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estesbob
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And your contention has been refuted about a dozen or more times. But you never repond-you just post the Council of Florence again as if this time people will beleive your erroneous 'personal’interperation
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bobzills
Guest
There was no interpretation. There were only the quotes cited without commentary.
I wrote:
For example here is a quote from UNAM SANCTAM
Bull of Pope Boniface VIII promulgated November 18, 1302
:
“Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”
or another similar declaration:
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441:“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia productive of eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”
BTW, to read the second quote in context, please see:
ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/FLORENCE.HTM#5
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christcnection1
Guest
What is your personal interpretation of this? What’s your goal in showing it?
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bobzills
Guest
I didn’t give a personal interpretation or commentary on it, because it is pretty clear what it says in plain words. The reasoning behind my showing the quotes was in support of what was said in post #266. Also, if you want the context of the quotes please see:
ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/FLORENCE.HTM#5
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Jim_Conrad
Guest
Ecumenism is a good thing, but diluting the truth is not. The Catholic Church is the only truly apoltolic church in the world - historically and spiritually traced to Jesus Christ, instituting the priesthood and Eucharist at the Last Supper, followed by institution of Reconciliation in the upper room after His Resurrection. We don’t need to get an elitist attitude, but we need to stand firm and defend our faith with grace, gentleness, but firmness. As usual, the secular media will spin this. If anyone knows where to find the actual papal document, please advise so I can read the actual language.
Peace!
Jim
Peace!
Jim
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estesbob
Guest
OH MY-there was a council in FLORENCE that supports everythng you say??? WOW_why didnt somebody post this before!!!
By my count there have been at least 10 posts categorically destroying your take on this conference. And you have NEVER responded to any of these posts other than post the Council of Florence quotes again and again and again.
For anyone who has just dropped in Bobzilla totally ignores the fact that being saved through the Church does not mean one has to physically be member of the Church. This Has ALWAYS been the Teaching of the Church.
For those who want to know the Truth a good place to start is here:
catholic.com/library/Salvation_Outside_the_Church.asp
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christcnection1
Guest
Yes, and if the Church taught different than it did then, that would be a serious contradiction and departure of belief. If that was true, I cannot see anyone, in good conscience, remaining Catholic.OH MY-there was a council in FLORENCE that supports everythng you say??? WOW_why didnt somebody post this before!!!
By my count there have been at least 10 posts categorically destroying your take on this conference. And you have NEVER responded to any of these posts other than post the Council of Florence quotes again and again and again.
For anyone who has just dropped in Bobzilla totally ignores the fact that being saved through the Church does not mean one has to physically be member of the Church. This Has ALWAYS been the Teaching of the Church.
For those who want to know the Truth a good place to start is here:
catholic.com/library/Salvation_Outside_the_Church.asp
Yes, the Church always believed the link above.
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marko1967
Guest
I received an interesting email from a conservative organization that spoke about the Pope’s comments. They were a little bent out of shape, but it should be no surprise since they were not Catholic.
It is too long to add here, but I am sure that Jimmy and Karl would have a field day with the facts!
PatriotPost.US/alexander/edition.asp?id=542
God bless the Pope, God bless the Catholic Church, and God bless Catholic.com!
It is too long to add here, but I am sure that Jimmy and Karl would have a field day with the facts!
PatriotPost.US/alexander/edition.asp?id=542
God bless the Pope, God bless the Catholic Church, and God bless Catholic.com!
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ChristianVet
Guest
This particular pope is so incredibly intelligent when it comes to Christian doctrine, and he is extremely wise and gentle.
If he speaks about Christian doctrine, at any point and time, you can believe him, trust him, and rest assured it is wise counsel.
The only thing one has to be embarassed about is the fact that one did not already know and understand what it is the Holy Father is teaching about.
The embarassment belongs to the newsmedia, not to the Pope.
If he speaks about Christian doctrine, at any point and time, you can believe him, trust him, and rest assured it is wise counsel.
The only thing one has to be embarassed about is the fact that one did not already know and understand what it is the Holy Father is teaching about.
The embarassment belongs to the newsmedia, not to the Pope.
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El_camino
Guest
I think you have it backwards, things are not INFALLIBLE until declared otherwise. Vatican II did not declared anything infallibly.
Having said that… we as Catholics are to be obedient to the Church in all her teachings even those she has not declared infallibly.
Many blessings,
E.C.
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Lepanto
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Genesis315
Guest
Bravo! 
The fact that we are applauding an article that states something that should be apparent to everyone anyway, just shows the totally irrational society that has been born out of “rationalism.”
The fact that we are applauding an article that states something that should be apparent to everyone anyway, just shows the totally irrational society that has been born out of “rationalism.”
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So_Catholic
Guest
:extrahappy:Bravo!
The fact that we are applauding an article that states something that should be apparent to everyone anyway, just shows the totally irrational society that has been born out of “rationalism.”
yep dont ya just love it?
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toaslan
Guest
A convert in my apologetics class was disappointed that the pope had re-asserted that the Catholic Church is the true faith–she thought we had made so much progress achieving charity with protestantism, and why spoil it now? But all around the table, we agreed, this is in fact what we as Catholics believe. Maybe for decades we have been emphasizing what we have in common with the non-Catholic Christian world, and even with believers in general–it has never meant that what is uniquely Catholic does not still radically identify the Catholic Church as the ONE. I welcome the CLARITY of the pope’s statement!
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bobzills
Guest
It looks to me like the Church has changed her teaching on this:
In addition to the Council of Florence, we have other declarations:
Pope St. Pius X, Acerbo Nimis (# 2), April 15, 1905:
“And so Our Predecessor, Benedict XIV, had just cause to write: ‘We declare that a great number of those who are condemned to eternal punishment suffer that everlasting calamity because of ignorance of those mysteries of faith which must be known and believed in order to be numbered among the elect.’”
Pope Gregory XVI, Summo Iugiter Studio, May 27, 1832: “Finally some of these misguided people attempt to persuade themselves and others that men are not saved only in the Catholic religion, but that even heretics may attain eternal life… "
St. Augustine (+426): “Consequently both those who have not heard the gospel and those who, having heard it, and having been changed for the better, did not receive perseverance… none of these are separated from that lump which is known to be damned, as all are going… into condemnation.”
Pope St. Gregory the Great, quoted in Summo Iugiter Studio, 590-604:
“The holy universal Church teaches that it is not possible to worship God truly except in her and asserts that all who are outside of her will not be saved.”
Pope Clement VI, Super quibusdam, Sept. 20, 1351:
“In the second place, we ask whether you and the Armenians obedient to you believe that no man of the wayfarers outside the faith of this Church, and outside the obedience to the Pope of Rome, can finally be saved.”
Pope Paul III, The Council of Trent, Can. 2 on the Sacrament of Baptism, Sess. 7, 1547, ex cathedra: “If anyone shall say that real and natural water is not necessary for baptism, and on that account those words of Our Lord Jesus Christ: ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit’ [John 3:5], are distorted into some sort of metaphor: let him be anathema.”
However, now it is taught differently, that a Jew or Buddhist can be saved. And in the case of the Jew, it is said that he can be saved by the Old Covenant.
Actually, there are a lot of other areas where the Church has changed her teaching, perhaps under the idea of development of doctrine, so it should not be too surprising.
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estesbob
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christcnection1
Guest
Well, as previously mentioned, this is not how mainstream Catholic scholars, including the Pope, interpret these things.
All the information you gave here can easily be reconciled with the Church’s interpretation of today. Your interpretation is not how the Church definitively proclaimed these truths in the past.
If you are convinced of this perspective, why do you remain Catholic? I would not. Do you belong to one of these fringe Catholic sects?
For those who are just looking into the issue…
catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0512fea3.asp
I am a former Evangelical I can attest that the Holy Spirit is alive and well in many of these churches. Although they are “separated brethren,” they are indeed brothers and sisters in Christ, and love our dear Lord profoundly.
It is my opinion that if the Lord should open their eyes to the Catholic Church, they would happily convert out of love for the Lord. They are not rejecting the Catholic Church on the basis that they are resisting God. Many of them would happily die for their Savior, who bled and died for them.
What sort of “God of love” would reject those who would do such an act? The Christian God of love and mercy would not reject them, but has already embraced them as His own.
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bobzills
Guest
there is the Catholic theory of development of doctrine, which i beleive has been stretched to cover these changes. My point is, that under that cover, a lot of teachings have been changed or reinterpreted to use a more politically correct phrase. I am not opposed to changing (or is it reinterpreting) teachings for the better.
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estesbob
Guest
Well that explains a lot. Generally when Catholics erroneously claim the Church has chaged it teachings the next step is to claim that snce they have always changed thier teachings they should change those on either
abortion
contraception
homosexuality
female ordination
euthanasia
all or part of the above
Which ones do you embrace?
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bobzills
Guest
To answer your rude yawning questions, I do not embrace any one of those explicitly listed. However, I do think that it might be a good idea to consider a married priesthood. It might not be a bad idea these days to have a wife around to keep an eye on her husband.
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