Pope revises catechism to say death penalty is 'inadmissible'

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mere_christian said:
53 countries still have the death penalty, indonesia is one example, what about places like Sudan? or Somalia? Arguing that they have the systems in place to adequately protect citizens from murders and the like is laughable.
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Part of developing a country is making sure human rights are a part of the equation. You cannot have human rights, if you have the death penalty. It just doesn’t work.

The EU advocates for this, for instance, and spends a heap to get it done.

You need to ensure fair elections, no politically motivate persecution, and no state sanctioned death.

It’s part of the American culture, so yes it’ll be a hard pill to swallow that you now really can’t be pro-death penalty without violating the CCC. Essentially American Catholics have to pro-life, in every event.
 
I’m going to retire from this topic for a bit so I can digest this and get some perspective.
 
So pleased about this - government sanctioned killing never sat well with me.
 
LittleFlower said:
You cannot have human rights, if you have the death penalty. It just doesn’t work.
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This just seems too much for me.

Human rights in the 21st century? Or human rights ever?

Okay, retiring…
 
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irenaeus1 said:
Also, Pope Pius XII, who provided the most systematic and detailed treatment of the subject (not sure why he is totally ignored in all this), taught heresy.
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This is not a matter of heresy. Calm down.
 
repentant2 said:
Maybe by locking up prisoners in solitary confinement.

But give it 50 years and someone will come along and start campaigning that humans are social creatures and that leaving them in solitary is cruel and unusual.
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It is cruel.
Wesrock said:
Human rights in the 21st century? Or human rights ever?
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Basically, ever. The sanctity of human life is the foundation of human rights. It is also the foundation stone of the pro-life movement. If it’s not okay to abort a baby, it’s not okay to kill another human being as part of state sanction murder.
 
That’s not what I am asking you. Do you understand the role of the Holy Spirit in the Church
 
Doctrine developing seems to me to just be a euphemism for the Church changes its teaching. If doctrine can develop to the point where the church does a complete 180 then how can i trust that other matters taught today wont also change with the times. The whole point of the church is so we dont have subjective morality, that changes with the times. But if thats how the Catholic church operates and if catholics are happy with that. I dont know why im arguing.
 
Maybe by locking up prisoners in solitary confinement.

But give it 50 years and someone will come along and start campaigning that humans are social creatures and that leaving them in solitary is cruel and unusual.

I am pretty sure this has already been stated by Pope Francis. Didn’t he say that life in prison was unjust and as bad as the death penalty (which is now abolished in the Catholic Church?)
 
mere_christian said:
Yes and I know the holy spirit doesn’t contradict itself, it doesn’t make mistakes. Hence my sadness because it is evident that at some point the church has made a mistake on this topic. Either in the past, or now. In which case it can not have been a product of the holy spirit.
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I would suggest that you go back and study the teachings of Christ. He changed a lot of the Old Testament. Was this not the work of God? He told us to turn the other cheek. Was that not the work of God? Do you sincerely believe that the Holy Spirit prefers that we kill those who hurt us?

In Christian teaching, the death penalty has been justified as a necessary evil. Without the necessity it is just evil.

I pray the Holy Spirit will increase the understanding of those who believe that the Holy Spirit prefers the death penalty to life in prison or any other suitable punishment.
 
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mere_christian said:
The state acts on Gods behalf in these matters, so they do have the authority to punish evil doers with death.

Just in case you say it is just my opinion here is what St Augustine has to say
The agent who executes the killing does not commit homicide; he is an instrument as is the sword with which he cuts. Therefore, it is in no way contrary to the commandment, ‘Thou shalt not kill’ to wage war at God’s bidding, or for the representatives of public authority to put criminals to death, according to the law, that is, the will of the most just reason.

The City of God, Book 1, chapter 21
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This would cover a soldier who fights in a war for country, but note how it would not cover the same soldier following the bidding of the state in a German concentration camp of WWII for the mass murder of Jews…See? It requires discernment…Thank God for Pope Francis, there is enlightenment offered here if one is open to it. He indeed has the authority and obligation as the voice of Christ on earth to speak on these issues.
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repentant2 said:
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mrsdizzyd:
The modern world has advanced to such an extent that taking human life is no longer necessary.
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Maybe by locking up prisoners in solitary confinement.

But give it 50 years and someone will come along and start campaigning that humans are social creatures and that leaving them in solitary is cruel and unusual.
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Pope Francis has already called for abolishing life imprisonment as well. I wonder if he has any real suggestions as to how to keep dangerous individuals separated from society besides telling people what they can’t do…

 
See you don’t understand the role of the Holy Spirit. When are you entering RCIA
 
Let me try to understand this: When God commanded the death penalty in the Old Testament, this was ‘inadmissible’ ?
 
repentant2 said:
So in your ideal world how are the most dangerous prisoners to be separated from society and other prisoners and guards so that they can do no more harm?
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Below is alright, and they can pair up with another person and talk. This seems reasonable, and compassionate.
Prisoners spend at least 16 hours a day in their cells. They eat in them, shower in them, defecate in them. They can have a radio, TV and kettle. No internet. Depending on their behaviour they might be allowed into the exercise yard where they can play handball, basketball or work out on the chin-up bars. If they’re really good they get access to the running track at the centre of the complex. The track’s small but hard to miss. It’s slathered in netting to stop contraband being hurled in – or a helicopter landing.
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https://www.theaustralian.com.au/li...k=7dd5c4be3a09945f7d1b0627af507040-1533214432
 
I didn’t when I made my post, but I have now. It doesn’t really say much other than this is a development. It seems a leap to me. It doesn’t address at all this element of punishment, also in the catechism: “Punishment has the primary aim of redressing the disorder introduced by the offense. When it is willingly accepted by the guilty party, it assumes the value of expiation.” Redressing the disorder introduced into the order of justice is not addressed at all other than to dismiss it. Satisfaction/expiation being made by the offender is also not addressed. Nor does it address the Scriptures at all, such as found throughout the Old Testament and Romans 13, nor the Gospels which treat the crucifixion of Dismas and the other thief as just.

I have a feeling a ton of ink will be spilled on this–or bytes produced as the case may be–so we’ll see. It seems to me the Church needs to at least acknowledge the fact that this penalty is not unjust or contrary to the natural law or revelation strictly as a matter of retribution, but that the other circumstantial factors and experience make it something to be reproved. The CDF letter tries to go down this path, but then makes a leap to an absolutist statement. I don’t see any bridge to that conclusion. We’ll see.

The bizarre manner in which this is being done doesn’t help.
 
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Christ said
“Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matt. 5:17-19)
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I suggest you taking a closer look at the new testament again and catholic teaching with regards to the old

this might be helpful

 
repentant2 said:
Maybe by locking up prisoners in solitary confinement.

But give it 50 years and someone will come along and start campaigning that humans are social creatures and that leaving them in solitary is cruel and unusual.
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The Supreme Court of Mexico has already ruled that a sentence of life without parole is cruel and unusual punishment.

(As a result, criminals in Mexico who face this sentence in the US are not extradited to the US, along with those who face the death penalty.)
 
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