Pope suggests Trump: not Christian

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zerocrossing said:
I was not discussing Trump. I was responding to a comment about the wall around the Vatican that appeared to suggest that the pope is being a hypocrite. This is why I suggested looking at the full context.
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Still no idea what pilgrims have to do with any of this. What is the full context?
 
Ridgerunner said:
We should care about it because it confuses not only non-Catholics about the Church, but Catholics as well.
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It confuses those who listen to and believe an American businessman over the Holy Father. Francis should hardly cater to such thinking. So long as he continues to speak the truth of the Catholic faith, he’s doing as he’s meant to do.
 
Ridgerunner said:
The Pope said he would give Trump the benefit of the doubt. He also said IF Trump said what the reporter MISSTATED about Trump, then the Pope wouldn’t consider Trump a Christian. The Pope was set up by a political operative, but responded in a nuanced way. And the Pope did not do what the political operative wanted him to do, say that Catholics shouldn’t vote for Trump. The Pope avoided the real objective altogether, and rightly so.

Unfortunately, those who hate Trump will misstate or misconstrue what the Pope said, just as the reporter misstated what Trump said. And a lot of people will be deceived as well.

And those who hate the Catholic Church will want to stir up as much anti-Catholicism as possible with this by further misleading Americans, who are mostly not Catholic and don’t understand the Church very well.

Personally, I don’t blame the Pope in this, and I don’t even blame Trump. I blame those who try to manipulate the Pope for political gain. One needs to keep in mind that this could turn a lot of Americans against the Catholic candidates; probably more than those whom it will turn against Trump.

And no, I’m not a Trump supporter. If I could elect the president myself, it would be Kasich. Failing that, it would be Rubio. But my original favorite was Christie. He’s out of the race now, and more’s the pity.

Remember too that all of the Catholic candidates would increase border security. Undoubtedly we’ll hear more about that. Trump wasn’t the only target of this.
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Agree! It is very obvious that The Pope was misquoted or misunderstood, I understand what he was saying, if the ones who are trying to twist this whole thing and make it political would also understand that, if they read exactly what he said. One of the problems is that Non Catholics and people who are Anti Pope will not bother to read what he actually said. Saying that Trump knows exactly what The Pope said is just as untruthful , no one knows that. He may very possibly have taken someone elses words for what he said, I am not saying he was right if that is what he did just that he could have. Either way this whole issue is now just being blown all out or proportion. People who love the Pope will still love him the people who don’t will still not. The people who love Trump and vote for him still will love him and vote for him.
 
LeafByNiggle said:
It addresses it quite directly. You said:

You said it was not luck that made America great, and I said it was luck and grace. You said it was due to our American system of government, and if anyone else wants the benefits of such a system, they should get one too. I claim that the American system of government was a necessary condition, but not a sufficient condition. If we did not also have the very good fortune to find ourselves in possession of a large, well isolated, resource-rich land, strategically placed, and inhabited by technologically inferior native tribes that we could dominate, our system of government alone would not have lead to the prosperity that others envy. How much more directly relevant to your posting can I get?
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Well, if it is all luck and up to God, then obviously it wouldn’t really matter what we do.

But you go on to say that it is not all luck, and that the system is a necessary condition.
That is not refuting my point since that is my point.

I was a little thrown by your response bringing the grace of God into the argument, since nowhere did I consider that God is not sovereign.

Luck itself follows the laws of probability, which are evenly distributed among people. People make their own luck by recognizing the kinds of opportunities that the environment presents. An example might be Oregon and Pakistan, which share similar climates, but little else. Mexico operates from a huge resource base, and I certainly would not for one consider the fact that this was once the site of a successful pre-Columbian empire particularly unlucky for them.

Individuals may be unlucky because of the way that outliers work, but when it comes to populations, the laws of probability take over, and the odds even everything out. A Mexican has as much chance of winning at roulette as anyone else who plays it.

As for the Providence of God, well maybe God does play favorites. That is not anything we can control though, and a good working relationship with God usually is based on the idea that Mexicans are God’s people every bit as much as Americans might be. That is a charitable attitude, I think.

It is a pragmatically useless assumption, and maybe a little bit offensive to think that God is playing favortism to Americans vis-a-vis Mexicans, and that is the reason that Mexicans are relatively worse off economically.

So, the one thing that we can control for is the system. Unless you want to maintain that Americans are luckier than Mexicans or more on God’s side, since we both agree that the system is a necessary condition, then my opinion as to solution stands as a sound one.
Americans can help the most by advocating their system.
 
gracepoole said:
It confuses those who listen to and believe an American businessman over the Holy Father. Francis should hardly cater to such thinking. So long as he continues to speak the truth of the Catholic faith, he’s doing as he’s meant to do.
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It’s not a matter of that for most people. It’s listening to and believing the leftist media’s misrepresentations over the Pope. And a lot of people do. The Pope didn’t say Trump is not a Christian, but he was widely reported as having said it.
 
gracepoole said:
It confuses those who listen to and believe an American businessman over the Holy Father. Francis should hardly cater to such thinking. So long as he continues to speak the truth of the Catholic faith, he’s doing as he’s meant to do.
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It confuses people who wonder why the Pope is siding with business and political elites in advocating for open US borders. Why does the Pope want to drive down the wages of middle and working class Americans?
 
ucfengr said:
It confuses people who wonder why the Pope is siding with business and political elites in advocating for open US borders. Why does the Pope want to drive down the wages of middle and working class Americans?
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I’m not saying I agree with this, but according to Laura Ingraham, a Catholic, it is a “money play” for the Church leadership, who receives “tens of millions” from the US Government to assist in resettlement of low skilled immigrants.

She argues that it is a moneymaking operation, and thus in the interest of the Church leadership to keep the flow of immigrants into the United States. She argued this in her show yesterday with Donald Trump.
 
Ridgerunner said:
It’s not a matter of that for most people. It’s listening to and believing the leftist media’s misrepresentations over the Pope. And a lot of people do. The Pope didn’t say Trump is not a Christian, but he was widely reported as having said it.
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“A lot of people” accept a lot of ignorance. Are we really going to claim now that the Holy Father should cater to the willfully ignorant when teaching?

And I’d be hesitant to call this a matter of leftist spin, when the headlines shared earlier in the thread (all of which distort the Pope’s remarks) all come from right-leaning publications.
 
ucfengr said:
It confuses people who wonder why the Pope is siding with business and political elites in advocating for open US borders. Why does the Pope want to drive down the wages of middle and working class Americans?
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Didn’t you hear? Limbaugh already explained that the Pope wants to crush capitalism in the US and recreate it as a socialist nation. What other possible explanation can there be?
 
Theo520 said:
My relatives were all legal immigrants. What do you have against the rule of law?

Sending illegals back to their home is not treating them as sub-human.
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The latter depends on what their home is like: that is, whether there is ethnic, religious or class discrimination, persecution and warfare waged by brutal dictators or warlords; economic upheaval and dire poverty accompanied by violence and murder in the streets; and so on.
 
Round_Hill said:
I’m not saying I agree with this, but according to Laura Ingraham, a Catholic, it is a “money play” for the Church leadership, who receives “tens of millions” from the US Government to assist in resettlement of low skilled immigrants.

She argues that it is a moneymaking operation, and thus in the interest of the Church leadership to keep the flow of immigrants into the United States. She argued this in her show yesterday with Donald Trump.
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That’s disgusting.
 
gracepoole said:
It confuses those who listen to and believe an American businessman over the Holy Father. Francis should hardly cater to such thinking. So long as he continues to speak the truth of the Catholic faith, he’s doing as he’s meant to do.
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**
Papal Infallibility**
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Some ask how popes can be infallible if some of them lived scandalously.
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NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials
presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors.
Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004
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IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827
permission to publish this work is hereby granted.
+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004
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catholic.com/tracts/papal-infallibility
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All humans share in the fallen nature of man.
 
JimR-OCDS said:
The Pope wasn’t talking about brick and mortar walls, but ideological walls.

Jim
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He knows Trump wants to build a PHYSICAL wall. So I’m not buying the idea some commentators are floating - that it was just metaphorical - and that it ‘just happens’ by accident to overlap with a physical reality. The current Pope has a tendency to be extremely vague and to talk in the abstract in order to avoid taking a specific position on an issue.

But in this case he went too far, it is too convenient to be an accidental metaphor that overlaps with reality, and all most people are going to hear is that he’s attacking Trump on the wall issue; and so Trump quite rightly pointed out the Vatican’s own walls and the underlying hypocrisy. If you’re going to attack Trump then be prepared for a counter punch. Hiding behind abstraction in order to snipe from the sidelines isn’t going to work.
 
Path_Finder said:
All humans share in the fallen nature of man.
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You’ve shared this at least three times now. Is your intent to liken Pope Francis to past pontiffs who created scandal and are viewed as scandalous?

Probably best not to answer that. Probably best, though, to stop making the insinuation.
 
Path_Finder said:
She is a Catholic and I admire her following the faith per Catholic values. Saying “that’s disgusting” does not mean it is false or true.
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Are you honestly accepting the claim that the Holy Father and the Church are part of a moneymaking conspiracy that’s driving their interest in immigration reform?
 
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