant various parts of the Mass in English. This is exceedingly common I find - not a rarity at all.

Same here in French (and having just returned from Italy, there too in Italian).