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stinkcat_14
Guest
Can you give me an an example of a society without markets.
Pope Warns Against New Colonialism: Corporations, Loan Agencies, and Austerity Measures That Hurt Poor
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triumphguy
Guest
A measure of a society’s development is not how technologically advanced they are.
The Indigenous people in North America were very adapt at not only surviving but thriving before Westerners came.
They didn’t lack initiative. They solved their problems differently.
Could you survive in Canada’s prairies during winter with only the tools and technology of the Indians who “lacked initiative”? How about in the High Arctic?
Try that (even in your mind for a few minutes) and then tell me how they lacked ambition, drive or initiative.
Just because peoples are overwhelmed by western technology doesn’t mean it’s better.
Protestants from Northern Europe have always said how lacking in initiative Catholics from Southern Europe are - are they right?
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triumphguy
Guest
BTW in Matthew 25 when Jesus asks those on his left “did you feed me (etc)?” what do you think his response would be if they said, “No, because they lacked initiative”?
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philipl
Guest
But those people have always lived in poverty. The global corporation didnt make them poor. “New colonialism” didnt make them poor. Loan Agencies didnt make them poor. Nor did austerity measures. And for sure Capitalism didnt make them poor. What Capitalism did was the move those countries that used the free market system to bring most of it citizens OUT of poverty. Before the 1900’s about 70% of americans lived in poverty. If South American countries want to get out of poverty, they need to use the free market to do it. Get rid of their corrupt government.
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philipl
Guest
Warren buffet is one of the biggest tax evaders in the country. He owes billions of dollars to the USA government. George Soros owes billions and billions in taxes.
So its how they make their money? Why is one wealth building different from other wealth building? Why is Buffet better than a Koch? Why is the CEO of a car company vilified and yet Warren Buffet is a liberal Hero?
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triumphguy
Guest
Was someone living in a functional society in pre-columbian America, with family and community around them, with culture, dance, music and art poor?
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triumphguy
Guest
I presume you are calling me a liberal.
I have no idea what a liberal is in the US 'cos you guys misunderstand it.
Adam Smith was a liberal.
And there I was trying to find some rich people to justify. And now there’s one less on my list.
Oh well.
Look up Peter Lynch for me. Maybe I’m wrong about him too.
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Thomas_White
Guest
By what measure have “those people” always lived in poverty? This is a convenient rewrite of history to suit a narrative.
In 1970, Jorge Borgoglio, now Pope Francis, began his work as a Jesuit missionary in Buenos Aires. In the long tradition of the Jesuits in South America, his work was among the very poor. The Spanish invaders had for centuries marginalized the indigenous people of Argentina, removing them from their native lands while exploiting both those lands and their peoples, using them to enhance the development of their market economy. The subjugated native people were virtually excluded from participation in the new European-style economy and society. Having been chased from their native lands, large numbers of people in time migrated to the growing urban areas where they live in grinding poverty. These were the circumstances that first brought the Jesuit missionaries to Argentina, and these many centuries later those circumstances still exist as the desperately poor await the trickle down that never arrives.
In his Latin American speech deploring the New Colonialism imposed by corporations, loan agencies and austerity measures, for whom would you imagine Pope Francis, the former Jesuit missionary from Buenos Aires, was speaking?
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philipl
Guest
So what make Lynch’s wealth so much better than a rich person who’s wealth you cant justify?I presume you are calling me a liberal.
I have no idea what a liberal is in the US 'cos you guys misunderstand it.
Adam Smith was a liberal.
And there I was trying to find some rich people to justify. And now there’s one less on my list.
Oh well.
Look up Peter Lynch for me. Maybe I’m wrong about him too.
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Otavio
Guest
As I said in the thread I created about my article*, Pope’s words follow the Church’'s social doctrine. Check those words by Pius Xi and Paul Vi. Latin American sadly still suffer from this.
Pius XI in the Encyclical Quadragesimo Anno
not only is wealth concentrated in our times but an immense power and despotic economic dictatorship is consolidated in the hands of a few,
This concentration of power and might, the characteristic mark, as it were, of contemporary economic life, is the fruit that the unlimited freedom of struggle among competitors has of its own nature produced, and which lets only the strongest survive; and this is often the same as saying, those who fight the most violently, those who give least heed to their conscience.
Pope Paul VI in the Populorom Progressio
In certain regions a privileged minority enjoys the refinements of life, while the rest of the inhabitants, impoverished and disunited, “are deprived of almost all possibility of acting on their own initiative and responsibility, and often subsist in living and working conditions unworthy of the human person.”
Everyone knows that the Fathers of the Church laid down the duty of the rich toward the poor in no uncertain terms. As St. Ambrose put it: “You are not making a gift of what is yours to the poor man, but you are giving him back what is his. You have been appropriating things that are meant to be for the common use of everyone. The earth belongs to everyone, not to the rich.”
If certain landed estates impede the general prosperity because they are extensive, unused or poorly used, or because they bring hardship to peoples or are detrimental to the interests of the country, the common good sometimes demands their expropriation.
The earth belongs to everyone, not to the rich.! Powerful words.
*otaviopinto.com/index.php/2015/07/16/the-pope-and-social-movements-francis-is-not-communist-just-catholic/
Pius XI in the Encyclical Quadragesimo Anno
not only is wealth concentrated in our times but an immense power and despotic economic dictatorship is consolidated in the hands of a few,
This concentration of power and might, the characteristic mark, as it were, of contemporary economic life, is the fruit that the unlimited freedom of struggle among competitors has of its own nature produced, and which lets only the strongest survive; and this is often the same as saying, those who fight the most violently, those who give least heed to their conscience.
Pope Paul VI in the Populorom Progressio
In certain regions a privileged minority enjoys the refinements of life, while the rest of the inhabitants, impoverished and disunited, “are deprived of almost all possibility of acting on their own initiative and responsibility, and often subsist in living and working conditions unworthy of the human person.”
Everyone knows that the Fathers of the Church laid down the duty of the rich toward the poor in no uncertain terms. As St. Ambrose put it: “You are not making a gift of what is yours to the poor man, but you are giving him back what is his. You have been appropriating things that are meant to be for the common use of everyone. The earth belongs to everyone, not to the rich.”
If certain landed estates impede the general prosperity because they are extensive, unused or poorly used, or because they bring hardship to peoples or are detrimental to the interests of the country, the common good sometimes demands their expropriation.
The earth belongs to everyone, not to the rich.! Powerful words.
*otaviopinto.com/index.php/2015/07/16/the-pope-and-social-movements-francis-is-not-communist-just-catholic/
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triumphguy
Guest
That’s a strange question since the answer should be obvious to you. It;s about how you make your wealth and what you do with it.
Here’s part of the answer.
bostonglobe.com/business/2013/11/15/peter-and-carolyn-lynch-have-given-over-million-education-boston/KcLviHKNyWPqVQ6MX0QgNO/story.html#
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styrgwillidar
Guest
Our country is ~18 Trillion in debt, with, depending on your source 90-200 Trillion in unfunded liabilities.
You want to talk greed and worshipping money? You want to talk serious debt, putting things on credit out of worshipping money? Our entire generation is putting the bill on future generations for our ‘generosity’ today.
We’re not even content with the money we have in our generation, that we have and collectively can address. We grasp after money and resources not even created yet to provide our entitlements today. Greece is just that start.
As for the Pope- the folks pushing the Climate Change agenda are promoting austerity measures for the poor and transfer of wealth to corporations as well. I hope this, like so many other things coming out in the media are poorly translated or somewhat out of context.
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triumphguy
Guest
On the other hand some people do this with their money:
dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2612952/Just-popping-shops-F1-boss-Ecclestones-son-law-James-Stunt-goes-art-gallery-Chelsea-Lamborghini-TWO-Rolls-Royces-Range-Rover.html
http://topgir.com.ua/wp-content/upl...17914-1D81E11E00000578-20_964x642-320x213.jpg
Could be worse - it could be going up his nose, or funding terrorism.
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philipl
Guest
What is the paycheck of the folks who built those cars? Are they well paid?
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philipl
Guest
The other side of this coin is if those people have all those things, are they poor?
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ProVobis
Guest
Poor in spirit maybe, whatever that is.
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jediliz
Guest
Warren Buffett gives money to pro abortion groups.
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Peccavi
Guest
The Pope is only preaching traditional Christian and therefore Catholic views on economics. As a Catholic and a socialist I tire of Catholics wedded to Protestant economic thinking. Christian communities need to share wealth as did Jesus and his followers if you read the Gospels. The sharing of loaves and fishes is Jesus teaching us to do likewise. The instruction to help the poor, the needy, the homeless and the less fortunate is not a suggestion but stands at the heart of the Gospels and Jesus teaching of the nature of The Kingdom of God. Pope Francis’ views on economics are Old Catholic views rather than the Capitalist Protestant views of his critics. I, as a Catholic socialist, make no apologies for following this Pope and Christ’s instructions. Remember my comrades it is easier for a camel to get through the eye of a needle than a Rich Capitalist to get into Heaven. Who said that ? Not Marx, but Jesus whom we are as Christians obliged to follow.
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Johann_du_Toit
Guest
Catholicism is not reconcilable with Socialism.
POPE LEO XIII (1878-1903)
Overthrow is Deliberately Planned
“… For, the fear of God and reverence for divine laws being taken away, the authority of rulers despised, sedition permitted and approved, and the popular passions urged on to lawlessness, with no restraint save that of punishment, a change and overthrow of all things will necessarily follow. Yea, this change and overthrow is deliberately planned and put forward by many associations of communists and socialists.”
(Encyclical Humanum Genus, April 20, 1884, n. 27)
POPE PIUS XI (1922-1939)
Socialism Cannot Be Reconciled with Catholic Doctrine
“We make this pronouncement: Whether considered as a doctrine, or an historical fact, or a movement, Socialism, if it remains truly Socialism, even after it has yielded to truth and justice on the points which we have mentioned, cannot be reconciled with the teachings of the Catholic Church because its concept of society itself is utterly foreign to Christian truth.”
(Encyclical Quadragesimo Anno, May 15, 1931, n. 117)
Catholic Socialism is a Contradiction
“[Socialism] is based nevertheless on a theory of human society peculiar to itself and irreconcilable with true Christianity. Religious socialism, Christian socialism, are contradictory terms; no one can be at the same time a good Catholic and a true socialist.” (Ibid. n. 120)
POPE PIUS XII (1939-1958)
The Church Will Fight Socialism to the End
“[The Church undertook] the protection of the individual and the family against a current threatening to bring about a total socialization which in the end would make the specter of the ‘Leviathan’ become a shocking reality. The Church will fight this battle to the end, for it is a question of supreme values: the dignity of man and the salvation of souls." (“Radio message to the Katholikentag of Vienna,” September 14, 1952 in Discorsi e Radiomessaggi, vol. XIV, p. 314)
The All-Powerful State Harms True Prosperity
“To consider the State as something ultimate to which everything else should be subordinated and directed, cannot fail to harm the true and lasting prosperity of nations.” (Encyclical Summi Pontificatus, October 20, 1939, n. 60)
POPE JOHN XXIII (1958-1963)
“No Catholic could subscribe even to moderate socialism”
“Pope Pius XI further emphasized the fundamental opposition between Communism and Christianity, and made it clear that no Catholic could subscribe even to moderate Socialism. The reason is that Socialism is founded on a doctrine of human society which is bounded by time and takes no account of any objective other than that of material well-being. Since, therefore, it proposes a form of social organization which aims solely at production; it places too severe a restraint on human liberty, at the same time flouting the true notion of social authority.” (Encyclical Mater et Magistra, May 15, 1961, n. 34)
POPE PAUL VI (1963-1978)
Christians Tend to Idealize Socialism
“Too often Christians attracted by socialism tend to idealize it in terms which, apart from anything else, are very general: a will for justice, solidarity and equality. They refuse to recognize the limitations of the historical socialist movements, which remain conditioned by the ideologies from which they originated.” (Apostolic Letter Octogesima Adveniens, May 14, 1971, n. 31)
POPE JOHN PAUL II (1978-2005)
Socialism: Danger of a “simple and radical solution”
“It may seem surprising that ‘socialism’ appeared at the beginning of the Pope’s critique of solutions to the ‘question of the working class’ at a time when ‘socialism’ was not yet in the form of a strong and powerful State, with all the resources which that implies, as was later to happen. However, he correctly judged the danger posed to the masses by the attractive presentation of this simple and radical solution to the ‘question of the working class.’" (Encyclical Centesimus Annus - On the 100th anniversary of Pope Leo XIII’s Rerum Novarum, May 1, 1991, n. 12)
POPE BENEDICT XVI (2005 - 2013)
We do not Need a State which Controls Everything
“The State which would provide everything, absorbing everything into itself, would ultimately become a mere bureaucracy incapable of guaranteeing the very thing which the suffering person - every person - needs: namely, loving personal concern. We do not need a State which regulates and controls everything, but a State which, in accordance with the principle of subsidiarity, generously acknowledges and supports initiatives arising from the different social forces and combines spontaneity with closeness to those in need. … In the end, the claim that just social structures would make works of charity superfluous masks a materialist conception of man: the mistaken notion that man can live ‘by bread alone’ (Mt 4:4; cf. Dt 8:3) - a conviction that demeans man and ultimately disregards all that is specifically human.” (Encyclical Deus Caritas Est, December 25, 2005, n. 28)
Pope Francis should be noted was a strong opponent of the Socialist Kirchner regime in Argentina when he was still Archbishop of Buenos Aires, and stated in 2005 that marxsit liberation theology was outmoded.
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philipl
Guest
Its not a rewrite of anything. Its only in recent history that Americans and other Western civilization have developed a real middle class. The plain simple measurable fact is the 1%er are not responsible for poverty in those countries. Their corrupt government is the complete reason.
By what measure have “those people” always lived in poverty? This is a convenient rewrite of history to suit a narrative.
In 1970, Jorge Borgoglio, now Pope Francis, began his work as a Jesuit missionary in Buenos Aires. In the long tradition of the Jesuits in South America, his work was among the very poor. The Spanish invaders had for centuries marginalized the indigenous people of Argentina, removing them from their native lands while exploiting both those lands and their peoples, using them to enhance the development of their market economy. The subjugated native people were virtually excluded from participation in the new European-style economy and society. Having been chased from their native lands, large numbers of people in time migrated to the growing urban areas where they live in grinding poverty. These were the circumstances that first brought the Jesuit missionaries to Argentina, and these many centuries later those circumstances still exist as the desperately poor await the trickle down that never arrives.
In his Latin American speech deploring the New Colonialism imposed by corporations, loan agencies and austerity measures, for whom would you imagine Pope Francis, the former Jesuit missionary from Buenos Aires, was speaking?
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