Pope suggests Trump: not Christian

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chero23 said:
I would be careful with trump. Several years ago he was pro choice. Can people change, no doubt, but he seems to change back and forth in this election cycle.

I stated this earlier, the pope has a better track record, I’m with this pope on this issue 100%.
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I think we need to be careful with all the candidates. Cruz and Rubio flip flop around and also seem to have tendency to change positions. A few debates ago Kasich was rude, talking over people cutting people off, was going to punch Putin in the nose. Now he is this mild mannered guy of seeming reason with a much more moderate tone and wanting to be the adult in the room. Cruz talks about insulting people but some how manages possibly less evasively and maybe subversively abrasively say the same thing, and Rubio, Cruz and Bush have had some nasty political adds. Who are these guys? What are we really suppose to believe about them? What façade is real and which one is for the cameras. Trump may be the most abrasive, but please do not single him out on the “Must watch” list.
 
Path_Finder said:
If one somehow knocks the statement of a Wall, let’s go the Citizenship to the Vatican route, I realize that it is not a large plot of land; but it is extremely difficult to get Citizenship to the Vatican, I don’t even know if residency status is easy to get.

vatican.va/news_services/press/documentazione/documents/sp_ss_scv/informazione_generale/cittadini-vaticani_en.html
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Really? You are going to go there? You are talking about a plot of land that is smaller than Disney World in Florida.
 
Trump has totally flip-flopped on abortion, partial birth abortion and so on, there is not much room for debate on this.

However, at the same time, I’ve defended Trump on other issues.

Now an interview has come out, maybe it is Howard Stern where indeed, Trump did initially support the Iraq war.
 
Path_Finder said:
Trump has totally flip-flopped on abortion, partial birth abortion and so on, there is not much room for debate on this.

However, at the same time, I’ve defended Trump on other issues.

Now an interview has come out, maybe it is Howard Stern where indeed, Trump did initially support the Iraq war.
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According to the Trump campaign, he supported the military operation once the war began; however, he did not support the initial entry into Iraq. Both sides are making an effort to parse his exact words in their context.
 
JW55 said:
I have read several of your comments and you indicate that we do have a right at times to disagree with what the Pope says (not ex cathedra). Some of your narrative implies that we do not. However, I also ascertain that from some of your responses you may think we don’t have the right to apply our disagreement to the topic of this tread. I think this attachment gives a nice explaination of “ex cathedra”. Paragraphs 6 and 7 I think are an interesting example.

catholicexchange.com/when-does-the-pope-speak-infallibly
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I am not saying, nor have I implied, that one can never disagree with the Pope. We are talking about one specific issue–the issue of the building a wall on the USA border. The Pope did not say it was immoral to build the wall–to paraphrase, this is what he said:

If one thinks ONLY about building walls, and does not think about building bridges, that is a person who is not behaving as a Christian.

In other words, if we build walls while ignoring the pain of those we are locking out, then we are not acting as Christians.

My further view is that Catholics should always lean toward taking the moral opinion of the Pope over a businessman who is not even formed in the Catholic faith.

People can post whatever they want–I just am tired of all the negativity and lousy comments tossed at the Vicar of Christ. If it were Peter, would they say the same things?

Simple common respect.
 
irishpatrick said:
I am not saying, nor have I implied, that one can never disagree with the Pope. We are talking about one specific issue–the issue of the building a wall on the USA border. The Pope did not say it was immoral to build the wall–to paraphrase, this is what he said:

If one thinks ONLY about building walls, and does not think about building bridges, that is a person who is not behaving as a Christian.

In other words, if we build walls while ignoring the pain of those we are locking out, then we are not acting as Christians.

My further view is that Catholics should always lean toward taking the moral opinion of the Pope over a businessman who is not even formed in the Catholic faith.

People can post whatever they want–I just am tired of all the negativity and lousy comments tossed at the Vicar of Christ. If it were Peter, would they say the same things?

Simple common respect.
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I have not seen the Pope disrespected one bit in this thread, I think it is totally false to say he has. That is strictly against forum rules and anyone doing so would be promptly notified of such.

If anyone has been unfairly negatively spoken about it is Donald Trump. Those posts are numerous here.

I read some post accusing Trump as being a celebrity and that is his appeal. There are a number of negative posts here.
 
Path_Finder said:
But I thought I read, one calling Vice President Biden a good or great man.

Now where is the consistency?

Pope Francis said abortion is murder.

So, are we saying Vice President Biden is a good or great man because he promotes murder??

Perhaps all of us deserve scrutiny as well.
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I do believe he’s a good guy. but if he ever attacked the pope, mu opinion about him would change.

Some people here have taken the opposite stance with trump and the pope.
 
Path_Finder said:
I have not seen the Pope disrespected one bit in this thread, I think it is totally false to say he has. That is strictly against forum rules and anyone doing so would be promptly notified of such.

If anyone has been unfairly negatively spoken about it is Donald Trump. Those posts are numerous here.

I read some post accusing Trump as being a celebrity and that is his appeal. There are a number of negative posts here.
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How about your posts in particular about the Vatican and it’s wall. With all due respect, those are not accurate statements. This is not for you and I to go off on a rampage, but statements like those make the church look bad. We don’t need that against the church.
 
Path_Finder said:
Trump has totally flip-flopped on abortion, partial birth abortion and so on, there is not much room for debate on this.

However, at the same time, I’ve defended Trump on other issues.

Now an interview has come out, maybe it is Howard Stern where indeed, Trump did initially support the Iraq war.
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So I ask you again, you rather defend or support trump than the pope, when you yourself stated that trump has flipped flopped on issues?

The pope in my book, has been consistent and he leads us down the correct path by doing so humbly. I don’t know about trump.
 
chero23 said:
I do believe he’s a good guy. but if he ever attacked the pope, mu opinion about him would change.

Some people here have taken the opposite stance with trump and the pope.
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Pope Francis just called abortion murder. Joe Biden promotes the abortion agenda so do Obama and Clinton. I think that is much worse.

Trump merely called the Pope’s remark’s disgraceful: businessinsider.com/donald-trump-pope-francis-wall-christian-2016-2

I’d rather someone call my remarks disgraceful rather than murder me. But that’s just me.
 
chero23 said:
So I ask you again, you rather defend or support trump than the pope, when you yourself stated that trump has flipped flopped on issues?

The pope in my book, has been consistent and he leads us down the correct path by doing so humbly. I don’t know about trump.
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The Pope takes care of His Flock, Trump if elected takes care of his flock.

Trump is an American, the Pope is from Argentina and Italy.

It is not Catholic Teaching that we must agree with every single thing the Pope says.

It is Catholic Teaching that we do not watch someone being beaten and try to stop it.

Biden acknowledged is being called a “good man”, yet, Biden has actively promoted abortion. The Pope calls abortion, murder, taking of another life. I don’t see how one can be a good man if they promote murder.
 
irishpatrick said:
I am not saying, nor have I implied, that one can never disagree with the Pope. We are talking about one specific issue–the issue of the building a wall on the USA border. The Pope did not say it was immoral to build the wall–to paraphrase, this is what he said:

If one thinks ONLY about building walls, and does not think about building bridges, that is a person who is not behaving as a Christian.

In other words, if we build walls while ignoring the pain of those we are locking out, then we are not acting as Christians.

My further view is that Catholics should always lean toward taking the moral opinion of the Pope over a businessman who is not even formed in the Catholic faith.

People can post whatever they want–I just am tired of all the negativity and lousy comments tossed at the Vicar of Christ. If it were Peter, would they say the same things?

Simple common respect.
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It is not wrong to protect our borders. It is a measure to control entry, not prevent it. Legal entry is acceptable and the wall is not there to prevent that. However, just letting anyone across the border does not protect the residents of this country, and we need to use discretion. One would think a wall would mean no one will ever be abe to enter again. Our present methods have failed us and uncontrolled illegal immigration has run rampant and we have no idea in many cases who is in this country. How do you feel about the wall in Israel?
 
chero23 said:
How about your posts in particular about the Vatican and it’s wall. With all due respect, those are not accurate statements. This is not for you and I to go off on a rampage, but statements like those make the church look bad. We don’t need that against the church.
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One will find dozens and dozens of articles on the Vatican Wall that was in the press in just the last 2 days.

We can not now be saying something that is in Current News is somehow out of bounds.

The anomaly may not be correct; but it is in the news and part of this story as well.

cnn.com/2016/02/18/world/vatican-walls/

nytimes.com/2016/02/20/world/europe/in-defense-of-trump-some-point-wrongly-to-vatican-walls.html?recp=18

uk.reuters.com/video/2016/02/19/vatican-walls-loom-over-pope-vs-trump-co?videoId=367459359

businessinsider.com/donald-trump-pope-border-wall-2016-2

theblaze.com/stories/2016/02/18/trump-knocks-the-pope-once-again-hes-got-an-awfully-big-wall-at-the-vatican/
 
Path_Finder said:
Biden acknowledged is being called a “good man”, yet, Biden has actively promoted abortion…
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Not true. Biden accepts the Church’s teaching and does not actively promote abortion. He just declines to use the power of the government to prohibit it. That is not the same thing as “actively promoting” abortion.
 
LeafByNiggle said:
Not true. Biden accepts the Church’s teaching and does not actively promote abortion. He just declines to use the power of the government to prohibit it. That is not the same thing as “actively promoting” abortion.
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False, Senator Joseph Biden was instrumental in denying the nomination of Robert Bork for starters during the Reagan administration. I will look up and see if Joseph Biden has actively voted for abortion bills such as for partial birth abortion and quotes as well as to this debate point. Information will be added on. In fact, just being a Democrat is being part of a party that has abortion on demand in its platform.
 
It’s preposterous to say Vice President Biden does not actively support abortion, even he makes a differentiation as to his “personal life”.
With regard to abortion, I accept my church’s position that life begins at conception. That’s the church’s judgment. I accept it in my personal life.** But I refuse to impose it on equally devout Christians and Muslims and Jews and–I just refuse to impose that on others, unlike my friend here, the congressman. I do not believe that we have a right to tell other people that women can’t control their body. It’s a decision between them and their doctor, in my view. And the Supreme Court–I’m not going to interfere with that.**

I accept church rule personally, but not in public life
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So in his public life, Biden is very much a pro-choicer, promoter of abortion.
BIDEN: The next president will get one or two Supreme Court nominees. That’s how close Roe v. Wade is. Just ask yourself: With Robert Bork being the chief adviser on the court for Mr. Romney, who do you think he’s likely to appoint?** Do you think he’s likely to appoint someone far right, that would outlaw abortion? **I suspect that would happen. I guarantee you that will not happen [with Obama]. We picked people who are open-minded. They’ve been good justices.
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Biden fights for abortion in his public life.
**
Voted NO on defining unborn child as eligible for SCHIP. **
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**Voted NO on prohibiting minors crossing state lines for abortion. **
**
Voted YES on expanding research to more embryonic stem cell lines. **
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Rated 0% by the NRLC, indicating a pro-choice stance.
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It looks like he voted for a ban on Partial Birth Abortions but criticized the SCOTUS for upholding the ban.
Joe Biden the Flip-Flopper: From “Pro-Life” to Pro-Abortion
lifenews.com/2012/10/10/joe-biden-the-flip-flopper-from-pro-life-to-pro-abortion/
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