Pope John Paul II 'whipped himself to feel closer to God'

[redrosetea]

Scripture was never designed to be a complete picture of anything…St Paul says hold fast to these traditions…I can’t give you verss and book I 'm not a good enough quoter

Scripture also tells us it is not the definitive account of everything…There are decades in the life of Christ we know nothing about…This problem is only a problem for those that only use the bible for their compass, throwing tradition out the door

Christ was a Jew believe me ,He would have understood and respected, and followed TRADITION…He lived and died as an observant Jew

 

[JReducation]

What Red says is very true. John reminds of of this in his closing chapter of his Gospel. He tells us that Jesus said and did much that was not written. This is where Sacred Tradition comes in. It’s interesting that it is John of all people who is saying this. Because we have letters, sermons, theological statements by many of the early Fathers who knew John or knew John’s disciples. and received infallible teachings from John via the oral tradition and handed them down for several generations until it was finally written by someone even as late as the fourth century. Yet, even though some of these teachings were not committed to paper until the 4th century, they were held to be infallible teachings.

The best examples that we can find for these are two:

1. The hypostatic union: it is not mentioned in scritpure or explained. However, it was held by the Church as a dogma and fianlly written down after the Councils of Nicea and Chalcedon in the 4th century. It took 400 years for the world to see in writing that Jesus is truly God and Man and that the two natures are complete, distinguishable and inseparable, but not blended. None of this is in the bible. The bible simple says that he is the promised Messiah and the Son of God, which can be interpreted very literally, but incorrectly.
2. The Trinity: it is not in the bible. The Bible speaks about the Father and the Spirit. It is the Son who does most of the sepaking in the New Testament. But the early Church held to the doctrine of the Trinity and that the Trinity was present at the moment of Creation. This was inspired truth that is infallible, but not included in the Sacred Texts. It was included in the writings of the Fathers and explained by the Fathers that the Trinity is one God-head with three persons who are consubstantial… If we look closely, the Trinity is an infallible doctrine that is handed down to us through Sacred Tradition.

As far as the penitential practices of the early Church and the writings of Paul regarding traditions, we have to be very careful. Paul is not abolishing the Jewish tradition. He was speaking about the traditions that were no longer necessary, because the world had received the promised Messiah and those traditions that were given to Israel to prepare them for the coming of the Messiah were not longer needed. Once the Messiah comes, the preparatory rituals are obsolete. But Paul did not abolish all of the rituals, laws and theology of the Old Testament. Otherwise, he would have blown the 10 Commandments out of the water, the mass, the sacraments and the whole concept of the the Covenant.

The practice of penance predates Christ. We see Jonah speak to Nineveh about the need for penance. We see how Nineveh is converted through the wearing of sack cloth, ashes, fasting and other penances. Even as far back as Jonah, we already see the value of corporal discipline as a way of atonement and as a recognition of God’s power. It was also a sign of the person’s faith. We saw David too. David was not a nice man. But he becomes a saint because he atones for his sins. He shows his atonement through many corporal penances.

If we argue that none of the OT practices and disciplines are part of the Christian faith, then it begs the question, why do we include the OT in our canon of scripture? If it’s useless, let’s trim down the scriptures to the NT only and put those other books into a library as history books.

We know that the early martyrs of the Church practiced great corporal penances. The Desert Fathers and the Church Fathers wrote about them in their letters and sermons. When they write about them, they are not discouraging them. In fact, they are encouraging them. The use of the discipline goes way back and we have no idea when it began. It may even predate Jesus.

As to the question whether Jesus used the disciplien, that question is invalid, because Jesus and his mother were free of sin. There is no need for them to do these penances. Jesus atones for the sins of others, not for his own. He has none. But we do see in Jesus a free choice to take on suffering for the sake of the beloved. As he said that he would lay down his life and take it up again, this is what the ascetical person does. He imitates Christ’s actions by adopting Christ’s love. The ascetic lays down his life, no one takes it from him. He uses corporal and other forms of atonement, freely just as his master did. In this way, he is conformed to Christ. Obviously, this is not enough. There is a lot more that goes into being conformed to Christ. But it’s a step in the right direction. The goal on the spiritual journey is to conform to Christ.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[gtrenewed]

Scripture was never designed to be a complete picture of anything…St Paul says hold fast to these traditions…I can’t give you verss and book I 'm not a good enough quoter

Scripture also tells us it is not the definitive account of everything…There are decades in the life of Christ we know nothing about…This problem is only a problem for those that only use the bible for their compass, throwing tradition out the door

Christ was a Jew believe me ,He would have understood and respected, and followed TRADITION…He lived and died as an observant Jew

Scripture tells us it is a complete picture of salvation. Missing decades are not important. What is important is salvation.

This problem you refer to is self beating I assume. We all follow traditions but since self beating is not confirmed in Scripture, it cannot be confirmed in Sacred Tradition, and other traditions may or may not be of God. Scripture says that Jesus found this to be true in His time on earth and that He did not follow the traditions in place at the time that were not of God, that is one thing that got Him in trouble with the Jewish authorities. He was an observant Jew, but only of the traditions that were of God. Jesus said “the traditions of men make the Word of God of no effect.” This is my contention with self beating. It does not produce Godly results because it is a man made tradition not of God. I contend Scripture teaches against it and that Sacred Tradition also should if it is the words of Jesus.

Paul warned his churches not to follow the practices of some teachers but to follow the practices he taught. Paul was not giving carte blanche to all traditions for if you study the Scriptures you will see many traditions/practices he taught against. Not all teachers at the time had the same opinion on what it meant to be Christian so they introduced practices (traditions) that Paul felt went against the heart of the Gospel and were merely fleshy rules not from God. I contend that self beating is one such practice.

 

[gtrenewed]

Yet, even though some of these teachings were not committed to paper until the 4th century, they were held to be infallible teachings.

The best examples that we can find for these are two:

1. The hypostatic union: it is not mentioned in scritpure or explained. However, it was held by the Church as a dogma and fianlly written down after the Councils of Nicea and Chalcedon in the 4th century.
2. The Trinity: it is not in the bible.

I can find in the OT and the NT that Jesus is both Divine and man. I do not find this very difficult at all. What the council at the time had to contend with was false teachings about Jesus. They came together and in unity determined that this was true once and for all.
While the Trinity word is not in Scripture, the word God Head is and both in the OT and NT it is clear that our God is multiple in persons but is one God. Peter talked of being in majestic Glory where God confirmed Jesus and John talks of the Holy Spirit. So in many places we have the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit as the God Head.

But Paul did not abolish all of the rituals, laws and theology of the Old Testament. Otherwise, he would have blown the 10 Commandments out of the water, the mass, the sacraments and the whole concept of the the Covenant.

I did not say Paul did. He used them to teach that Jesus was the Messiah but he did say that the old gives way to the new. The old was incomplete but the new is complete in Jesus. That is why self beating does not gain spiritual benefit but other bodily disciplines can.

If we argue that none of the OT practices and disciplines are part of the Christian faith, then it begs the question, why do we include the OT in our canon of scripture? If it’s useless, let’s trim down the scriptures to the NT only and put those other books into a library as history books.

This is a smokescreen arguement. Paul taught that Jesus was the Messiah from the OT, it is our heritage. But it does not teach that self beating produces Godly results.

We know that the early martyrs of the Church practiced great corporal penances. The Desert Fathers and the Church Fathers wrote about them in their letters and sermons. When they write about them, they are not discouraging them.

Corporal (bodily) discipline is Scriptual. Self beating is not.

As to the question whether Jesus used the disciplien, that question is invalid, because Jesus and his mother were free of sin.

I confronted that question because an early post said that Jesus did self beat.

There is no need for them to do these penances. Jesus atones for the sins of others, not for his own. He has none. But we do see in Jesus a free choice to take on suffering for the sake of the beloved

My point exactly. Jesus is the atonement. We cannot atone for anything. That is the Gospel - Jesus is the free gift of atonement. He freely did this by subjecting Himself to the beating by others - not self beating but free will in accepting the Fathers Will.

As he said that he would lay down his life and take it up again, this is what the ascetical person does.

Again I agree but not by self beating only by discipline’s other than that because Scripture does not confirm this method as it does the others.

The ascetic lays down his life, no one takes it from him. He uses corporal and other forms of atonement

,

This is where I believe you error. Jesus is the atonement. We cannot atone for anything. We receive the atonement. We use discipline to better hear God on the direction of our spiritual journey but not to atone, that is the difference between new and old covenants.

Obviously, this is not enough. There is a lot more that goes into being conformed to Christ. But it’s a step in the right direction. The goal on the spiritual journey is to conform to Christ.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Conform to Christ is taught in Scripture. We are to become so opposite the world that the world hates us and wants to get rid of us. Some get there in matyrdom alot of us have not but we should be on that path. Self beating does not makes us more spiritual, but disciplines do. Again disciplines are our attempt to quiet our flesh nature in order to hear God and then we will bear fruit. If we allow others to beat us then there would be merit. Self beating is not the same as fasting. Penance is not atonement in the new covenant it is our coming to an understanding on how we are not spiritual but worldly in a given area. If we are doing penance for atonement it is not necessary. Penance is necessary to hear God not to atone for Jesus atoned for everything in our lives. We must conform to that gift as we progress but we do not have to atone.

 

[redrosetea]

Scripture tells us it is a complete picture of salvation. Missing decades are not important. What is important is salvation.

This problem you refer to is self beating I assume. We all follow traditions but since self beating is not confirmed in Scripture, it cannot be confirmed in Sacred Tradition, and other traditions may or may not be of God. Scripture says that Jesus found this to be true in His time on earth and that He did not follow the traditions in place at the time that were not of God, that is one thing that got Him in trouble with the Jewish authorities. He was an observant Jew, but only of the traditions that were of God. Jesus said “the traditions of men make the Word of God of no effect.” This is my contention with self beating. It does not produce Godly results because it is a man made tradition not of God. I contend Scripture teaches against it and that Sacred Tradition also should if it is the words of Jesus.

Paul warned his churches not to follow the practices of some teachers but to follow the practices he taught. Paul was not giving carte blanche to all traditions for if you study the Scriptures you will see many traditions/practices he taught against. Not all teachers at the time had the same opinion on what it meant to be Christian so they introduced practices (traditions) that Paul felt went against the heart of the Gospel and were merely fleshy rules not from God. I contend that self beating is one such practice.

That is just your opinion not the teachings of our church…Frankly I never trust anything that doesn’t come from our magesterium…We have existed for 2000 years I think we know what we are talking about…You don’t have to agree ,but don’t bother trying to convince me cause ,I don’t buy things like the Brooklyn Bridge

Protestants have a very limited view of what went on before Luther in my opinion and a very stilted one too

 

[Benadam]

Conform to Christ is taught in Scripture. We are to become so opposite the world that the world hates us and wants to get rid of us. Some get there in matyrdom alot of us have not but we should be on that path. Self beating does not makes us more spiritual, but disciplines do. Again disciplines are our attempt to quiet our flesh nature in order to hear God and then we will bear fruit. If we allow others to beat us then there would be merit. Self beating is not the same as fasting. Penance is not atonement in the new covenant it is our coming to an understanding on how we are not spiritual but worldly in a given area. If we are doing penance for atonement it is not necessary. Penance is necessary to hear God not to atone for Jesus atoned for everything in our lives. We must conform to that gift as we progress but we do not have to atone.

When we conform to Christ we reach up to Him. Jesus returns our effort by reaching down and sharing His life with us more fully as we are able. His work is an eternal work because He is an eternal being. When we have become a friend of His rather than a servant He may give us the same cup to drink that He drank. The Apostles drank the cup as many many nameless Christians who followed them. If we drink the same cup why would the power that flowed from it then not be made present now? You know what’s in the cup? The blood of Christ. It’s an eternal cup of His blood, blood of the New Covenant. The works that Christ did are works we are to do. Why would they not make present the same salvific power that He made active then ? They are active in Him why wouldn’t they be active in Him as He operates in us?

Christ’s body was not in rebellion to His will as ours is. We suffer involuntary movements of our flesh, His was in perfect obedience. Christ is not our model when it comes to dicipline.

Our models are those who came before us. They teach us to rejoice when persecuted, rejoice for the opportunity to forgive, for forgiveness adds power to our prayer. Power for what? Steven, the first martyr, followed Jesus all the way to the cross. Like His Lord, he prayed that those who were killing him not be held accountable. The person most accountable of them was a man named Saul. I would say that Scripture reveals Jesus sharing His cup of blood with Steven. It also reveals St Steven extending it’s power of salvation to Saul of Tarsus. Christ came for the forgiveness of sins. This is the power Christ shares with us when we drink the cup of His blood.

Those who are close to God are all the more aware of the rebellion of the flesh. They are all the more aware of how precious is the grace to be near Him. The more the Lord is our shepard the more we shall not want. Our fallen flesh forever threatens to usurp our desire for God with it’s temporary needs. We need to be good at subjecting it to our will and this is where being accustomed to some mortification is necessary. If our environment doesn’t offer the level of mortification to train us it is a good thing to inflict it ourselves.

 

[JReducation]

I can find in the OT and the NT that Jesus is both Divine and man. I do not find this very difficult at all. What the council at the time had to contend with was false teachings about Jesus. They came together and in unity determined that this was true once and for all.
While the Trinity word is not in Scripture, the word God Head is and both in the OT and NT it is clear that our God is multiple in persons but is one God. Peter talked of being in majestic Glory where God confirmed Jesus and John talks of the Holy Spirit. So in many places we have the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit as the God Head.

I did not say Paul did. He used them to teach that Jesus was the Messiah but he did say that the old gives way to the new. The old was incomplete but the new is complete in Jesus. That is why self beating does not gain spiritual benefit but other bodily disciplines can.

This is a smokescreen arguement. Paul taught that Jesus was the Messiah from the OT, it is our heritage. But it does not teach that self beating produces Godly results.

Corporal (bodily) discipline is Scriptual. Self beating is not.

I confronted that question because an early post said that Jesus did self beat.

My point exactly. Jesus is the atonement. We cannot atone for anything. That is the Gospel - Jesus is the free gift of atonement. He freely did this by subjecting Himself to the beating by others - not self beating but free will in accepting the Fathers Will.

Again I agree but not by self beating only by discipline’s other than that because Scripture does not confirm this method as it does the others.

This is where I believe you error. Jesus is the atonement. We cannot atone for anything. We receive the atonement. We use discipline to better hear God on the direction of our spiritual journey but not to atone, that is the difference between new and old covenants.

Conform to Christ is taught in Scripture. We are to become so opposite the world that the world hates us and wants to get rid of us. Some get there in matyrdom alot of us have not but we should be on that path. Self beating does not makes us more spiritual, but disciplines do. Again disciplines are our attempt to quiet our flesh nature in order to hear God and then we will bear fruit. If we allow others to beat us then there would be merit. Self beating is not the same as fasting. Penance is not atonement in the new covenant it is our coming to an understanding on how we are not spiritual but worldly in a given area. If we are doing penance for atonement it is not necessary. Penance is necessary to hear God not to atone for Jesus atoned for everything in our lives. We must conform to that gift as we progress but we do not have to atone.

Man was created to conform to Christ in all things and to united to him in every way possible. Therefore, for a man to unite physical suffering to the sufferings of Christ, whether it be through the use of the discipline, fasting, or martyrdom, is an act of love. It would be heresy to say that an act of love for the Son of God bears no fruit.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[gtrenewed]

Man was created to conform to Christ in all things and to united to him in every way possible. Therefore, for a man to unite physical suffering to the sufferings of Christ, whether it be through the use of the discipline, fasting, or martyrdom, is an act of love. It would be heresy to say that an act of love for the Son of God bears no fruit.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

It is the intention of the heart that bears the fruit. The act of self beating goes against everything I read in Scripture. The one doing this act may be motivated by love, I contend that it is misguided but if the one doing the act is in Jesus, his very intention brings that reward.

Romans 12:1 says to present our bodies as a living and holy sacrifice. Paul using the OT example here knew that the sarificial lamb had neither spot nor blemish. Romans 13:9 says that if we love our neighbors as ourselves we fulfill the OT commandments. In these two examples, we would never beat the lamb nor our neighbor, hence we should never beat ourselves.

These scriptures are added to the many I have already submitted. I would never want to judge the heart of the one doing the self beating and if I have come across as doing that I ask your forgiveness. But I do judge the act as weighed against Scripture for I still contend that we can judge tradition by Scripture.

Other bodily disciplines are supported by Scripture. I can understand the state of mind that drives one to self beat and I admire that dedication to the Lord. But as I balance the act with Scripture I see that the act is not necessary to accomplish maturity in the Spirit. I have posted on this thread to give the opinion of a cradle Catholic pre Vat II who found the joy of salvation in the Scriptures. This does not take away from the Church, nor should it cause consternation to members of the Church. We should rejoice in the joy of our salvation and with fear and trembling walk out this salvation as taught in Scripture.

I am not a swindler trying to sell the Brooklyn Bridge to ‘redrosetea’ nor a heretic nor one that wants to throw away traditions but a sojourner and a seeker of the Jesus way of life willing to share what I have learned. God Bless.

 

[JReducation]

It is the intention of the heart that bears the fruit. The act of self beating goes against everything I read in Scripture. The one doing this act may be motivated by love, I contend that it is misguided but if the one doing the act is in Jesus, his very intention brings that reward.

Romans 12:1 says to present our bodies as a living and holy sacrifice. Paul using the OT example here knew that the sarificial lamb had neither spot nor blemish. Romans 13:9 says that if we love our neighbors as ourselves we fulfill the OT commandments. In these two examples, we would never beat the lamb nor our neighbor, hence we should never beat ourselves.

These scriptures are added to the many I have already submitted. I would never want to judge the heart of the one doing the self beating and if I have come across as doing that I ask your forgiveness. But I do judge the act as weighed against Scripture for I still contend that we can judge tradition by Scripture.

Other bodily disciplines are supported by Scripture. I can understand the state of mind that drives one to self beat and I admire that dedication to the Lord. But as I balance the act with Scripture I see that the act is not necessary to accomplish maturity in the Spirit. I have posted on this thread to give the opinion of a cradle Catholic pre Vat II who found the joy of salvation in the Scriptures. This does not take away from the Church, nor should it cause consternation to members of the Church. We should rejoice in the joy of our salvation and with fear and trembling walk out this salvation as taught in Scripture.

I am not a swindler trying to sell the Brooklyn Bridge to ‘redrosetea’ nor a heretic nor one that wants to throw away traditions but a sojourner and a seeker of the Jesus way of life willing to share what I have learned. God Bless.

Always remember, not every revelation is included in scripture. Scripture is revelation, but so is sacred tradition. We do not juxtapose one form of revelation against the other, but we take them together as a package. Also, don’t ever forget that revelation comes through the teaching Magisterium of the Church too.

So what we have is Divine and infallible revelation coming to us from three sources and the order in which it came to us was: Church, Sacred Tradition and Scripture. All three must be taken as a whole, not examined against each other.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[vacanebrake]

I just heard/read this the other day and was kind of surprised. However, as I thought more about it and the number of Saints that also used discipline it really isn’t to surprising after all. I have been using the book Divine Intimacy it my evening meditation and this evening was Chapter 92 (page 271) Corporal Mortification. It is far from the last word on the activity, but the one thing that stands out is this mortification is only permitted under direction of your confessor. The body/flesh along w/ the devil are a hard combination to stay ahead of. Though there are several reason I have read for carrying out discipline, the number one reason most cited is temptations of the flesh. Once had a priest tell me that the sexual drive disappears as a temptation to priests 3 days after they die. If it was a easy life everybody would be doing it. Whether a person carries out corporal mortification on self is between him, his confessor, and God. :heaven::bible1::twocents:

Peace & all good

 

[JReducation]

I just heard/read this the other day and was kind of surprised. However, as I thought more about it and the number of Saints that also used discipline it really isn’t to surprising after all. I have been using the book Divine Intimacy it my evening meditation and this evening was Chapter 92 (page 271) Corporal Mortification. It is far from the last word on the activity, but the one thing that stands out is this mortification is only permitted under direction of your confessor. The body/flesh along w/ the devil are a hard combination to stay ahead of. Though there are several reason I have read for carrying out discipline, the number one reason most cited is temptations of the flesh. Once had a priest tell me that the sexual drive disappears as a temptation to priests 3 days after they die. If it was a easy life everybody would be doing it. Whether a person carries out corporal mortification on self is between him, his confessor, and God. :heaven::bible1::twocents:

Peace & all good

I just wanted to add, that if you have a spiritual director who is trained in the mystical life, he or she can also authorize it, as long as they monitor it. So can a religious superior, if you belong to a religious community. The reason for this shift is that diocesan priests are longer required to study Christian spirituality in the seminary. It’s now an elective for them, because they are not destined to become religious. Some do take the course and others opt for pastoral counseling, because it’s more practical for parish ministry. Only religious are required to study it.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Brickmaker]

The Times & The Sunday Times
(Plinio Lepri/AP)
Pope John Paul II regularly whipped himself as an act of penance

The late Pope John Paul II, who has been put on the fast track to sainthood by the Vatican, regularly whipped himself as an act of penance to feel closer to God, and signed a secret document saying that would step down as pontiff if he became incurably ill, according to a new book.

Why a Saint? by Monsignor Slawomir Oder, the Vatican “postulator” in charge of the canonisation process, says the Polish-born Pope performed self flagellation as a bishop in Krakow and continued to do so in the Vatican after being elected Pope in 1978.

“In his wardrobe, among his vestments, there hung on a clothes hanger a special belt for trousers which he used as a whip,” Monsignor Oder says. He said self flagellation was “an instrument of Christian perfection” emulating the sufferings of Jesus Christ.

He added that in Poland the former Bishop Karol Wojtyla often slept on the bare floor to practice self-denial and asceticism, often disturbing his bed in the morning to pretend he had slept in it and so avoid drawing attention to his act of penitence.

The fact that John Paul whipped himself in “bodily penance” was first revealed last November by Sister Tobiana Sobodka, a Polish nun who worked for Pope John Paul in his Vatican apartment and at the papal summer residence at Castel Gandolfo in the hills south of Rome.

In Santo Subito (A Saint Now) by Andrea Tornielli, the Pope’s biographer and Vatican correspondent of Il Giornale, Sister Sobodka, who belongs to the Order of the Sacred Heart of Jesus said “We would hear it – we were in the next room at Castel Gandolfo. You could hear the sound of the blows when he would flagellate himself. He did it when he was still capable of moving on his own."

In 1986, in his annual Letter to Priests, John Paul wrote: “What one must see in these forms of penance – which, unfortunately, our times are not accustomed to – are the motives: the love of God and the conversion of sinners.” Saints who flagellated themselves include St. Francis of Assisi, St. Teresa of Avila, St. Ignatius of Loyola, Mother Teresa and St. Thomas More.

Last month Pope Benedict XVI recognised John Paul II’s “heroic virtues”, a step towards beatification, which is expected in the autumn after the Pope has approved a miracle attributed to John Paul involving a French nun inexplicably cured of Parkinson’s disease after praying to him. This will then be followed by canonisation, which requires proof of a second miracle.

Monsignor Oder confirms that in 1989 John Paul, who suffered from Parkinson’s disease, prepared a document stating that he would resign “in the case of infirmity which is presumed incurable, long-lasting and which impedes me from sufficiently carrying out the functions of my apostolic ministry.” Popes are normally elected for life.

The last Pope to step down voluntarily was Celestine V in 1294. Pope John Paul asked Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, then head of the Vatican’s Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and now Pope Benedict, to study the theological implications of papal resignation.

The book also says John Paul forgave Mehmet Ali Agca, his would-be assassin, in the ambulance on the way to the hospital moments after he was shot on May 13, 1981, in St. Peter’s Square. Agca was released from prison in Turkey this month and has vowed to pray at John Payul’s tomb in Rome.

The book also reports for the first time that John Paul initially thought that his attacker was a member of the Red Brigades, the extreme left wing group which carried out a campaign of murder and kidnapping in the 1970s and 80s, known in Italy as “The Years of Lead”.

Pope Benedict put John Paul on the fast track for sainthood shortly after his death in April 2005 death by waiving the customary five-year waiting period before the beatification and canonisation process can begin.

Source -
timesonline.co.uk

WOW. Just WOW

 

[gladbutterfly]

Quote
7. These paractices are symbols and rituals. These rituals are as old as Adam. When they are practiced under guidance of a spiritual master, they make the spiritual life much simpler.

1. Finally, the fact that John Paul and other great saints have practiced such rites of self-discipline has to be proclaimed. They have no place in secracy. How else can saints be role models, if their response to the call to holiness is censored?
   Unquote

Could you say a little about how these practices make the spiritual life much simpler? I agree that there should be no secrecy about it, because people naturally think the worst of something that is hidden. It’s a discipline, like yoga, and once the purposes and methods are understood, there will be less for the ‘talking heads’ to chatter on about.