Pope says he's saddened by 'perfect' Catholics who despise others

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Joe_5859 said:
The key difference between them and us is that they brought their criticism directly to the pope. They weren’t complaining about him to others.
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For the upteenth time, the Church says that we can talk about such things to each other. Canon Law specifically says so.
 
James248 said:
Funny how you mention Cardinals Burke and Miller. They’re taking heat on this very forum.
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That’s why I mention them specifically. One might be inclined to think they have a legitimate reason to air a grievance against the pope. But do you see them grumbling about Pope Francis to anyone who will listen? No, that’s not how they behave.
 
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BroIgnatius said:
For the upteenth time, the Church says that we can talk about such things to each other. Canon Law specifically says so.
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Yes, let’s look at Canon 212. It says Catholics can “make their opinion known to the rest of the Christian faithful”. I’m not disputing that. But notice all the qualifiers before and after. It’s " According to the knowledge, competence, and prestige which they possess". Many complaints come from the knowledge gleaned from partisan news stories. It also states first that we manifest those opinions to our pastor, not behind his back. And then, after this, we must not fail to forget to voice our opinions “without prejudice to the integrity of faith and morals, with reverence toward their pastors, and attentive to common advantage and the dignity of persons.”

Are we being reverent with our criticism? Are we being attentive to the common advantage? Does complaining on an internet message board advance the cause we are seeking to advance through our complaints?

Yes, there are circumstances and ways we can air our questions and concerns and even complaints. But that doesn’t mean anything goes.

Again, look at the topic of this thread. It is a story about Pope Francis saying it is sad when Catholics think they are “perfect” and use that as an occasion to look with scorn at others. There’s nothing untrue about what he is saying. There are (and always will be) people who say “Thank God I am not like these other sinners” when they should be beating their breast and saying “Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner.” And that is sad. And, truthfully, I think every single one of us is guilty of that to some degree and some point in our life. Or maybe it’s just me.

So why—here of all places—do we need to start a conversation advancing the narrative that Pope Francis doesn’t like traditional Catholics? To what end? What “common advantage” is served? The fruit is bickering and stressful feelings.
 
James248 said:
What’s the dinference?
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As stated before, Catherine of Siena went directly to the Pope, and it was merely to convince him to return the papacy to Rome.

Those complaining are doing so not to the Pope, but about the Pope in this forum.

Frankly, they’re missing the message because what he said struck a raw nerve with them and they set up a mental block which prevents them from hearing what he is saying.

Let those who can hear, hear, those who can see, see.

Jim
 
jeannetherese said:
I don’t think the Pope was quite that categorically explicit in his discussion.
Excomunication has been used in the past to aid Catholics in their struggle to become holy.
I’ve personally benefited from having a priest at a Christmas vigil Mass tell those assisting that they should refrain from approaching for communion if they had: he gave a list of thinks we should consider and one of the items on the list was failing to assist at Holy Mass regularly. He advised those of us who needed to address any of these issues to come to confession and then to return to communion.
I’d played hooky from Mass in my early adult years and his directive led me to confession. I’m still not perfect, but, thanks to Father, I have a bit more guidance and direction as I continue to be a work in progress. 🙂
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The point is that excommunication as the petition demanded, was not for lay people to demand, but the person’s own Bishop, which none had done.

At that time, Cardinal Dolan was head of the USCCB and he refused to deny Holy Communion in order to get Catholics in line.

He said( I’m paraphrasing here) the Sacrament was never intended by Jesus nor the Apostles to get people in line with the Church, but to bring them closer to Christ.

Also, I disagree with what your priest did. He shut people off from Christ, who were probably in most need of Him.

Jim
 
JimR-OCDS said:
As stated before, Catherine of Siena went directly to the Pope, and it was merely to convince him to return the papacy to Rome.

Those complaining are doing so not to the Pope, but about the Pope in this forum.

Frankly, they’re missing the message because what he said struck a raw nerve with them and they set up a mental block which prevents them from hearing what he is saying.

Let those who can hear, hear, those who can see, see.

Jim
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With respect, I don’t quite see it that way.

First, you’re assuming that people are ‘complaining’. I’ve been on here and I’m not complaining about the Pope at all.

Second, you’re assuming they are 'missing the message because he struck a raw nerve mental block etc." You’re judging them because you assume that what is said is ‘complaining against’ the Pope; you’re assuming that the only possible reason they could ‘complain’ is as a reaction to being ‘judged’ themselves. These are not at all the only reasons for people to comment, and again, ‘comment’ does not translate to complaint.

If anything, the knee jerk reaction from a lot of people appears to be more of a “You are not saying that you understand the Pope. Therefore, you disagree. Therefore you are complaining. Therefore, you are wrong. Therefore, we will chastise you because obviously the reason you are complaining is that you are not just mistaken but are actively guilty yourselves and you need to shut up and do penance for your active wrongdoing’”.

Note I say ‘appears to be’ and ‘a lot’ not, "IS’ and “Everybody”.

Note also that I am perfectly open to hearing from people why this appearance could be mistaken for them especially and for others.

BUT I think there should be reciprocity, don’t you? I think that instead of labeling people as dissents and wrongheaded rigid hypocrites based on them not dissenting at all from teaching, but simply asking exactly what a given rather ambiguous and undefined term might mean, we should assume that they are acting from motives of wanting to be faithful Catholics. . .
 
JimR-OCDS said:
The point is that excommunication as the petition demanded, was not for lay people to demand, but the person’s own Bishop, which none had done.

At that time, Cardinal Dolan was head of the USCCB and he refused to deny Holy Communion in order to get Catholics in line.

He said( I’m paraphrasing here) the Sacrament was never intended by Jesus nor the Apostles to get people in line with the Church, but to bring them closer to Christ.

Also, I disagree with what your priest did. He shut people off from Christ, who were probably in most need of Him.

Jim
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:eek: You mean charitably mentioning that if you are in a state of mortal sin you should not receive the Eucharist? Isn’t that the Church’s teaching? You don’t believe a priest should inform people of the Church’s teachings?
 
Tantum ergo;
With respect, I don’t quite see it that way.
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Is this suppose to be a backhand compliment ? :rolleyes:
First, you’re assuming that people are ‘complaining’. I’ve been on here and I’m not complaining about the Pope at all.
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Not assuming, but reading what they’ve posted. They are complaining about the Pope from early on in this thread.
Second, you’re assuming they are 'missing the message because he struck a raw nerve mental block etc."
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Again, from their own words, they reveal they’re missing what’s in the Pope’s message.
You’re judging them because you assume that what is said is ‘complaining against’ the Pope; you’re assuming that the only possible reason they could ‘complain’ is as a reaction to being ‘judged’ themselves. These are not at all the only reasons for people to comment, and again, ‘comment’ does not translate to complaint.
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Again, merely reading what they posted. It reveals much about their attitude toward the Pope, and one poster even went so far as to post statements he made back when he was Bishop in Argentina.

Anyway, this thread has taken on the beating of a dead horse in character.

No need to say more.

Jim
 
10gr8kids said:
:eek: You mean charitably mentioning that if you are in a state of mortal sin you should not receive the Eucharist? Isn’t that the Church’s teaching? You don’t believe a priest should inform people of the Church’s teachings?
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The Mass is not the place for this.

Christ didn’t give us the Eucharist to send guilt into people’s hearts, but the joy of salvation.

Jim
 
JimR-OCDS said:
The Mass is not the place for this.

Christ didn’t give us the Eucharist to send guilt into people’s hearts, but the joy of salvation.

Jim
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I assume when you say “the Mass” you are specifically referring to the communion line and not the homily?
 
JimR-OCDS said:
Also, I disagree with what your priest did. He shut people off from Christ, who were probably in most need of Him.

Jim
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I was one of those people. I was not shut of from Christ by my priest; what my priest did brought me closer to Him. Assisting at Mass brings one closer to Christ; it does not shut one off from Christ.

Perhaps, I was not as clear as I might have been. I was not told to leave Mass, merely to abstain from Communion until I had made my confession.
The graces of assisting and opportunity for making a spiritual communion were still available.
 
I don’t think uncharitable remarks ought to be made about anybody - it comes under the second commandment.
 
…this includes uncharitable remarks made about members of the laity, who are also partakers of the royal priesthood, and too, those in Heaven, to whom it is right to offer sincere and loving devotion.
 
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