Pope: Other denominations not true churches

[Jaypeeto4]

Wow! I have had phone calls on this one! It is as if I made the claim myself. My question to the Protestants is why they care what the Pope says about anything? They deny the Pope’s authority and then get frothy when he says something they don’t like. Being in the South though, and being the sole Catholic in the family, I am treated as if suddenly I don’t believe anyone else is a Christian. Fun times abound…

What I don’t understand is how protestant Christians can be upset at such a declaration at all. Is it just because the Pope said it, and that the pope said that the protestant churches are wrong on certain issues?? Why should that bother the protestants? They declare EACH OTHER WRONG on a whole host of issues. I’ll give you an example. I was having a friendly chat with the local Southern Baptist pastor about Baptism.
I was Presbyterian, and had been baptized by pouring.
The Baptist pastor asserted that those who pour instead of immerse are DEAD WRONG. He went on and on about technical meanings of the Greek word baptizo meaning dunking, and when I would counter with evidence that the early church ALSO used pouring even during apostolic times, his face got blood red with anger and that long vein in the center of his forehead popped out. And his eyes were blazing like flames of fire. I’m lucky I made it out of his office alive.

So protestants are allowed to declare each other’s religions “wrong” on a variety of issues and practices,
but the Catholic Pope MUST NOT BE permitted to do so???
Sounds two-faced and hypocritical to me.

Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+

 

[4HisChurch]

Wanted to add that I’ve gotten some interesting responses to this as well. Someone I know insisted that the document (“the pope”) said that Protestants were not allowed to call themselves Churches and that they couldn’t receive (their own) communion. Yeah…

It should get increasingly interesting.

 

[Digitonomy]

Wow! I have had phone calls on this one! It is as if I made the claim myself. My question to the Protestants is why they care what the Pope says about anything? …Is it just because the Pope said it, and that the pope said that the protestant churches are wrong on certain issues?? Why should that bother the protestants? They declare EACH OTHER WRONG on a whole host of issues. I’ll give you an example…Jaypeeto4+JMJ+

The example you gave was a protestant getting upset that another denomination disagrees with him - why are you astonished that some protestants would likewise get upset upon discovering Catholics disagree with them?

 

[agp2176]

Pardon the abruptness of my joining the conversation. I’m new here, and may repeat some things that others have said, but wanted to add my thoughts.

First, I have read not only the reports in the secular media but also the document itself. I came away feeling that the secular media read an entirely different document. I also came away with a wonderful respect for the precise use of language used by our Holy Father. Each word is finely crafted and carries more meaning than the garden variety definition. In other words, this document is not dumbed down, as is most of our news.

The word ‘defect’ is entirely appropriate in the context used. The theology that grew out of the reformation IS defective. Any Christian theology that discards the truth, such as the Real Presence, is incomplete. If you bought a car and it was missing the motor, hence incomplete, it would be defective. It is therefore not a slur, or an attack upon the dignity of our non-Catholic brothers and sisters to use the word defect, but rather a very frank commentary on the beliefs followed. It does not in any way take away from the truth of the love that Our Lord has for them.

Two final thoughts on defective theology. Surely our Protestant brothers and sisters might just as easily use said same term, invalidly of course, in describing Catholic dogma. One must consider use of the term as a comparative.

On the subject of the ‘not true churches’ comment, one must however read this in context of the sentence which acknowledges Protestent denominations as ecclesial communities. This very carefully crafted turn of phrase in no way diminutises the Christocentric nature of these denominations. Rather it re-enforces our oneness in Christ, a oneness that cries out for unity, a unity that is found in the universality of the one catholic church established by Christ.

Finally on the subject of the Orthodox churches and Protestantism being wounded, as I thought about it, I was inclined to think of the entire body of the Christianity as if it were a human body. If the hand should decide that it wants to carry out all the functions of the rest of the body as performed by the heart or the brain, and thusly separates itself, has it not wounded itself as well as the rest of the body?

Once again the profoundness and depth of our Holy Father’s words is truly awesome. I guess its quite telling that here’s me, without a college degree of any sort, fully able to understand them, yet those who no doubt have far more education than I do, can’t even fathom the meaning.

In Christ’s Peace

Tony

 

[christcnection1]

Pardon the abruptness of my joining the conversation. I’m new here, and may repeat some things that others have said, but wanted to add my thoughts.

First, I have read not only the reports in the secular media but also the document itself. I came away feeling that the secular media read an entirely different document. I also came away with a wonderful respect for the precise use of language used by our Holy Father. Each word is finely crafted and carries more meaning than the garden variety definition. In other words, this document is not dumbed down, as is most of our news.

The word ‘defect’ is entirely appropriate in the context used. The theology that grew out of the reformation IS defective. Any Christian theology that discards the truth, such as the Real Presence, is incomplete. If you bought a car and it was missing the motor, hence incomplete, it would be defective. It is therefore not a slur, or an attack upon the dignity of our non-Catholic brothers and sisters to use the word defect, but rather a very frank commentary on the beliefs followed. It does not in any way take away from the truth of the love that Our Lord has for them.

Two final thoughts on defective theology. Surely our Protestant brothers and sisters might just as easily use said same term, invalidly of course, in describing Catholic dogma. One must consider use of the term as a comparative.

On the subject of the ‘not true churches’ comment, one must however read this in context of the sentence which acknowledges Protestent denominations as ecclesial communities. This very carefully crafted turn of phrase in no way diminutises the Christocentric nature of these denominations. Rather it re-enforces our oneness in Christ, a oneness that cries out for unity, a unity that is found in the universality of the one catholic church established by Christ.

Finally on the subject of the Orthodox churches and Protestantism being wounded, as I thought about it, I was inclined to think of the entire body of the Christianity as if it were a human body. If the hand should decide that it wants to carry out all the functions of the rest of the body as performed by the heart or the brain, and thusly separates itself, has it not wounded itself as well as the rest of the body?

Once again the profoundness and depth of our Holy Father’s words is truly awesome. I guess its quite telling that here’s me, without a college degree of any sort, fully able to understand them, yet those who no doubt have far more education than I do, can’t even fathom the meaning.

In Christ’s Peace

Tony

Welcome to CAF Tony!

I enjoyed your first post, and I can tell that our dear Lord will use you to help shape hearts and minds here. Continue to speak the truth in love.

God bless,
JB

 

[mlchance]

Here’s what the head of the Catholic Church Benedict (the Pope)said about salvation;

“Other Christian communities are either defective or not true churches and Catholicism provides the only true path to salvation.” He said that other Christian denominations are not true churches but merely ecclesial communities and therefore do not have the "means of salvation."

The part in bold above is not the Pope’s words. Rather than accept MSNBC’s word for what the Pope said, do what has been suggested ad nauseum. Find one of the many posts which link the documents mentioned in the article and actually read the Church’s own words. The document referenced by the above paragraph is Dominus Iesus. It uses the phrase “means of salvation” twice, and in neither instance says non-Catholics cannot be saved.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Sounds like good solid Orthodoxy. This is the right time for this statement. It is showing that the Catholic Church is the One True Faith, and is attacking the ever-growing heresy of Pluralism.

Rome has been rather in favour of pluralism, in the past - certainly of some kinds (granted, some kinds are destructive of the Church; but not all)​

So pluralism can hardly be the issue.

 

[smokey888]

The Catholic Church is the declared enemy of certain political elements and hence of the mainstream media.

It does’t matter what the Church does – release a statement or not – it will be distorted and used against the Church.

I don’t recall any during JP II’s time but I must admit, I wasn’t a big follower of news from or about Rome etc; but again, I don’t recall anything close to this. Huge statement to the many but only directed to a few – so I’m told.

 

[Robert902]

The part in bold above is not the Pope’s words. Rather than accept MSNBC’s word for what the Pope said, do what has been suggested ad nauseum. Find one of the many posts which link the documents mentioned in the article and actually read the Church’s own words. The document referenced by the above paragraph is Dominus Iesus. It uses the phrase “means of salvation” twice, and in neither instance says non-Catholics cannot be saved.

– Mark L. Chance.

Vatican II did not withdraw the infallible dogma “outside the church there is no salvation.” In fact Vatican II’s document Lumen Gentium reaffirms this dogma, and it’s document Dignitatis Humanae teaches that “Catholicism is the only true religion.”
The Pope was just restating Catholic doctrine. It’s also what I was taught in Catholic High School. The Priests, Nuns and Brothers were very clear that only Catholics in good standing could go to heaven.
Sure has stirred up a hornets nest hasn’t it?

God Bless,
Robert

 

[smokey888]

Emphasis mine.

The very people who need this are the ones who were upset by it.

I didn’t need it.

The ones who didn’t need it just yawned when they read it. You seem to be saying the Catholic (aka universal) Church should only preach to the choir instead of the whole world.

This isn’t preaching to the whole world, this was more like ‘lets bring up something for the whole world that use to really divide us’, of course, I already know a few don’t agree. More importantly, I was told earlier that it was mainly met for a “few” thologians - which was the reason for my comments that you responded to w/o reading.

Test Question (to see if you read the document): What is this “it” that the Catholic Church has that Protestants don’t. After you’ve identified this “it,” don’t you think that most Protestants will themselves admit that they don’t have “it” and that many of them got rid of “it” on purpose?

They did get rid of us, and on purpose. The “it” was the articles following his double-dipping about Catholics having the fullness … etc.

The Church has apologized for the sins its members have committed. This document has nothing to do with the reasons for the Protestant reformation. Why are you so hung up on Luther?

Isn’t that when they lost “it”? Isn’t all this related then?

I disagree with your strategy of constant apologizing.

And I disagree with the need for the Pope to bring this up to the millions. Where I live (175,000 pop) this document/subject just came out of the blue, there was absolutely no need for it to be brought up again and all it has done is P people off. If he couldn’t figure that out, then maybe we elected the wrong person.

This document was written in a straightforward and honest manner. It lays out Church teaching while speaking as positively as possible about our separated brothers and sisters. What more can you ask for?

It wasn’t needed in 99.9% of the world. It has set us back … a lot! It was already on the books. It doesn’t accomplish peace, love or hope or charity, it has DIVIDED. If you don’t see that you’ve been reading to much religious law, get out with the people for awhile.

If only the denominations would release the same type of documents explaining their doctrine, we might be able to get somewhere.

My guess is right now, they will have no use for any dialouge for some time.

 

[smokey888]

The Pope did the right thing. He can’t help how the media plays it.

You bring up some good points. I agree, something was needed for that priest and probably others. I just don’t think what the Pope did was at all, the right way to go about it. He could have reviewed several items, for instance. But to zero in on this one item to the millions, I just really thought it was very poorly selected, needed and will only set us back.

 

[brianwalden]

Test Question (to see if you read the document): What is this “it” that the Catholic Church has that Protestants don’t. After you’ve identified this “it,” don’t you think that most Protestants will themselves admit that they don’t have “it” and that many of them got rid of “it” on purpose?

They did get rid of us, and on purpose. The “it” was the articles following his double-dipping about Catholics having the fullness … etc.

…

I disagree with your strategy of constant apologizing.

And I disagree with the need for the Pope to bring this up to the millions. Where I live (175,000 pop) this document/subject just came out of the blue, there was absolutely no need for it to be brought up again and all it has done is P people off. If he couldn’t figure that out, then maybe we elected the wrong person.

In the above quote my words are regular, yours are bold.

The “it” is Apostolic succession. This document wasn’t written by the pope. It was written by Cardinal Levada and the CDF. And the document very clearly says that the reason it was issued is because the CDF was getting a lot of questions concerning doctrine on the Church.

You obviously still haven’t read the document. I’m sorry but it’s very difficult to have an intelligent discussion about a document when not all the participants have read it.

 

[brianwalden]

Is it true the Pope said “there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church?”

I don’t believe this was in the recent document, but it is part of the magisterium of the Catholic Church. Here’s a little bit of explanation about it: Salvation Outside the Church

 

[mlchance]

…only Catholics in good standing could go to heaven.

That is not Catholic teaching, as anyone who actually reads the recent document, Dominus Iesus, or, say, the Catechism, would know. The Church does not teach that only “Catholics in good standing” get to go to Heaven, and Benedict XVI did not say that non-Catholic Christians lack the “means of salvation.” From Dominus Iesus (emphasis mine):
“Therefore, these separated Churches and communities as such, though we believe they suffer from defects, have by no means been deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church”.-- Mark L. Chance.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I don’t recall any during JP II’s time but I must admit, I wasn’t a big follower of news from or about Rome etc; but again, I don’t recall anything close to this. Huge statement to the many but only directed to a few – so I’m told.

Don’t recall any what?

John Paul the Great released many documents during his Papacy – including one that declared the Church has no power to ordain women.

 

[ReflectHim]

Here a blog post that I couldn’t agree with more

rolandsmartin.com/blog/?p=82#more-82

 

[christcnection1]

Here a blog post that I couldn’t agree with more

rolandsmartin.com/blog/?p=82#more-82

You’ve got to be kidding me!

“For him to even suggest that only the Catholic Church can provide true salvation to believers in Christ shows that he is wholly ignorant of the Scriptures that I have known all my life.”

This was only one segment of many which are a load of dung. This man may love the Lord and be a brother in Christ, but he is an ignoramus.

The Pope and Catholic Chuch considers all “churches” part of the same Church (though imperfectly) and as brother and sisters in Christ (separated brethren).

Based on the article, it seems his years as a Catholic were not that good; however, he did acknowledge one Catholic parish that has a vibrant community. Although I’m not sure, it seems he has an axe to grind.

At the very least, he suffers from a common Protestant problem of assuming he knows what the Catholic Church teaches before truly understanding it. It’s hard to respect these “men of God” if they make these bold proclamations without dealing with true Church teachings – not caricature versions of what we truly believe.

This article is down right sad and pathetic; that’s about as charitable as I can get. How many of his people will be confused and misinformed as a result of this? Apparently you are ReflectHim.

I have no doubt that you desire to “reflect Him,” but seriously my dear sibling in Christ, go the source before you jump to conclusions. Okay?

Perhaps Roland S Martin would like to speak with the hundreds of former Protestant ministers and pastors who have converted to the Catholic Church in recent years. Most of them did this because they found the Catholic Church more Biblical.

www.chnetwork.org

God Bless,
JB

 

[vern_humphrey]

When I first read it, I thought it had been written by Roland & Martin.

 

[4HisChurch]

First, I have read not only the reports in the secular media but also the document itself. I came away feeling that the secular media read an entirely different document.

Exactly!! I’ve been thinking this, not only about the secular media, but about some people I’ve been having conversations with, as well.

 

[Qwikness]

MSN.com discussion board is killing this topic. There must be 400,000 posts on this one topic. Many of it virulent Anti-Catholic. Anti-Pope, Anti-Christian, Anti-Religion.
boards.msn.com/MSNBCboards/thread.aspx?boardid=380&ThreadID=339581