Pope, Lutheran leader pledge to work for restored communion [CWN]

[Convert_in_99]

I don’t think people can outright say the pope is heretical or not legitimate or even not doing and saying what he thinks is right for the church. But any Catholic can think this pope or any pope is wrong in his opinions. Almost every parish I’ve ever been to does not agree with BXVI on liturgical or musical matters. The vast majority of Catholics don’t agree with many Catholic issues including birth control. Certain things (like birth control) are non negotiable. But others, such as the style in which any pope communicates or works for ecumenism (;which ultimately means turning other Christians Catholic) or communicate the way he does. I disagree with the pope about tons of things. Some of which I’m sure stem from the fact that I’m not South American and haven’t been formed by that culture. I think one can be a faithful Catholic and disagree with the style and even substance with any given pontiff. They are not all equal. Some have been downright bad. A Catholic owes respect to the office of Peter and to the person in that office. I’ve been very frustrated with some things his pope has done and said. I love him. I care for him and I pray for him. But he is not personally infallible or perfect.

Pope Francis has challenged and weakened my faith. Only time will tell if that was pruning that made the branches grow stronger or if it was damaging to the tree if my faith.

Either way, no pope is bigger than the office of pope and each pope is but a parenthesis in the line of the church. God willing you and I live to see the next pope and whatever that brings.

I may disagree with the pope on certain things like artificial birth control or communion for adulterers. and others may disagree with him on other things. Like the beauty of spanking a child…

But then why have authority at all? Why not just be a “cafeteria catholic”'or even a Protestant and be able to just pick and choose what to believe when the Holy Father speaks?

 

[2PT3]

I don’t think people can outright say the pope is heretical or not legitimate or even not doing and saying what he thinks is right for the church. But any Catholic can think this pope or any pope is wrong in his opinions. Almost every parish I’ve ever been to does not agree with BXVI on liturgical or musical matters. The vast majority of Catholics don’t agree with many Catholic issues including birth control. Certain things (like birth control) are non negotiable. But others, such as the style in which any pope communicates or works for ecumenism (;which ultimately means turning other Christians Catholic) or communicate the way he does. I disagree with the pope about tons of things. Some of which I’m sure stem from the fact that I’m not South American and haven’t been formed by that culture. I think one can be a faithful Catholic and disagree with the style and even substance with any given pontiff. They are not all equal. Some have been downright bad. A Catholic owes respect to the office of Peter and to the person in that office. I’ve been very frustrated with some things his pope has done and said. I love him. I care for him and I pray for him. But he is not personally infallible or perfect.

Pope Francis has challenged and weakened my faith. Only time will tell if that was pruning that made the branches grow stronger or if it was damaging to the tree if my faith.

Either way, no pope is bigger than the office of pope and each pope is but a parenthesis in the line of the church. God willing you and I live to see the next pope and whatever that brings.

I may disagree with the pope on certain things like artificial birth control or communion for adulterers. and others may disagree with him on other things. Like the beauty of spanking a child…

You will learn that there are people here who are determined to shout down and run off anyone who dares to suggest that there should be limits to the current ecumenical project.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

But then why have authority at all? Why not just be a “cafeteria catholic”'or even a Protestant and be able to just pick and choose what to believe when the Holy Father speaks?

Because we do not have to subscribe to any pontiffs personal opinions. We do have to subscribe to the church.

Do you think pope Francis has ever been wrong since he took office?

 

[2PT3]

But then why have authority at all? Why not just be a “cafeteria catholic”'or even a Protestant and be able to just pick and choose what to believe when the Holy Father speaks?

I have a couple of book recommendations for you.

1. Magisterial Authority, by Fr. Chad Ripperger.
2. What Catholics are Free to Believe or Not, by Fr. H. G. Hughes.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

You will learn that there are people here who are determined to shout down and run off anyone who dares to suggest that there should be limits to the current ecumenical project.

I will learn? I think I probably know the posters on here more than you do. And there is no shouting down or running off. There are however forum rules. And yes. You may have different rules should you create an online forum apostolate. I have been able to learn the rules and follow them while still articulating a disagreement with certain issues. If you wish to question the pope on his policies you are free to do so in a respectful manner.

As I stated earlier and in numerous threads. I disagree with the pope on some issues. I’m troubled by some things. I can articulate those concerns without being disrespectful or disobedient. I can do so while being charitable to my shepherd and father.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

But then why have authority at all? Why not just be a “cafeteria catholic”'or even a Protestant and be able to just pick and choose what to believe when the Holy Father speaks?

Among many other reasons, because of this:

*Can. 331 The bishop of the Roman Church, in whom continues the office given by the Lord uniquely to Peter, the first of the Apostles, and to be transmitted to his successors, is the head of the college of bishops, the Vicar of Christ, and the pastor of the universal Church on earth. By virtue of his office he possesses supreme, full, immediate, and universal ordinary power in the Church, which he is always able to exercise freely.

Can. 332 §1. The Roman Pontiff obtains full and supreme power in the Church by his acceptance of legitimate election together with episcopal consecration. Therefore, a person elected to the supreme pontificate who is marked with episcopal character obtains this power from the moment of acceptance. If the person elected lacks episcopal character, however, he is to be ordained a bishop immediately.

/…/

Can. 333 §1. By virtue of his office, the Roman Pontiff not only possesses power over the universal Church but also obtains the primacy of ordinary power over all particular churches and groups of them. Moreover, this primacy strengthens and protects the proper, ordinary, and immediate power which bishops possess in the particular churches entrusted to their care.

§2. In fulfilling the office of supreme pastor of the Church, the Roman Pontiff is always joined in communion with the other bishops and with the universal Church. He nevertheless has the right, according to the needs of the Church, to determine the manner, whether personal or collegial, of exercising this office.

§3. No appeal or recourse is permitted against a sentence or decree of the Roman Pontiff.*

 

[Convert_in_99]

Because we do not have to subscribe to any pontiffs personal opinions. We do have to subscribe to the church.

Do you think pope Francis has ever been wrong since he took office?

Its always possible, but not likely on matters of faith and morals. Regardless, ecumenism is a movement of the Church, not a personal whim or opinion of Pope Francis.

 

[Convert_in_99]

Among many other reasons, because of this:

Can. 331 The bishop of the Roman Church, in whom continues the office given by the Lord uniquely to Peter, the first of the Apostles, and to be transmitted to his successors, is the head of the college of bishops, the Vicar of Christ, and the pastor of the universal Church on earth. By virtue of his office he possesses supreme, full, immediate, and universal ordinary power in the Church, which he is always able to exercise freely.

Can. 332 §1. The Roman Pontiff obtains full and supreme power in the Church by his acceptance of legitimate election together with episcopal consecration. Therefore, a person elected to the supreme pontificate who is marked with episcopal character obtains this power from the moment of acceptance. If the person elected lacks episcopal character, however, he is to be ordained a bishop immediately.

/…/

Can. 333 §1. By virtue of his office, the Roman Pontiff not only possesses power over the universal Church but also obtains the primacy of ordinary power over all particular churches and groups of them. Moreover, this primacy strengthens and protects the proper, ordinary, and immediate power which bishops possess in the particular churches entrusted to their care.

§2. In fulfilling the office of supreme pastor of the Church, the Roman Pontiff is always joined in communion with the other bishops and with the universal Church. He nevertheless has the right, according to the needs of the Church, to determine the manner, whether personal or collegial, of exercising this office.

§3. No appeal or recourse is permitted against a sentence or decree of the Roman Pontiff.

Thank you kindly Father! I’m getting in over my head with all of these persons speaking against our dear Holy Father!

 

[Convert_in_99]

I will learn? I think I probably know the posters on here more than you do. And there is no shouting down or running off. There are however forum rules. And yes. You may have different rules should you create an online forum apostolate. I have been able to learn the rules and follow them while still articulating a disagreement with certain issues. If you wish to question the pope on his policies you are free to do so in a respectful manner.

As I stated earlier and in numerous threads. I disagree with the pope on some issues. I’m troubled by some things. I can articulate those concerns without being disrespectful or disobedient. I can do so while being charitable to my shepherd and father.

Yes, you have been “opiniated” maybe, but respectful.

Besides Hoosier Daddy knows I’m crazy already!

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Its always possible, but not likely on matters of faith and morals. Regardless, ecumenism is a movement of the Church, not a personal whim or opinion of Pope Francis.

It’s common, especially in western democratic societies to misunderstand the idea of the pope. We do not follow a man, but a church.

Ecumenism can be implemented wisely or poorly or in between. And we can have opinions on that.

 

[Convert_in_99]

It’s common, especially in western democratic societies to misunderstand the idea of the pope. We do not follow a man, but a church.

Ecumenism can be implemented wisely or poorly or in between. And we can have opinions on that.

Right. As a convert I do realize this more than a lot of people do.

Hmm…I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that last sentence. I don’t see either of us changing sides on this.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Right. As a convert I do realize this more than a lot of people do.

Hmm…I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that last sentence. I don’t see either of us changing sides on this.

Well, you know it is interesting, Convert in 99. People may have opinions – they may be completely inappropriate, but they may have them. However, if they are not at a certain level or with a certain office, they are opinions of no real effect or real significance.

Personally, I would counsel you to look first to the Holy See and then your diocese’s official for ecumenical affairs appointed by your bishop.

And of course your National Conference of Catholic Bishops has distinguished itself for its Committee on Ecumenical and Interreligious Affairs, which is an exceptional resource. The bishops overseeing this committee and their professional staff are really quite excellent in what they do and in the guidance they provide to the more than 190 offices on ecumenism and interreligious affairs in the (arch)dioceses of the United States.

 

[commenter]

How was I disrespectful? I neither mentioned nor referred to him. All I did was question the proposition that the real differences between Catholicism and Lutheranism can be dismissed as “a 500 year old grudge” without compromising the truth.

It is not disrespecful to point out that many Catholics and Lutherans have concerns about the ****recent ****drift of mainline Lutheran denominations away from their orthodox Lutheran and general-Christian roots. This has nothing to do with any “500 year old grudge”. The more I have learned about classic Lutheran spirituality, the greater I think is the tragedy of the drift towards modernism of some denominations.

It also is not disrespectful to place papal statements and actions on ecumenism in the context of papal statements and actions on prolife, marriage, and ordination. Those topics are relevant because of mainline Lutheran denominations positions on those exact topics. I am not arguing against Pope Francis’ statements and actions on ecumenism, I argue against those who misinterpret them or ignore other things he and other recent popes have said on doctrine, prolife, marriage, ordination and so on. All those positions remain in effect.

 

[Convert_in_99]

Well, you know it is interesting, Convert in 99. People may have opinions – they may be completely inappropriate, but they may have them. However, if they are not at a certain level or with a certain office, they are opinions of no real effect or real significance.

Personally, I would counsel you to look first to the Holy See and then your diocese’s official for ecumenical affairs appointed by your bishop.

And of course your National Conference of Catholic Bishops has distinguished itself for its Committee on Ecumenical and Interreligious Affairs, which is an exceptional resource. The bishops overseeing this committee and their professional staff are really quite excellent in what they do and in the guidance they provide to the more than 190 offices on ecumenism and interreligious affairs in the (arch)dioceses of the United States.

I’m sorry Father, did I say something wrong? I’m in agreeance that we should respect and follow our Holy Father’s lead on this continued movement of Ecumenism in our Church.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

I’m sorry Father, did I say something wrong? I’m in agreeance that we should respect and follow our Holy Father’s lead on this continued movement of Ecumenism in our Church.

No…you did not say anything wrong.

What I meant is that one can read the opinions that are expressed by a great many people – but what matters are those who have been entrusted with, in this case, this work by the hierarchy.

I am happy to answer the odd question here – and I enjoy your posts and questions immensely – but I have never read anything here by anyone, with their opinion, that I made any remark of concerning even the things I am still asked to do at this stage of life and in retirement…let alone something that I would have given any consideration when I was not retired.

 

[Michael_Francis]

Thread closed pending review by moderator Robert Bay.