Pope Opposes Harry Potter Novels - Signed Letters from Cardinal Ratzinger Now Online

[rlg94086]

Had it been on the best-seller list, I won’t be surprised if people will insist that there are many ‘love conquering evil’ themes in Mein Kampf. In today’s relativistic world one can find ‘love’ in a pack of ecstacy pills and tell the world that one has conquered ‘evil’. The Pope’s assessment is needed in today’s world.

If it had not been on the best-seller list, we would all be having the same conversation.

Mein Kampf?! Are you well? Are you expecting Rowling to try to send you to a concentration camp? March through Surrey?

 

[wisdom_3_5]

Duh to me! I should check facts. TY for pointing out the obvious in your 1st paragraph. Duh to me again… Anyhow’s, still say if ya don’t like the books, don’t read or let your kids read em. I would hope that before judging any book, one should read it or at least a bit to check it out. After all, the Bible can be pretty racy and has some decidedly awful things therein.

-Peace-

True, and much of the Bible is taken out of context, misquoted and misunderstood. But those are only part(s) of the Story and not the Main Theme.

To Mag:
I would suggest starting at the first book. The 7th (Deathly Hallows) is the best, but you would ruin the ending of the series for yourself (although, you’ve probably read all the spoilers already).

You might also (or before you even read a HP book) want to read Looking for God in Harry Potter by John Granger. It was written before book 5 and talks about the Christian symbols and themes in books 1-4. I think you can get it from the library or you can purchase it on Amazon.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

What I would like to see is an acknowledgement of ‘the rest of us.’

There are some of us who are reasonable, well read people who can find Harry Potter just not ‘great literature’, have no problem with other people reading it, who can, in effect, disagree with the many who find it ‘wonderful’ AND with the many who find it ‘excreble’, giving good, respectful reasons for their personal decision and their review of the series.

Our voices, however, do not seem to be heard. Quite often, there seems a knee-jerk reaction where if any person finds any ‘fault’, he or she is labelled as a vile, bigoted, censorious donkey. Even worse, often our ‘voices’ are simply ignored, and thus there is a continual ‘polarization’ with people either coming out with wild kudos or fervent damnation.

Surely the public is more nuanced than this thread would have us believe. Surely there is a middle ground where people can speak their minds and not be called upon to either ‘only’ praise or ‘only’ condemn.

 

[Chancellare]

Your reading list must be very, very short.

Speak for yourself. If you read The Long Tail, you would realize how people of the best-seller kind are the ones lumped into limited reading list. Much shorter.

 

[Chancellare]

Ratzinger was pope in 2003? How could Cardinal Ratzinger have an opinon on several books that had not yet been written?

As I said before it is embaraasing to see the lows professed Catholics will go to when they perceive other Catholics are enjoying themsleves. The “Pope condemns” Harry Potter" nonsense plays into every Protestant stereotype of mindless Catholics taking daily instuctions from the Pope as to what to beleive and how to act.

Wow, you did not read any Harry Potter before 2003 so you say it was not written yet then??

 

[Mag_Uidhir]

For instance, I mentioned I was reading P.G. Wodehouse a lot recently. I won’t learn much probably from reading books about a clueless British aristocrat (Bertie Wooster) whose valet Jeeves gets him out of silly predicaments through humorous schemes. However, when Bertie’s friend Gussie Fink-Nottle is in love with Madeline Basset but can’t find it in him to propose to her because he is a frightful chump with no spine at all, then the hilarity that ensues in trying to solve the problem is good times indeed.

Yes hilarious it would be, and a chump he certainly is, I suppose reading for some is a kind of escapism.

My wife is into soaps, and if she misses them she records them and sometimes sits through 5 hours of recorded stuff,:hypno: (not all at the one sitting ) like I say different people have different ways to escape the hum-drum, thats hers, a long with her cigs.

To be honest, I think the best of the series is the final book. However, there’s a lot of development of characters that has gone on in books 2-6 that would make it very difficult to skip there. Although I’d really recommend reading the entire series if you are so inclined, I would say to read book 4 (Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire. Skip the movie version, though–I found it intensely disappointing (well, movie-PoA & GoF are both very disappointing compared to the books, OotP was too short by far but at least didn’t annoy me).

Thanks for the info, actually in-case you don’t know I live in Ireland, and I meet a lot of people, I have never heard one person mention HP let alone see a book.

My children 4 adults don’t have them amazingly, what tha hell is wrong with them, are they normal ?

A lot of our TV comes from England you see so this is where we see a lot of the HP hype.

Sorry about the second hand third hand info, I don’t care one way or the other, I was just fishing to see what the truth was from the Vatican.

Start at the begiining-the first two books are short and not as well written as the rest but you need to follow the character development all the way through.

I do and if you look at those defending the books in CAF you will find they do also. I firmly beleive that the near hysterical attacks on theses boks by some Catholics makes it much, much harder for us to defend our Faith. One does not have a lot of credibilty in defending the “Real Presence” after they have been observed throwing a hissy fit about a fictional boy who send letters via Owl.

Thanks, I might suffer one yes I know you defend the faith, I’ve read a lot of your posts, and a fine job you do too.

To Mag:
I would suggest starting at the first book. The 7th (Deathly Hallows) is the best, but you would ruin the ending of the series for yourself (although, you’ve probably read all the spoilers already).

And thank-you too, I seem to have left my childhood too quickly, my son has The Lord of the Rings Cd’s, I sat through some of them only because he had them on in the living-room.

Seriously they didn’t tickle my fancy, it just looks like more of the same to me, I’d rather rather watch Clint Eastwood in the Outlaw Josey Wales catching all the bad guys, I suppose those old films and black & white movies do it for me.

What I would like to see is an acknowledgement of ‘the rest of us.’

There are some of us who are reasonable, well read people who can find Harry Potter just not ‘great literature’, have no problem with other people reading it, who can, in effect, disagree with the many who find it ‘wonderful’ AND with the many who find it ‘excreble’, giving good, respectful reasons for their personal decision and their review of the series.

Our voices, however, do not seem to be heard. Quite often, there seems a knee-jerk reaction where if any person finds any ‘fault’, **he or she is labelled as a vile, bigoted, censorious donkey. ** Even worse, often our ‘voices’ are simply ignored, and thus there is a continual ‘polarization’ with people either coming out with wild kudos or fervent damnation.

Thanks, you certainly are “well read” well you do seem to have a way with words.

Surely the public is more nuanced than this thread would have us believe. Surely there is a middle ground where people can speak their minds and not be called upon to either ‘only’ praise or ‘only’ condemn.

Anyway my final word on this trivial subject that has got out of hand, I have never been a “follow the crowd” type person, just because the masses follow it, doesn’t meant I have to.

People are different and we get off on different things, it would be a pretty boring world if we all liked the same things, we aren’t clones of each-other, well not yet ?

 

[estesbob]

Wow, you did not read any Harry Potter before 2003 so you say it was not written yet then??

I beleive only three of the books had been writtne at the time of the Cardinals Comments. You do know these 7 books were wrtitten over a 10 year period?

 

[estesbob]

What I would like to see is an acknowledgement of ‘the rest of us.’

There are some of us who are reasonable, well read people who can find Harry Potter just not ‘great literature’, have no problem with other people reading it, who can, in effect, disagree with the many who find it ‘wonderful’ AND with the many who find it ‘excreble’, giving good, respectful reasons for their personal decision and their review of the series.

.

The argument as to whehter they are well written(the or “good reads” is a quetiosn of taste. I suspect we all disagree on books and movies. For instance I felt the Movie "The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe " was a terrible movie. Many in these forums think it was great.

What this thread and all the other Potter threads discussed was the nonsense that these books were evil and it was sinful and puting our souls and our childrens souls at risk.

 

[CathCentrist]

hey, bob. I saw this thread…and thought…“where is bob”? It never ceases to amaze me the thousands of threads…ad naseum on Harry Potter. I am getting hysterical from laughing so hard.

As far as the title of this thread goes…I truly believe that there are some folks out there who are waiting for the Pope to come out with a laundry list of books, movies, music, restaurants, food/beverages, cars, clothing, TV programs and news…that the faithful are banned from participating in.

Has common sense been thrown out the window…?..has free will…left the building?

If this happens…there will be high demand for caves…because many folks would have to live there.

Sadly, there are a few here and many elsewhere who are so afraid of life and not being able to make their own minds up, they truly wish someone like the Pope would produce such an inane and absurd litany - weekly if possible! To those who need that kind of rigid structure, join a monastary or the military and stop pushing your terrified outlook on life onto others who have no problem with not needing the Pope, the President or a military general to tell them when and what to eat, read, do, say, etc. Be content with whats already in the rules - God knows THATS already too much

 

[Julianna]

Sadly, there are a few here and many elsewhere who are so afraid of life and not being able to make their own minds up, they truly wish someone like the Pope would produce such an inane and absurd litany - weekly if possible! To those who need that kind of rigid structure, join a monastary or the military and stop pushing your terrified outlook on life onto others who have no problem with not needing the Pope, the President or a military general to tell them when and what to eat, read, do, say, etc. Be content with whats already in the rules - God knows THATS already too much

CathCentrist…that’s it!!!
Every day someone will post something that is really common sense.
Is a tatoo a sin?
If I get a cup of coffee at Starbucks am I damned to all eternity?
If there is a Starbucks inside a national chain store…should I shop there?
Is reading Harry Potter or the DaVinci Code a sin? (like banning books is a good idea )
Is viewing a PG or R rated movie a ticket to hell?
Should I attend a wedding where there is going to be a garter toss, drinking and dancing? (Haven’t been to a Catholic wedding yet that didn’t have all three)

Yes, sometimes I really think there are people who need to have someone tell them what to do. What a life they are missing. Sad really. I agree.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

trth_skr:

Now most Catholics feel it is ok to embrace every gimmick Lucifer throws to the world.

I wish there would be more talk about rock & roll (Lucifer’s music). I remember over 10 years ago, before I became Catholic talking to a Catholic about rock music and satanic influences (I have since heard this same respoonse from other Catholics). The response was, “It{s only a gimmick they use to sell their albums”.

ONLY a gimmick. What corrupted idiocy has entered into a Catholic’s mind to say that using satan to market a product is ok because it is only a gimmick. I know there are many Catholics who do not think this way, but I see this mentalilty on many issues with Catholics, from accepting Harry Potter novels, to rushing to read the Da Vinci code, etc.

The diabolical disorientation Martin Malachi talked about has truly overwhelmed the average Catholic. Silence out of fear of loss of church goers (or other factors) on the part of the Vatican and clergy adds to the disorientation. Leadership is needed NOW.

I hope that Pope Benedict XVI can turn this around, but I am still waiting for something big to happen. So far I only hear a few rumors, a couple of subtle statrements, etc. I truly hope and pray he stands up for Christ and speaks directly to Catholics with clarity and authority. It is much needed, and as far as I can tell has not yet occured (though there are signs it is coming).

This is just foolishness. While we as Catholics should of course be on guard against worldly influences that turn our hearts and minds against God and toward the things of this world, it is a huge mistake to simply assume every aspect of the popular culture is a tool of Satan. The Lord works in strange ways.

And the Harry Potter series is great evidence of this, for I have become convinced that it is Christian fiction in disguise. People gobble these novels up so hungrily because they subtly reflect the truth about God, man, the value and power of self-sacrificial love, and the nature and consequences of a life of virtue.

Here are some good resources for people who are open to the possibility that their suspicions are not accurate:

amywelborn.typepad.com/openbook/2005/07/okay_one_more.html

Also, go to amazon.com and check out the book Looking for God in Harry Potter by John Granger:

amazon.com/Looking-Harry-Potter-John-Granger/dp/1414306342/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-2248141-3416926?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1187126548&sr=1-1

The first link is better for a general overview of why Christians should be applauding Rowling’s series; the book has many details if anyone is interested further.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

And this is just outrageous.

Ten Arguments Against Harry Potter
Catholic Exchange

http://www.catholicexchange.com/ius/vm/ahd_pinline.gif

1. Harry Potter is a global long-term project to change the culture. In this generation of youths, inhibitions against magic and the occult are being destroyed. Thus, forces re-enter society which Christianity had overcome.

The Harry Potter books certainly won’t help destroy the “inhibitions against magic and the occult,” for there are no occult practices in the books, only fantasy magic in the tradition of Tolkien and Lewis. The “witches” and “wizards” in Harry Potter are a completely different type of person than regular humans; regular humans can’t learn magic in Rowling’s world. As the article I linked to above states, “If it’s not wrong for Tolkien’s elves to use their magic, then it’s certainly not wrong for Harry and his friends to use theirs.”

1. Hogwarts, the school of magic and witchcraft, is a closed world of violence and horror, of cursing and bewitching, of racist ideology, of blood sacrifice, disgust, and obsession. There is an atmosphere of continuous threat, which the young reader cannot escape.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

And this is even more stupid than the “racist ideology” charge:

Divine symbols are perverted/

Nothing could be farther from the truth. The symbolism in the Harry Potter novels is extremely traditional. Lions and hippogriffs and stags are good; snakes and dragons are bad; etc. The symbolism is even pretty obviously Christian at parts - author John Granger notes that some kind of Christ-figure comes to the aid of Harry in the climax of each book (phoenix, stag, etc.) The end of the second book follows the structure and symbolism of a medieval morality play.

1. In the Harry Potter universe there is no character that endeavors consistently to achieve good. For seemingly good ends evil means are being used.

The good guys do sometimes do bad things, but in the end, they always learn that it was wrong to do so and end up making mostly good choices. Rowling’s novels enforce a very traditional sense of morality which does not equate good and evil in any way, but rather contrasts them and prevents evil as inferior to good. Evil can only copy and pervert the good; it cannot stand on its own, and good always wins.

1. A (young!) reader’s power of discernment of good and evil is blocked out through emotional manipulation and intellectual confusion.

Actually, a young reader’s power of discernment of good and evil is stimulated and strengthened by the book’s black-and-white presentation of morality, its portrayal of good as ultimately victorious, and its use of traditional Christian symbolism.

1. It is an assault upon this generation of youth, seducing it playfully into a world of witchcraft and sorcery, filling the imagination of the young with images of a world in which evil reigns, from which there is no escape, on the contrary, it is portrayed as highly desirable.

I’m sorry, we must be talking about a different series here. Evil reigns in the Harry Potter books? Evil is thwarted at every turn by the courage, love, and selflessness of the good guys, and Voldemort and his ilk are certainly anything but “highly desirable.”

1. Those who value plurality of opinion should resist the nearly overwhelming power of this peer pressure, which is being accomplished through a gigantic corporate and multimedia blitz — one which displays elements of totalitarian brainwashing.

The books’ popularity comes from people’s hunger for truth and goodness in a world that ordinarily only feeds them relativism and worldliness. The Harry Potter books are a refreshing break from this tendency.

1. Since through the Potter books faith in a loving God is systematically undermined, even destroyed in many young people, through false “values” and mockery of Judeo-Christian truth, the introduction of these books in schools is intolerant. Parents should refuse permission for their children to take part in Potter indoctrination for reasons of faith and conscience.

No - it is the moral relativists who should be afraid; these books more than anything else hammer home the idea that good and evil are clearly different, that good is more powerful and always wins, and that volitional, self-sacrificial love is a force far more powerful than anything else in the world.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

The statement by the Pope is pretty weak, and from what I’ve seen in the movies so far, it is love conquering evil. Perhaps someone who has read the books can correct me, but is that the overall theme? If so, I would say the Pope is wrong in his assessment.

That is indeed the gist. Also:

Pope Benedict XVI did not publicly condemn the Harry Potter novels; the letter in which he made those comments (as Cardinal Ratzinger) was simply a thank-you note to a German woman who sent the Holy Father (before he was the Holy Father) a free copy of her anti-Harry Potter book. From what I’ve read on the matter, it looked like she just sent him her book, and he sent her a private thank-you note just for the sake of politeness.

Also, J.K. Rowling is not a witch. She is a Christian, a Presbyterian I think (if that’s what the Church of Scotland is). And that explains why her books are so subtly Christian in their worldview and themes.

 

[lwest]

Swell, another opinion by someone who’s probably never read one of the books.

Honestly, doesn’t the Vatican have something better to do with its’ time?

Scout :tiphat:

I’m just wondering why you’re even on a Catholic forum if you’re so casual about what the Holy Father thinks? I’d put my trust in his opinion before I ever put my trust in someone like yourself. For the record, Fr. Amorth, the lead exorcist of the Catholic Church has also spoken out about Harry Potter. He deals with the devil every day and sees the books as dangerous. Likewise, I would trust his opinion long before I trust yours. Because, in light of everything, who are you? What authority do you have to determine if something is damaging to our souls or not? Do you have more authority on such matters than the Church that Christ Himself instituted? Get over yourself. Your personal opinion really means next to nothing.

 

[Nohome]

I’m just wondering why you’re even on a Catholic forum if you’re so casual about what the Holy Father thinks?

I’m just wondering why you take issue with a post that is three years old! You might want to check the date before you come out guns a blazing.

Nohomne

 

[lwest]

I’m just wondering why you take issue with a post that is three years old! You might want to check the date before you come out guns a blazing.

Nohomne

You’re right. I should have checked the date. i just did a search for HP and saw it. But it really doesn’t change anything, does it? I responded to a post on a message board…that’s ‘allowed’… even if you don’t agree.

 

[Nohome]

You’re right. I should have checked the date. i just did a search for HP and saw it. But it really doesn’t change anything, does it? I responded to a post on a message board…that’s ‘allowed’… even if you don’t agree.

Oh it’s allowed, be my guest. It just looks really foolish. For all you know, “Scout” may have packed his bags and moved on. I’m sure the Holy Father appreciates your support, it just comes 37 months too late.

Nohome

 

[lwest]

Oh it’s allowed, be my guest. It just looks really foolish. For all you know, “Scout” may have packed his bags and moved on. I’m sure the Holy Father appreciates your support, it just comes 37 months too late.

Nohome

Yep…it looks foolish…even more foolish that I thought you had posted the original post about the Holy Father!! My original intent was to support the Holy Father. (better late than never?) It just bothers me so when people bash his authority. I’d never go to a Jewish board or a Muslim board and start bashing their beliefs. It just seems rude. On that note, I apologize for any sarcastic remarks I made toward you and thank you for ‘quibbing’ back and forth. It’s fun, isn’t it?

 

[Nohome]

Yep…it looks foolish…even more foolish that I thought you had posted the original post about the Holy Father!! My original intent was to support the Holy Father. (better late than never?) It just bothers me so when people bash his authority. I’d never go to a Jewish board or a Muslim board and start bashing their beliefs. It just seems rude. On that note, I apologize for any sarcastic remarks I made toward you and thank you for ‘quibbing’ back and forth. It’s fun, isn’t it?

I think that is why I posted. Even “Scout” wasn’t bashing the Pope. He was criticizing “the Vatican”, which we all know is not synonymous with “the Pope”.

The original story was typical media misinformation. The story headline would lead you to believe the Pope has condemned the HP series. To date, the Pope has remained silent on the subject. It turns out that an assistant to then Cardinal Ratzinger, made a few comments (under the signature of the Cardinal) that acknowledges the potential “subtle” elements of the books that could conflict with faith. A better title would have been “Cardinal Aide may oppose subtle references in HP Novels.”

I have learned to take statements in the media the refer to the Pope with a grain of salt. Unless he is directly quoted, in context, it is likely nothing more than media spin.

Nohome