Pope met with Kentucky clerk Kim Davis during his US trip, according to her lawyers

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7_Sorrows said:
what is an apostolic christian?

why woild she give the rosaries away if they were for her parents?
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Apostolic Pentecostals are Oneness Pentecostals, who do not believe in a Trinitarian G-d of three distinct Persons, but rather in Jesus only Who manifests Himself in different ways.
 
FollowChrist34 said:
I am defending a Christian’s right to exercise his faith in modern society - and not get fired or otherwise mistreated for it. We need compromise, not intolerance. (and of course the Pope understands this too)
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But if we live in a multi-religious and multi-cultural society, should we defend the right of any public official to interpret and implement the law based on their faith or other private beliefs? What if a county clerk happened to be a Muslim and said that they are now going to start carrying out their public duties in accordance with shari’a law or a Catholic public official is going to start carrying them out according to their Catholic beliefs and a public official who is a member of the KKK is going to start carrying them out in accordance with their racist ideology? 🤷
 
FollowChrist34 said:
I agree it is unfortunate that there is so much heated debate about this topic. But the reality is that Kim Davis and this whole episode over the SSM licenses *is *about defending religious freedom in the US. *And this gesture of meeting her does confirm the Pope understands that. *That is a great thing for Christianity - I don’t want that downplayed; it is not good for the Church to downplay it. I likewise don’t want to offend anyone and my goal is not intolerance. I am defending a Christian’s right to exercise his faith in modern society - and not get fired or otherwise mistreated for it. We need compromise, not intolerance. (and of course the Pope understands this too)
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Fair enough. I would tend to say that the meeting pretty much reiterates what Pope Francis said on the plane back to Rome:

I can’t have in mind all cases that can exist about conscientious objection. But, yes, I can say conscientious objection is a right that is a part of every human right. It is a right. And if a person does not allow others to be a conscientious objector, he denies a right. Conscientious objection must enter into every juridical structure because it is a right, a human right. Otherwise we would end up in a situation where we select what is a right, saying ‘this right that has merit, this one does not.’
 
meltzerboy said:
Apostolic Pentecostals are Oneness Pentecostals, who do not believe in a Trinitarian G-d of three distinct Persons, but rather in Jesus only Who manifests Himself in different ways.
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Kinda like secular and orthodox Jews? Or is that not a fair analogy? 😉 Do secular Jews believe in Yahweh the same way that Orthodox Jews do? Would a Jewish Church leader meet a secular Jew in jail if the freedom to follow Jewish religious customs was being threatened by the State? Probably - right? Or would their differences in belief override what they had in common?
 
Thorolfr said:
But if we live in a multi-religious and multi-cultural society, should we defend the right of any public official to interpret and implement the law based on their faith or other private beliefs? What if a county clerk happened to be a Muslim and said that they are now going to start carrying out their public duties in accordance with shari’a law or a Catholic public official is going to start carrying them out according to their Catholic beliefs and a public official who is a member of the KKK is going to start carrying them out in accordance with their racist ideology? 🤷
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Good point. What about Sharia law or Torah law being imposed on implementing or refraining from implementing civil law? Does a public official have a right to conscientious objection while, at the same time, maintaining their public office whose very function is to carry out the law of the land? How many different views of the law based on religious principles can public officials be allowed to implement? Back to square one.
 
J_Peterson said:
I admit I was taken aback by news of the meeting. Pope Francis usually seems to be uninterested in culture war issues. Here is a good synopsis by Fr. James Martin S.J. for those that are concerned about the meeting:

The Pope and Kim Davis: Seven Points to Keep in Mind

Honestly, the most shocking thing I learned in that article is that Apostolic Pentecostals are not Trinitarian. I’ve always thought that you need to believe in the Trinity to be considered a Christian (by definition). Who was Jesus praying to if there’s no distinction between the Father and Son?
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I think you are correct that a Trinitarian understanding of God is necessary to be called a Christian. It is one of the reasons why Mormons are not Christians and Mormon baptisms are not recognized by the Catholic Church, even though they talk about the Trinity. The term means something very different to them; the Mormon Trinity is three beings who are not equal and not of one substance.

Pope Francis and the whole Catholic Church believe that the basis for marriage, family, and human dignity are knowable from reason alone. There is no reason you have to be Catholic, Christian, Jewish, pagan, Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu, or atheist to reach the same conclusion: that marriage and family are the basis of any society. The World Meeting of Families included people from many other faiths to emphasize that, and that event was the main purpose of his trip to the US in the first place.
 
Trader said:
I think you are correct that a Trinitarian understanding of God is necessary to be called a Christian. It is one of the reasons why Mormons are not Christians and Mormon baptisms are not recognized by the Catholic Church, even though they talk about the Trinity. The term means something very different to them; the Mormon Trinity is three beings who are not equal and not of one substance.

Pope Francis and the whole Catholic Church believe that the basis for marriage, family, and human dignity are knowable from reason alone. There is no reason you have to be Catholic, Christian, pagan, Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu, or atheist to reach the same conclusion: that marriage and family are the basis of any society. The World Meeting of Families included people from many other faiths to emphasize that, and that event was the main purpose of his trip to the US in the first place.
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Great point. The Pope also has many Pentecostal friends and acquaintances. Whether we like it or not here on CAF, I am afraid he may consider Kim Davis a fellow Christian. That said, he does (gasp!) care about the religious rights of all religious groups, Muslims, etc.
 
FollowChrist34 said:
Whether we like it or not here on CAF, I am afraid he may consider Kim Davis a fellow Christian.
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What ?
She is a Christian. She recently went to jail for her Christian beliefs.

The Pope has said he supports conscientious objection, so it would make
sense that he would offer his moral support to her.

Why would people here on CAF be afraid that the Pope may consider Kim Davis a
fellow Christian’ ???

:confused:
 
FollowChrist34 said:
Great point. The Pope also has many Pentecostal friends and acquaintances. Whether we like it or not here on CAF, I am afraid he may consider Kim Davis a fellow Christian. That said, he does (gasp!) care about the religious rights of all religious groups, Muslims, etc.
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How is it the Pope can be praised for reaching out to the least among us, including transgender and homosexual couples seeking to adopt, and previous Pope’s have met with people from all walks and faiths, often in an effort of solidarity on common ground, but somehow meeting Kim Davis is met with such borderline disgust (too strong a term, but best I could muster)?
 
Maximilan_Kolbe said:
How is it the Pope can be praised for reaching out to the least among us, including transgender and homosexual couples seeking to adopt, and previous Pope’s have met with people from all walks and faiths, often in an effort of solidarity on common ground, but somehow meeting Kim Davis is met with such borderline disgust (too strong a term, but best I could muster)?
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I am wondering that same thing!

Kim Davis has gone to jail rather than compromise her Christian beliefs.
It should be expected and hoped that the Pope would offer his moral support to her.
I’d think Catholics would be pleased that the Pope has done so.

I’m just sorry that he didn’t make his meeting with her more public !
 
sarah_j said:
I am wondering that same thing!

Kim Davis has gone to jail rather than compromise her Christian beliefs.
It should be expected and hoped that the Pope would offer his moral support to her.
I’d think Catholics would be pleased that the Pope has done so.

I’m just sorry that he didn’t make his meeting with her more public !
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I wonder if he also took this meeting as an opportunity to admonish her for getting divorced three times 😉
 
Maximilan_Kolbe said:
How is it the Pope can be praised for reaching out to the least among us, including transgender and homosexual couples seeking to adopt, and previous Pope’s have met with people from all walks and faiths, often in an effort of solidarity on common ground, but somehow meeting Kim Davis is met with such borderline disgust (too strong a term, but best I could muster)?
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Yes, I am surprised at the response to this meeting by some - those who were against Davis so to speak. These feelings of hostility are really strong and entrenched. And I am not thumbing my nose at anyone. Doesn’t give you much hope for “dialogue” does it. (I went for days during his visit thinking he was blowing the whole thing off to avoid controversy. I didn’t like it but I didn’t flame up over it like this.)
 
Maximilan_Kolbe said:
How is it the Pope can be praised for reaching out to the least among us, including transgender and homosexual couples seeking to adopt, and previous Pope’s have met with people from all walks and faiths, often in an effort of solidarity on common ground, but somehow meeting Kim Davis is met with such borderline disgust (too strong a term, but best I could muster)?
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Because some people are more equal than others? Many of the critics of the Catholic Church skillfully and deliberately twist language in order to win the argument without addressing the real issues. George Orwell is not the only one to notice this.
 
FollowChrist34 said:
Yes, I am surprised at the response to this meeting by some - those who were against Davis so to speak. These feelings of hostility are really strong and entrenched. And I am not thumbing my nose at anyone. Doesn’t give you much hope for “dialogue” does it. (I went for days during his visit thinking he was blowing the whole thing off to avoid controversy. I didn’t like it but I didn’t flame up over it like this.)
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I like Pope Francis but I am a little disappointed in the secrecy and lack of transparency about this meeting and the coyness from the Vatican to say anything about it. It feels kind of like politics.
 
FollowChrist34 said:
Ad hominem.

Unworthy of a Christian, IMHO.
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Is it ad hominem? As a gay man, one of the things about Kim Davis that I find most offensive is that she has been married four times and divorced three times, and feels that it is her duty to prevent people like me from getting married even once. And then people here treat her like she is the poster person and leading champion for defending the sanctity of marriage. 🤷
 
Thorolfr said:
I like Pope Francis but I am a little disappointed in the secrecy and lack of transparency about this meeting and the coyness from the Vatican to say anything about it. It feels kind of like politics.
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I think they are just deathly afraid of alienating either side. (and often not particularly skilled at PR relations which I would expect from those in religious life but it can get problematic) And I do feel your pain - I have been on the other side - watching the Vatican seeming to embrace something I oppose. It is not fun. I do think the Pope is trying to do the right thing by you by me by Kim Davis, etc. etc. etc.
 
Thorolfr said:
Is it ad hominem? As a gay man, one of the things about Kim Davis that I find most offensive is that she has been married four times and divorced three times, and feels that it is her duty to prevent people like me from getting married even once. And then people here treat her like she is the poster person for defending the sanctity of marriage. 🤷
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No, in fact the irony is that somebody with such a broken history has emerged as one of the country’s boldest advocates for the institution of marriage. Besides, divorce tatters marriage, you might say, but it doesn’t redefine it.

The difference is evident in the outright falsity of your post. Nobody is trying to prevent you from marrying. What they are trying to do is keep you from commandeering the very definition of marriage by finding a member of the same sex and attempting to give yourselves the absurd label of “marriage.”
 
Thorolfr said:
Is it ad hominem? As a gay man, one of the things about Kim Davis that I find most offensive is that she has been married four times and divorced three times, and feels that it is her duty to prevent people like me from getting married even once. And then people here treat her like she is the poster person for defending the sanctity of marriage. 🤷
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She just doesn’t want to sign your marriage license because it violates her belief in the sanctity of marriage. She wants her name off the license. She mentioned this long before gay marriage became federal law. I can’t understand why you (and others) can’t handle that. Why can’t you accept that she objects to it as a matter of conscience - the legal system can figure something out. It doesn’t have to be this overly personal hate filled crusade. Think forward - hopefully in the next 10 years or so, we will have all of this worked out. And we can all live in peace.
 
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