Pope John Paul II 'whipped himself to feel closer to God'

  • Thread starter Thread starter KC91
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
The book notes that the Holy Father had a sweet tooth and has other insights into the Pope’s personality: He once answered a religious who expressed her “concern” for “Your Holiness”: “I am also concerned about my holiness!”
Click to expand...
Great sense of humour:thumbsup:
 
To understand this, we need to udnerstand several points.
  1. All men are called to sanctity.
  2. God is infinite. Therefore, there is room for us to feel closer to God and to seek to travel into God’s life. Souls who respond to the call to sanctity, will seek to go deeper into God’s life.
  3. Penance, if understood correctly is not just atonement for sins (personal or those of others). Penance is also a conversion or change in a person. The person of penance is constantly working on becoming more like Christ. St. Francis said clearly when he prayed “Lord, let me suffer in my body what you suffered on the cross and let me love you as you loved me from the cross.” The person of penance is a person who constantly tries to share in Christ’s suffering and Christ’s love.
  4. It is impossible for a man or woman who does not not already feel close to God seek God. But the person who feels God very close to him, will want more of him, like the lover wants more of the beautiful woman with whom he is in love. If suffering what Christ suffered is a means to be closer to the God whom one loves and who you know loves you, then you want to be closer and to experience more of him.
  5. The only way to get close to him is to be more like him. This means that we must change, convert, which means that we do penance, not because we feel guilt, but because we feel great love.
  6. Corporal penances are not a form of hatred of the body. They are a method of exercising discipline over the body. Love does not rule out discipline. A parent who does not discipline his children does not love them. The same goes for a man who does not discipline his body.
  7. These paractices are symbols and rituals. These rituals are as old as Adam. When they are practiced under guidance of a spiritual master, they make the spiritual life much simpler.
  8. Finally, the fact that John Paul and other great saints have practiced such rites of self-discipline has to be proclaimed. They have no place in secracy. How else can saints be role models, if their response to the call to holiness is censored?
Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I can name three women I know personally who regularly have a tube shoved up their bum to shed five pounds. I can name five more who get injections of a neurotoxin IN THEIR FACES to prevent wrinkles. My own dear sweet mother had EYELINER TATTOOED ON HER EYELIDS. (She still, by the way, thinks tattoos are for freaks and troublemakers, never mind she has TWO on her face now!)

And fellas, you’re not off the hook either. I know one guy who took a potato chip out of a mouse trap WITH HIS TONGUE because ‘everyone thought it would be funny’. My own husband, bless his soul, drank a shot once of vodka, curdled milk and tuna fish because he wanted to prove that doing so would not make him puke. He was proven wrong, by the way.

My point is, what ALL of these people were doing things physically were FAR worse that what JPII did, and none were doing it to get closer to God. So, you’ll excuse me for not even batting an eyelash at JPII’s actions. At least what he was doing was for some higher purpose! Besides, I thought he was the bees knees before this anyway. 🙂
 
All I perceive is a holy man whose zealous faith was more suited to an earlier time, yet also because of this fact, I see the greatest evangelist of the age. That he did this in private with no thought for self-glorification, demonstrates the humble, sincere nature of the act. Perhaps he did it solely for our benefit. Recall how his silent prayers would radiate energy, as if you could feel that he was praying for all of sinful humanity. He was a man moved by a higher force than our own understanding can comprehend. Whatever he did, be assured it was done as an act of sublime holiness. Close your eyes and recollect his smiling face. What you feel when you do this is evidence of what he was…a holy man; and what he will become…a saint.
 
There are many people in the world today who engage in cutting behavior. I can’t relate at all personally, but I get that impression that one aspect is a cry for some kind of spiritual experience.

The Catholic Church in her wisdom and her greath breadth and depth, has a discipline for this kind of behavior too.

There is a potential faith group that the saints are reaching out to. I don’t need to understand.

Let it be.
 
John Paul II whipped himself to feel closer to God ,love for God drives you to extreme actions all you think about is finding an action that brings you more closer to that centre. .and inflicting pain on yourself to get closer to God someone might think you are insane but no you are not it s that you are living a very beautiful experience with God that few can understand, for example a mother she hugs her child ,kiss her ,feed her but then time comes to lay her down to sleep but if this child is in pain her mum won’t let go of her and may be our dear Pope wanted to stay for a long time in the arms of Gods love that.s one reason for whipping himself ,to stay in pain maybe he wanted to be held that close and the other reason is to understand more what our Dear lord went through for the love of u. Our lord suffered from the hands of others if we will never reach that height of whipping ourselves but we can rest our minds that we are going to suffer it from the hands of others and become saints too.
 
Fitz said:
I don’t like hearing about it, it seems crazy. I don’t think it does his cause to sainthood any good, does it? I mean, it seems extreme.
Click to expand...
Fitz, did you see the movie “The Passion of the Christ”? I, as I’m sure most of us have, grew up learning how Jesus suffered for us, but as much as we took it to our heart as we were being told, it became physical and real to me in that movie. So much so that I wept and asked God over and over to let me take his pain.
Nothing like that has ever happen to me before. Maybe John Paul II experienced something similar and flogged himself to take some of Jesus’ pain.
 
JReducation said:
To understand this, we need to udnerstand several points.
  1. All men are called to sanctity.
  2. God is infinite. Therefore, there is room for us to feel closer to God and to seek to travel into God’s life. Souls who respond to the call to sanctity, will seek to go deeper into God’s life.
  3. Penance, if understood correctly is not just atonement for sins (personal or those of others). Penance is also a conversion or change in a person. The person of penance is constantly working on becoming more like Christ. St. Francis said clearly when he prayed “Lord, let me suffer in my body what you suffered on the cross and let me love you as you loved me from the cross.” The person of penance is a person who constantly tries to share in Christ’s suffering and Christ’s love.
  4. It is impossible for a man or woman who does not not already feel close to God seek God. But the person who feels God very close to him, will want more of him, like the lover wants more of the beautiful woman with whom he is in love. If suffering what Christ suffered is a means to be closer to the God whom one loves and who you know loves you, then you want to be closer and to experience more of him.
  5. The only way to get close to him is to be more like him. This means that we must change, convert, which means that we do penance, not because we feel guilt, but because we feel great love.
  6. Corporal penances are not a form of hatred of the body. They are a method of exercising discipline over the body. Love does not rule out discipline. A parent who does not discipline his children does not love them. The same goes for a man who does not discipline his body.
  7. These paractices are symbols and rituals. These rituals are as old as Adam. When they are practiced under guidance of a spiritual master, they make the spiritual life much simpler.
  8. Finally, the fact that John Paul and other great saints have practiced such rites of self-discipline has to be proclaimed. They have no place in secracy. How else can saints be role models, if their response to the call to holiness is censored?
Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Click to expand...
Well said. Thanks. 😉
 
Tsuwano said:
Pope John Paul II wouldn’t be the only saint who has practiced flagellation in penance for his sins. Indeed, during the era in which he was a seminarian, I wouldn’t be surprised if it had been required, or at least encouraged, of all seminarians in most of the world’s seminaries.
Click to expand...
Teresa of Avila, for one?
 
Tsuwano said:
Pope John Paul II wouldn’t be the only saint who has practiced flagellation in penance for his sins. Indeed, during the era in which he was a seminarian, I wouldn’t be surprised if it had been required, or at least encouraged, of all seminarians in most of the world’s seminaries.
Click to expand...
Actually, the discipline is part of religious life. John Paul II was not a religious. He was a secular. He studied in a secular seminary for a specific diocese. Seculars are not bound to all the rules that govern the consecrated life. However, there have been many secular deacons, priests, bishops and popes who have adopted many practices from religious lfie. St. John Vianney is one of them, because they were useful for them.

But these kinds of disciplines are not required of secular seminarians. Secular seminarians have always followed the same rules of discipline as the laity. Whatever discipline was in place for the laity, that what a secular seminarian, deacon, priest, bishop or pope is bound to follow, even to this day. Remember, even though they are clerics, they don’t want to give up being part of the secular world. The Church does not want them to do so either. It’s the old paradigm of being in the world, but not of the world.

The religious are an entirely different package. But that’s not for this thread. Suffice it to say that John Paul borrowed this from the religious orders because it met a spiritual need. This was most probably guided by either a member of a religious order or a secular priest who was well versed in the spirituality of religious life. You can’t engage in this kind of discipline without guidance. If you do, you run the risk of not achieving discipline. You’ll either be too laxed or too harsh.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
JReducation said:
Actually, the discipline is part of religious life. John Paul II was not a religious. He was a secular. He studied in a secular seminary for a specific diocese. Seculars are not bound to all the rules that govern the consecrated life. However, there have been many secular deacons, priests, bishops and popes who have adopted many practices from religious lfie. St. John Vianney is one of them, because they were useful for them.

But these kinds of disciplines are not required of secular seminarians. Secular seminarians have always followed the same rules of discipline as the laity. Whatever discipline was in place for the laity, that what a secular seminarian, deacon, priest, bishop or pope is bound to follow, even to this day. Remember, even though they are clerics, they don’t want to give up being part of the secular world. The Church does not want them to do so either. It’s the old paradigm of being in the world, but not of the world.

The religious are an entirely different package. But that’s not for this thread. Suffice it to say that John Paul borrowed this from the religious orders because it met a spiritual need. This was most probably guided by either a member of a religious order or a secular priest who was well versed in the spirituality of religious life. You can’t engage in this kind of discipline without guidance. If you do, you run the risk of not achieving discipline. You’ll either be too laxed or too harsh.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Click to expand...
I’m not going to knock the Pope but I don’t understand it. Your posts have been of some help to me in understanding this matter.

To each his own. I don’t much care for self-discipline so I don’t need to whip myself, my struggles are more basic.
 
WOW!!! We have a guide to live by - the example of Jesus (not buddha) as recorded in Scripture - and Jesus never self beat himself - he was whipped by others and by our sins. God took our pain and suffering - we can not be God and by some self proclamation of self beating claim to take His pain - remember the sin He bore on the cross was pain and was ours - we cannot even emulate it - it was inflicted by others. St. Paul’s suffering was inflicted by others - there is no scriptual example to follow of self beating. This is where tradition is fallible - because someone in our tradition did something does not make it spiritually correct.

When you love Jesus one cannot help but feel strong empathy and even guilt when meditating on His passion - but He did this for us, including taking our guilt!!! If we are beaten by others because we are proclaiming the Gospel we can share in a special way the passion of Christ but to beat ourselves is not discipline. We are to receive what God has provided for us and endure unto the end by denying our sinful human nature and embracing the sanctifying grace of the Holy Spirit thereby producing fruits of righteousness. Denying our sinful human nature does not mean self inflicting a beating but saying no to sin by the acts of our will. Fasting is not a self inficted beating but a denial of over indulgent sin, whether food or some other over indulgence and believe me in America there is plenty to choose from.

But please do not patronize me and say this is beyond my understanding because it is not. I have practised many self denials over the years and have been drawn closer to God but these have been confirmed in Scripture. Incorporating pagan practices is not new to the church and this appears to me to be one of them. We are to receive the kingdom of heaven as little children according to Jesus. Self beating is not the action of a little child. As we grow in sanctification, it is normal to feel unworthy of this great gift God has given us and to want to give back to God (more than just our believing), but God has said that is quite impossible, so, if we want to give back, then give to our fellow man who is undeserving.

To celebrate self beating just shows a lack of understanding of the Gospel, not a deeper understanding of it. I admire the desire behind it and in my eyes does not belittle those who have done it but it is certainly an immature act - obviously I am not referring to their whole life as immature (they have accomplished much more than most and certainly me) but just this one area. Scripture calls all Christians saints but if we want to declare special saints then I also believe that self beating should not derail their election but it certainly should not advance it either. We all fall short of the Glory of God declared St. Paul to the saints in Rome but nowhere does it say we get closer by self beating but by seeking, obeying, and doing the things of God. If we are persecuted for the Gospels sake, the more blessed we are but we can not bless ourselves by self beating!
 
gtrenewed said:
WOW!!! We have a guide to live by - the example of Jesus (not buddha) as recorded in Scripture - and Jesus never self beat himself - he was whipped by others and by our sins. God took our pain and suffering - we can not be God and by some self proclamation of self beating claim to take His pain - remember the sin He bore on the cross was pain and was ours - we cannot even emulate it - it was inflicted by others. St. Paul’s suffering was inflicted by others - there is no scriptual example to follow of self beating. This is where tradition is fallible - because someone in our tradition did something does not make it spiritually correct.

When you love Jesus one cannot help but feel strong empathy and even guilt when meditating on His passion - but He did this for us, including taking our guilt!!! If we are beaten by others because we are proclaiming the Gospel we can share in a special way the passion of Christ but to beat ourselves is not discipline. We are to receive what God has provided for us and endure unto the end by denying our sinful human nature and embracing the sanctifying grace of the Holy Spirit thereby producing fruits of righteousness. Denying our sinful human nature does not mean self inflicting a beating but saying no to sin by the acts of our will. Fasting is not a self inficted beating but a denial of over indulgent sin, whether food or some other over indulgence and believe me in America there is plenty to choose from.

But please do not patronize me and say this is beyond my understanding because it is not. I have practised many self denials over the years and have been drawn closer to God but these have been confirmed in Scripture. Incorporating pagan practices is not new to the church and this appears to me to be one of them. We are to receive the kingdom of heaven as little children according to Jesus. Self beating is not the action of a little child. As we grow in sanctification, it is normal to feel unworthy of this great gift God has given us and to want to give back to God (more than just our believing), but God has said that is quite impossible, so, if we want to give back, then give to our fellow man who is undeserving.

To celebrate self beating just shows a lack of understanding of the Gospel, not a deeper understanding of it. I admire the desire behind it and in my eyes does not belittle those who have done it but it is certainly an immature act - obviously I am not referring to their whole life as immature (they have accomplished much more than most and certainly me) but just this one area. Scripture calls all Christians saints but if we want to declare special saints then I also believe that self beating should not derail their election but it certainly should not advance it either. We all fall short of the Glory of God declared St. Paul to the saints in Rome but nowhere does it say we get closer by self beating but by seeking, obeying, and doing the things of God. If we are persecuted for the Gospels sake, the more blessed we are but we can not bless ourselves by self beating!
Click to expand...
First, let us remember that not everything is mentioned in scripture. Much has been handed down to us by Sacred Christian Tradition, including the scriptures themselves. Tradition came first and scriputre came from it.

Second, the use of the discipline is a sign of the individual’s identification with the crucified Christ. It is not an attempt to meat Christ’s sufferings or outdo them.

Third, the other purpose of the discipline is just that, to develop discipline. If we stop to consider that the requirement when one uses the discipline is temperance, it is an exercise in virtue. Too much is just as bad as not enough. It is a ritual that is meant that reminds the user of the importance of taking up his cross. and converting away from sin.

I hope this helps.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
  • This story moved me beyond words. God bless Pope JP2. He was simply an awesome example of faith! *
 
JReducation said:
First, let us remember that not everything is mentioned in scripture. Much has been handed down to us by Sacred Christian Tradition, including the scriptures themselves. Tradition came first and scriputre came from it.

Second, the use of the discipline is a sign of the individual’s identification with the crucified Christ. It is not an attempt to meat Christ’s sufferings or outdo them.

Third, the other purpose of the discipline is just that, to develop discipline. If we stop to consider that the requirement when one uses the discipline is temperance, it is an exercise in virtue. Too much is just as bad as not enough. It is a ritual that is meant that reminds the user of the importance of taking up his cross. and converting away from sin.

I hope this helps.
Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Click to expand...
You have not addressed one point - where is it found that Jesus self beat Himself?
Everything above is true except we identify with Christ in baptism - Romans 6:3 ‘Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?’ Romans 6:6 ‘We know that our old self was crucified with Him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.’ St. Paul goes on to explain that as we present ourselves to God, our members to righteousness, sin has no dominion over us.

Also, St. Peter says in his first letter chaper 4 verse 12,13 'Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery trial when it comes upon you to test you,… But rejoice insofar as you share Christ’s sufferings,…'

So, your logic is flawed. Discipline is a response to external circumstances. Because of baptism, as we go before God sin weakens, righteous fruit blossoms, and Jesus completes the good work that He started within us. Our discipline is presenting ourselves to God and saying no to sin. We rely on the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit, not self methods. We do not staple our mouths shut to stop overeating - we ask God for the grace and strength to stop and then resist tempation. If we fail, we repent and ask anew and as Scripture tells us ‘we must believe that God is and that He is the rewarder of those that diligently seek Him.’ Discipline in diligently seeking God and all things will be added to us according to His will is what Scripture tells us.
 
gtrenewed said:
You have not addressed one point - where is it found that Jesus self beat Himself?
Everything above is true except we identify with Christ in baptism - Romans 6:3 ‘Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?’ Romans 6:6 ‘We know that our old self was crucified with Him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.’ St. Paul goes on to explain that as we present ourselves to God, our members to righteousness, sin has no dominion over us.

Also, St. Peter says in his first letter chaper 4 verse 12,13 'Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery trial when it comes upon you to test you,… But rejoice insofar as you share Christ’s sufferings,…'

So, your logic is flawed. Discipline is a response to external circumstances. Because of baptism, as we go before God sin weakens, righteous fruit blossoms, and Jesus completes the good work that He started within us. Our discipline is presenting ourselves to God and saying no to sin. We rely on the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit, not self methods. We do not staple our mouths shut to stop overeating - we ask God for the grace and strength to stop and then resist tempation. If we fail, we repent and ask anew and as Scripture tells us ‘we must believe that God is and that He is the rewarder of those that diligently seek Him.’ Discipline in diligently seeking God and all things will be added to us according to His will is what Scripture tells us.
Click to expand...
The answer to the first question is that we do not know if Christ used corporal discipline. Neither the scriptures nor sacred tradition affirm or deny it. But we do know that corporal discipline has been part of the Christian tradition from the first generation Christians. The Dessert Fathers and Mothers practiced it. It does form part of the Christian Tradition. Prior to that it was part of the Judeo tradition as well.

To deny something solely because it’s not included in scripture can be a grave error. Much has been revealed to the Church that is not found in scripture. That’s why we have the Church. The fullness of truth subsists in the Catholic Church. That being said, if this practice has existed since the early days of the Church and has been found to be virtuous by the Church, then it is not for us to question the practice itself.

We can question the individual’s motives and that is the job of the spiritual director. The spiritual director must carefully examine the individual to ascertain that the motives are virtuous. They can only be found virtuous if they are consistent with the faith of the Church, which is never in error.

Now let us look at the tripod upon which the faith of the Church rests: Sacred Tradition, first. The Magisterium, second and Sacred Scripture, third. The reason that Sacred Scripture comes in third is not because it is the least important, but because it came into existence after Tradition and Magisterium. It was the Church who decided what should be included and excluded from the canon of scripture. Many things were excluded for different reasons. Some were excluded because they were commonly known. Other things were excluded because they did not reflect what the Church believed. And other things were excluded because they could not be proven to be revealed truths.

Spiritual disciplines were not included in Sacred Scripture because they were commonly known and practiced by the first generation Christians. The same holds true for many dogmas. You will not find the Immaculate Conception, the Assumption or the word Trinity in Sacred Scripture. In fact, you do not find the word Sacrament in scripture or canonization. But we believe these are dogmas that must be held by every believer.

There is no explicit mention of religious life or the vowed life in scripture, but it is an essential part of the Church and all of the Apostolic Churches uphold this. Why? Because it is a tradition that has been handed down to us from the time of the Fathers of the Church. Along with this tradition there were handed down to us many disciplines, such as the use of the Discipline, which was included in the rules of St. Benedict and St. Basil, the father of monasticism for west and east respectively. Both of these fathers handed down a practice that had been in place before they organized the monastic movement into religious orders. They received it from the early monks and hermits that lived in the desert who had received their faith from the Apostles and the disciples of the Apostles.

We can’t argue this using scripture alone. That would be an invalid argument. Much has been handed down to us through Apostolic tradition, thus called Sacred Tradition. If we hold on to the idea that it must be in scripture, then we run the risk of having to call into question the many disciplines and doctrines that were handed down to us from the first Christians, but are not included in scripture.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
gtrenewed said:
You have not addressed one point - where is it found that Jesus self beat Himself?
Everything above is true except we identify with Christ in baptism - Romans 6:3 ‘Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?’ Romans 6:6 ‘We know that our old self was crucified with Him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.’ St. Paul goes on to explain that as we present ourselves to God, our members to righteousness, sin has no dominion over us.

Also, St. Peter says in his first letter chaper 4 verse 12,13 'Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery trial when it comes upon you to test you,… But rejoice insofar as you share Christ’s sufferings,…'

So, your logic is flawed. Discipline is a response to external circumstances. Because of baptism, as we go before God sin weakens, righteous fruit blossoms, and Jesus completes the good work that He started within us. Our discipline is presenting ourselves to God and saying no to sin. We rely on the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit, not self methods. We do not staple our mouths shut to stop overeating - we ask God for the grace and strength to stop and then resist tempation. If we fail, we repent and ask anew and as Scripture tells us ‘we must believe that God is and that He is the rewarder of those that diligently seek Him.’ Discipline in diligently seeking God and all things will be added to us according to His will is what Scripture tells us.
Click to expand...
In addition to what Brother JR has mentioned, scripture does tell us that Jesus fasted and sought isolation in the desert, as did John the Baptist before him. Fasting is also an aspect of what the Church has traditionally considered self - mortification of the flesh.
 
Where is there real documentation, where it leads to say that Pope John Paul II did this self punishment of “wipping himself” for a penance? Sleeping on the floor I can believe but the Catholic Church stopped self-flagellation? Or am I wrong here and there is nothing wrong with self-flagellation??? Because if so maybe this is a practice I need to begin and with Lent coming right around the corner and all.

Is there a book that PJP II wrote that he himself said he did this? Or is this coming out because he is in the process of becoming a saint?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top