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Herbert_West
Guest
Well said…
Selling things designed to kill people for money… yeah, there’s nothing wrong with that.
Pope says weapons manufacturers can't call themselves Christian
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Selling things designed to kill people for money… yeah, there’s nothing wrong with that.
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Brendan
Guest
Then why does the Pope buy them? As noted in this thread, the Swiss Guard carry weapons. The Vatican has a very well stocked armory, including assault rifles and sniper rifles.Well said…
Selling things designed to kill people for money… yeah, there’s nothing wrong with that.
Every single one purchased from an arms manufacturer.
Thus one can legitimately say that the ‘very defense’ of the Holy Father REQUIRES the purchase of arms
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Brendan
Guest
Hmnmm, one of the other comments from the Pope indicated that he felt that the Allies in WW-II didn’t use their bombers enough, and didn’t make enough things explode.
So the Pope himself found uses for bombers, why not you?
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Herbert_West
Guest
I never understood why the Vatican has that type of security either. What does it matter to a Catholic if he lives or dies, much less the Pope? Isn’t the reward of being a true Catholic a chance to hang with God for eternity in bliss?
The focus on this life to me by believers reveals a lack of commitment on their part.
So why aren’t all Catholics committed to non-violence? Why is Ghandi a greater example of Christianity than many Catholics?
The focus on this life to me by believers reveals a lack of commitment on their part.
So why aren’t all Catholics committed to non-violence? Why is Ghandi a greater example of Christianity than many Catholics?
LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
…then it is sloppy debating to appear to make the distinction that you now say you were not making.
I think I have been having an especially easy time of it.
As I said before, what remarks? And are you referring to misquotings on weapons manufacturing? Or misquotings in general? Remember, Jesus was misquoted too. A popular misconception about the Eucharist by the Romans was that Jesus advocated cannibalism.
LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
Is this a serious remark? Or just tongue-in-cheek? There is absolutely no doubt that one of the highest Catholic ideals is the preservation of and dignity of life. Of course it is right and proper to protect and defend it.
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LongingSoul
Guest
I know. Very strange. They want him to speak politics rather than to challenge the morality of our money hungry attitudes and all the destruction they cause to others.
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LongingSoul
Guest
His words are not that hard to understand. He’s been consistent about his challenging agenda from the start and its clear that he is not going to let virulent capitalism fly under the global radar anymore.
A year ago he was saying the same things about arms manufacturers calling them ‘merchants of death’. That’s exactly what they are whether they like it or not. They make things designed to kill.
*The Pope told the crowds gathered in St Peter’s Square that people producing weapons of war are “merchants of death”.
“One day everything comes to an end and they will be held accountable to God,” he said.*
catholicherald.co.uk/news/2014/06/11/pope-francis-arms-manufacturers-are-merchants-of-death/
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LongingSoul
Guest
Why don’t you think that he is challenging everyones attitude including the Vatican machine? He’s done that before numerous times because of the ingrained attitudes of Vatican insiders who’ve been hard to topple. What’s wrong with wanting a world that doesn’t have to resort to weapons for defense rather than accepting that we all need to be armed to live a normal life?Then why does the Pope buy them? As noted in this thread, the Swiss Guard carry weapons. The Vatican has a very well stocked armory, including assault rifles and sniper rifles.
Every single one purchased from an arms manufacturer.
Thus one can legitimately say that the ‘very defense’ of the Holy Father REQUIRES the purchase of arms
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Herbert_West
Guest
A little tongue in cheek true, but I am making a point here. How can you defend life by killing others?
Isn’t the best way to defend a life to sacrifice your own rather than killing the threat?
It would be better that these merchants of death commit their lives to being human shields but we know saving lives is not their intent. Their intent is to make money.
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Brendan
Guest
Life DOES matter, in fact, it is contrary to Catholic teaching to claim that it does not. And this the right, even the obligation to defend one’s life against unjust aggression. That right applies to individuals, such as the Pope, and indeed every person, communities, and whole nations.
That could only be true if one accepts the false premise that this life has no purpose. Catholics reject that premise.
Ghandi believed that violence should not be used to solve problems, but that does not mean that he did not believe in the concept of self defence. His teaching was a Hindu concept known as “Ahmisa”, which means to avoid harm, but that was not the same thing as not harming others, if necessary
Which is why he wrote in his autobiography in regards to the Indian Arms Act of 1878
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Brendan
Guest
How does that end the threat? Look at the 1943 Warsaw uprising for example, that was a valid attempt the end the threat by the Nazi’s to Jewish life. How would boarding the cattle cars to Auschwitz have ended the threat to Jewish life?
Or having a police officer take a bullet to the chest from a gangster, how would that prevent the gangster from killing others?
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Brendan
Guest
He has no need to ‘challenge’ the Swiss Guard, he is their direct commander. One simple statement from him and the Swiss Guard can be disbanded, or disarmed, and their weapons melted down.
He has not done this, do you consider his words to be hypocritical then?
Not in this regard then, he still maintains a Vatican armory, filled with assault rifles and other military gear.
All of which we purchased with Vatican funds.
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Bubba_Switzler
Guest
As I noted previously, not only is the Swiss Guard a real armed force but they have fought and died to protect the pope.
If you think Ghandi is a greater example of Christianity then you don’t understand Christianity.
(Ghandi, by the way, was educated in Britain and knew Christian values which is part of why he was able to play the British so well.)
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Bubba_Switzler
Guest
I do apologize for not being more careful about that. I have directed my comments at what the pope is alleged to have said without regard for whether he actually said it or meant it. But I have also come to believe that the media is more accurate than not in its reporting on this and similar off-the-cuff remarks so I am not denying that by criticizing the pope’s alleged remarks I may well be criticizing the pope.
No, not on weapons. One example that springs to mind was his “who am I to judge?” resonse to homosexuality. Another example was implying that Catholics ought not breed like rabbits. Another suggested that wasting food causes starvation. I’m sure you can find more if you google “Pope Francis controversial remarks”.
LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
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Bubba_Switzler
Guest
And, yet, those who have tried here to defend his remarks have offered a dizzying selection of interpretations and rationalizations.
If “merchant of death” meant, literally, one who makes killing implements then I doubt there woudl be much controversy. Obviously, the remarks imply something sinister about it, as if those who manufacture arms do so in disregard of innocent life, which is altogether another thing.
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Bubba_Switzler
Guest
If the pope is advocating pacifism he could disband the Swiss Guard in an instant to set an example.
It’s good to want a world in which we don’t have to resort to arms. It’s bad to pretend that we live in such a world.
LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
It only appears dizzying to those who are already standing on their heads.
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Herbert_West
Guest
@ Leaf - I have read it and posted it earlier in this thread. I am raising the idea that Catholics are failing to lead the world in pacifist non-violent means to end conflict.
It makes me doubt the sincerity of the divine inspiration that would lead somebody to write the Just War Doctrine given the other alternative - peaceful resistance.
Look to the Religious Society of Friends Peace Testimony.
It makes me doubt the sincerity of the divine inspiration that would lead somebody to write the Just War Doctrine given the other alternative - peaceful resistance.
Look to the Religious Society of Friends Peace Testimony.
That to me seems inspired by a sincere form of faith. It would be really impressive if the Pope wrote an encyclical denouncing the Just War Doctrine for this one.
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