Pope says he's saddened by 'perfect' Catholics who despise others

[philipl]

He is guided by the Holy Spirit. So no, not just my opinion.

So every thing he says is guide by the holy spirit?

 

[PluniaZ]

So St. Peter was guided by the Spirit when he acted in hypocrisy? So the pope at the time of St. Catherine of Siena was guided by the Spirit when he wanted to move the papacy from Rome to Avignon?

If the biggest mistake the Pope has made in 2000 years is where to live and with whom to eat, I’ll follow every single thing he says.

 

[PluniaZ]

So every thing he says is guide by the holy spirit?

So every single believer is guided by the Holy Spirit when picking and choosing which teachings of the Pope they feel like following?

 

[HCTC]

It seems to me that the Pope is the one doing the despising, with his constant and very numerous insults of loyal Catholics.

I remember my daughter when she was 12 years old complaining to me that she thought I was expecting perfection from her. I told her no, that no one is perfect. What I expected was for her to know the rules and boundaries, and if she violated those things to take responsibility for it.

On this particular score, the Pope sounds like my 12 year old, no kidding.

“There were some scribes, those who believed they were perfect,” the pope said. “And I think about so many Catholics who think they are perfect and scorn others. This is sad.”

It is interesting to me that you are insulted because you feel that Pope Francis was describing you. In my humble opinion, how you raised your daughter isn’t pertinent to what the Holy Father said. If on the other hand, you feel that you are qualified generally to sit in judgement of others then you are probably correct - he was describing you. If the shoe fits, wear it.

How did you feel about the rest of Pope Francis’ comments?

Although Jesus’ love toward the sick and the marginalized “baffles his contemporaries,” it reveals God’s heart as the place where suffering men and women can find love, compassion and healing, Pope Francis said.

“How many people continue today in a wayward life because they find no one willing to look at them in a different way, with the eyes – or better yet – with the heart of God, meaning with hope,” he said. But “Jesus sees the possibility of a resurrection even in those who have made so many wrong choices.”

Oftentimes, the pope continued, Christians become accustomed to having their sins forgiven and receiving God’s unconditional love while forgetting the heavy price Jesus paid by dying on the cross.

By forgiving sinners, Jesus doesn’t seek to free them from a guilty conscience, but rather offers “people who have made mistakes the hope of a new life, a life marked by love,” the pope said.

The church is a people formed “of sinners who have experienced the mercy and forgiveness of God,” Pope Francis said. Christians are “all poor sinners” who need God’s mercy, “which strengthens us and gives us hope.”

 

[James248]

If the biggest mistake the Pope has made in 2000 years is where to live and with whom to eat, I’ll follow every single thing he says.

You’re downplaying two very significant decisions.

Peter’s decision would have severely compromised the unity of the believers. In effect, he was confirming the belief that Gentiles were second class citizens in the Church. Paul still followed Peter, even though he lambasted him publicly.

 

[BroIgnatius]

“There were some scribes, those who believed they were perfect,” the pope said. “And I think about so many Catholics who think they are perfect and scorn others. This is sad.”

It is interesting to me that you are insulted because you feel that Pope Francis was describing you. In my humble opinion, how you raised your daughter isn’t pertinent to what the Holy Father said. If on the other hand, you feel that you are qualified generally to sit in judgement of others then you are probably correct - he was describing you. If the shoe fits, wear it.

I have already stated that I was not insulted. As for his 100s of insults, yes, some of them do refer to me and 100s of millions of other Catholics who love and practice the faith, and have genuine concerns about the ambiguity of the Pope that seems to challenge that historic tradition.

I am sorry that you could not understand the analogy I made about my daughter, but it was spot on. Thanks for you opinion, though.

As for judging others, we are all called to do that by the Bible and by the Saints and by the Church. If you want details, see this essay. It describe what kinds of judgment are allowed and which are not. Then look it up in the bible and in Church teaching.

By the way, St. Paul judged Pope Peter wrong and corrected him. St. Catherine of Senna judge the Pope wrong and corrected him.

And, you just judged me.

The Spiritual Works of Mercy include “Admonish a sinner.” Can’t do that without first judging that the person is first sinning. Also, “Instruct the Ignorant”, which also takes a judgment that someone is ignorant. The whole realm of apologetics does that one.

 

[James248]

So every single believer is guided by the Holy Spirit when picking and choosing which teachings of the Pope they feel like following?

He never suggested anything of the sort. Unlike your earlier post.

 

[esieffe]

He is guided by the Holy Spirit. So no, not just my opinion.

So the Holy Spirit suggested sarcasm? I think his comment was more in the line of personal convictions.

 

[HCTC]

I am not insulted by his message, per se. But, his reference to perfect people who despise images the over 100+ insults he gives to loyal Catholics, one of which is that they think they are perfect, which is not true, any more than it was true with my daughter. His speech was not just about what it said on the surface. He has a habit of making criticism and insults in both a in-you-face manner and in a subtle veiled manner.

You indicate that you are at once both not insulted “per se” yet insulted as one of a group of “loyal Catholics” yadda, yadda… If the shoe fits, just wear it. If not, ignore it. Btw, I have not judged you, but I have formed the opinion that you surely feel insulted and angry.

 

[Crusaderbear]

All The Pope is saying is not to drive away those who may not live up to some self imposed set of high standards. Isn’t that was Jesus did when he chastised the Pharisees for building walls in the faith to keep the lesser practicioners out? Jesus never said that he who prays the loudest, or kneels the longest, or goes to church the mostest wins!

Additionally, there may be something lost in translation (possibly on purpose) by the press to sow hate and discontent in the flock.

Live your life as best you can, don’t force it on others, let them work out their fate with the Lord on their own. You may warn them, when needed, but not try and force them to your path!

 

[shockerfan]

No, the Pope is always guided by the Holy Spirit. Vatican I did not limit the Pope’s authority.

"*For the Holy Spirit was promised to the successors of Peter not so that they might, by his revelation, make known some new doctrine, but that, by his assistance, they might religiously guard and faithfully expound the revelation or deposit of faith transmitted by the apostles.

Indeed, their apostolic teaching was embraced by all the venerable fathers and reverenced and followed by all the holy orthodox doctors, for they knew very well that this See of St. Peter always remains unblemished by any error*, in accordance with the divine promise of our Lord and Savior to the prince of his disciples: I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren."

ewtn.com/library/councils/V1.htm

And you reversed the order - the bishops have authority when they are in communion with the Pope, not the other away around.

“Although the individual bishops do not enjoy the prerogative of infallibility, they nevertheless proclaim Christ’s doctrine infallibly whenever, even though dispersed through the world, but still maintaining the bond of communion among themselves and with the successor of Peter, and authentically teaching matters of faith and morals, they are in agreement on one position as definitively to be held.”

The Pope is supreme and infallible. Catholics need to hold their tongue and obey him.

You seem to be talking past my point. Let me be clear: The Pope is infallible, in specific instances, not with everything he says or does. He is a sinner and goes to confession…he is not impeccable. Outside of the charism of infallibility, he can err.

Some popes were quite the scoundrels…fathering children, etc. When they did those things, they were not guided by the Holy Spirit.

I’m certainly not disagreeing with all of your points, I agree with many, I’m just addressing a particular point you made.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

All The Pope is saying is not to drive away those who may not live up to some self imposed set of high standards. Isn’t that was Jesus did when he chastised the Pharisees for building walls in the faith to keep the lesser practicioners out? Jesus never said that he who prays the loudest, or kneels the longest, or goes to church the mostest wins!

Additionally, there may be something lost in translation (possibly on purpose) by the press to sow hate and discontent in the flock.

Live your life as best you can, don’t force it on others, let them work out their fate with the Lord on their own. You may warn them, when needed, but not try and force them to your path!

Also, those who are recoiling from what the Pope said, keep in mind that he’s dealing with people inside the Vatican, who are protecting their turf at the top of the ladder.

They probably have a lot to do with his motivation for coming out with statements like in the article.

Pope Francis is a reflection of Jesus Christ, which is why he’s not well-liked by some in the upper-establishment of the Church.

Jim

 

[BroIgnatius]

You indicate that you are at once both not insulted “per se” yet insulted as one of a group of “loyal Catholics” yadda, yadda… If the shoe fits, just wear it. If not, ignore it. Btw, I have not judged you, but I have formed the opinion that you surely feel insulted and angry.

ya, you have made a judgment that I feel insulted and angry. That is a judgment.

 

[BroIgnatius]

Cardinal Burke warns against ‘idolatry of the papacy’

To treat every word uttered by the Pope as if it were official Church teaching would be to fall into an “idolatry of the papacy,” said Cardinal Raymond Burke in a recent address at a Catholic conference in Kentucky.

See article

 

[PluniaZ]

You seem to be talking past my point. Let me be clear: The Pope is infallible, in specific instances, not with everything he says or does. He is a sinner and goes to confession…he is not impeccable. Outside of the charism of infallibility, he can err.

Some popes were quite the scoundrels…fathering children, etc. When they did those things, they were not guided by the Holy Spirit.

I’m certainly not disagreeing with all of your points, I agree with many, I’m just addressing a particular point you made.

No one is suggesting the Pope is sinless.

But neither Vatican I nor any other council imposed limits on the Pope’s supremacy or infallibilty. It is ancient tradition, thoroughly cited in the canons of Vatican I, that the Pope has never erred.

This makes life very simple for Catholics: All we need to do is obey the Pope. We don’t have to worry whether he is right or wrong. Jesus has entrusted the successors of Peter with feeding his sheep, and all we, as simple sheep, need to do is follow our pastor, the Bishop of Rome.

But like the parable of the tares, an enemy has sown lies among Catholics, teaching that they can freely ignore the Pope unless he is teaching ex cathedra. Which has led to the internet today becoming a cesspool of schismatic self-appointed teachers who think they know the faith better than the Vicar of Jesus Christ.

One need only look at the Arians, Nestorians, monophysites, iconoclasts, schismatic easterners, protestants, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Unitarians, Muslims and atheists to see the fruit of not following the Pope.

 

[wild_thing]

I’m alarmed by the tenor of this thread. The Pope gives his weekly talk about how Jesus forgave the sinful woman while the scribes and Pharisees murmur against her, illustrating his remark by saying that we as Christians need to remember that we are all sinners, that we are all in need of mercy, and that we need to extend that mercy to others.

I believe it’s an invitation for all of us to reflect on our attitudes and search our consciences thoroughly for the times when we have acted like the Elder Brother from the parable of the Prodigal Son, or the Pharisee in the parable of the Publican.

If you feel that the Pope is speaking directly to you, maybe your defensiveness means that something has hit a little too close to home and needs to be reflected on and prayed about. How else can we grow if the Holy Spirit doesn’t prick our consciences from time to time?

As for criticizing the Pope and pointing out that St. Paul and St. Catherine of Siena corrected their popes- what are you saying? Are you a St. Paul or a Saint Catherine? Really? Besides the fact that they always tried to help guide the popes with charity, they lived in different times. Since Jesus told this very same Saint Catherine that no one was to criticize and judge His priests, that judgement of them was for Him alone, it worries me that people feel free to lambast Pope Francis. I urge you all to take his comments with a grain of salt, remembering that he promised to help the poor, the marginalized, the weak, and the despised, just like St. Francis before him and Jesus before that. Why are you scandalized when his homilies and talks do just that?

Pray very much for our Pope. His ability to be ruled and guided by the Holy Spirit rests on the strength of our prayers. If you feel he is lacking as a ruler, what prayers and sacrifices are you making on his behalf to God? Are you fasting non-stop like St. Catherine did, or enduring beatings and whippings like St. Paul? Until you have offered up sufferings, prayers, and alms on behalf of a person you do not like very much, you haven’t loved as Jesus has loved- with complete generosity and selflessness.

 

[ProdigalSun]

“There were some scribes, those who believed they were perfect,” the pope said. “And I think about so many Catholics who think they are perfect and scorn others. This is sad.”

It is interesting to me that you are insulted because you feel that Pope Francis was describing you. In my humble opinion, how you raised your daughter isn’t pertinent to what the Holy Father said. If on the other hand, you feel that you are qualified generally to sit in judgement of others then you are probably correct - he was describing you. If the shoe fits, wear it.

How did you feel about the rest of Pope Francis’ comments?

Although Jesus’ love toward the sick and the marginalized “baffles his contemporaries,” it reveals God’s heart as the place where suffering men and women can find love, compassion and healing, Pope Francis said.

“How many people continue today in a wayward life because they find no one willing to look at them in a different way, with the eyes – or better yet – with the heart of God, meaning with hope,” he said. But “Jesus sees the possibility of a resurrection even in those who have made so many wrong choices.”

Oftentimes, the pope continued, Christians become accustomed to having their sins forgiven and receiving God’s unconditional love while forgetting the heavy price Jesus paid by dying on the cross.

By forgiving sinners, Jesus doesn’t seek to free them from a guilty conscience, but rather offers “people who have made mistakes the hope of a new life, a life marked by love,” the pope said.

The church is a people formed “of sinners who have experienced the mercy and forgiveness of God,” Pope Francis said. Christians are “all poor sinners” who need God’s mercy, “which strengthens us and gives us hope.”

I was surprised by this too. WHen I first read what the pope said it brought to mind many of the profiles on here that seem to hate Trump with a passion but want to make out that they are perfect.

How very interesting!

 

[ProdigalSun]

I’m alarmed by the tenor of this thread. The Pope gives his weekly talk about how Jesus forgave the sinful woman while the scribes and Pharisees murmur against her, illustrating his remark by saying that we as Christians need to remember that we are all sinners, that we are all in need of mercy, and that we need to extend that mercy to others.

I believe it’s an invitation for all of us to reflect on our attitudes and search our consciences thoroughly for the times when we have acted like the Elder Brother from the parable of the Prodigal Son, or the Pharisee in the parable of the Publican.

If you feel that the Pope is speaking directly to you, maybe your defensiveness means that something has hit a little too close to home and needs to be reflected on and prayed about. How else can we grow if the Holy Spirit doesn’t prick our consciences from time to time?

As for criticizing the Pope and pointing out that St. Paul and St. Catherine of Siena corrected their popes- what are you saying? Are you a St. Paul or a Saint Catherine? Really? Besides the fact that they always tried to help guide the popes with charity, they lived in different times. Since Jesus told this very same Saint Catherine that no one was to criticize and judge His priests, that judgement of them was for Him alone, it worries me that people feel free to lambast Pope Francis. I urge you all to take his comments with a grain of salt, remembering that he promised to help the poor, the marginalized, the weak, and the despised, just like St. Francis before him and Jesus before that. Why are you scandalized when his homilies and talks do just that?

Pray very much for our Pope. His ability to be ruled and guided by the Holy Spirit rests on the strength of our prayers. If you feel he is lacking as a ruler, what prayers and sacrifices are you making on his behalf to God? Are you fasting non-stop like St. Catherine did, or enduring beatings and whippings like St. Paul? Until you have offered up sufferings, prayers, and alms on behalf of a person you do not like very much, you haven’t loved as Jesus has loved- with complete generosity and selflessness.

Thank you for this. I don’t believe Our Holy Father is directing his talk to anyone group of people but about a general principle. Our politicl leanings get in the way of our senses sometimes.

 

[BroIgnatius]

If you feel that the Pope is speaking directly to you, maybe your defensiveness means that something has hit a little too close to home and needs to be reflected on and prayed about. How else can we grow if the Holy Spirit doesn’t prick our consciences from time to time?

As for criticizing the Pope and pointing out that St. Paul and St. Catherine of Siena corrected their popes- what are you saying? Are you a St. Paul or a Saint Catherine? Really?

No one is being defensive and no conscience has been pricked. That is mere presumption. One can make a criticism out of reason and not emotion, you know.

Making a genuine criticism is not lack of love, lack of fidelity to the Church or to the Pope as Vicar of Christ. At the same time we need to not commit an idolatry about the Pope, as Cardinal Burke talked about.

Are you St. Paul or St. Catherine? Well, actually yes, in a way. We are to follow their example. That is why the Church has given us the Saints. And, I might add, Canon Law gives us the actual right to do so:

Can. 212 §1. Conscious of their own responsibility, the Christian faithful are bound to follow with Christian obedience those things which the sacred pastors, inasmuch as they represent Christ, declare as teachers of the faith or establish as rulers of the Church.

§2. The Christian faithful are free to make known to the pastors of the Church their needs, especially spiritual ones, and their desires.

§3. According to the knowledge, competence, and prestige which they possess, they have the right and even at times the duty to manifest to the sacred pastors their opinion on matters which pertain to the good of the Church and to make their opinion known to the rest of the Christian faithful, without prejudice to the integrity of faith and morals, with reverence toward their pastors, and attentive to common advantage and the dignity of persons.

I have a brilliant idea! Why don’t we debate the issues instead of judging, accusing others, and presuming upon emotional states (a rash judgement) of others in the room and posting all kinds of subtexts. Debate the topic, not the person. If you disagree with someone then make your argument and back it up. I think that is a wonderful idea. Don’t you?

 

[shockerfan]

No one is suggesting the Pope is sinless.

But neither Vatican I nor any other council imposed limits on the Pope’s supremacy or infallibilty. It is ancient tradition, thoroughly cited in the canons of Vatican I, that the Pope has never erred.

This makes life very simple for Catholics: All we need to do is obey the Pope. We don’t have to worry whether he is right or wrong. Jesus has entrusted the successors of Peter with feeding his sheep, and all we, as simple sheep, need to do is follow our pastor, the Bishop of Rome.

But like the parable of the tares, an enemy has sown lies among Catholics, teaching that they can freely ignore the Pope unless he is teaching ex cathedra. Which has led to the internet today becoming a cesspool of schismatic self-appointed teachers who think they know the faith better than the Vicar of Jesus Christ.

One need only look at the Arians, Nestorians, monophysites, iconoclasts, schismatic easterners, protestants, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Unitarians, Muslims and atheists to see the fruit of not following the Pope.

So did I state anything in error?

Here is good article on the subject of the different levels of magisterial teaching and the level of submission due to each one. Its a good summary from a number of Church documents

catholicism.org/the-three-levels-of-magisterial-teaching.html

I certainly agree that the pope does not have to issue an “ex cathedra” statement to have an infallible pronouncement. I think you’ll like the article.

There are limits to his infallibility…example: The pope is not infallible on matters of science.