Pope: We're not in the business of eternal condemnation

[RGCheek]

God is not merciful because of hell. .

No one said he was.

But to show mercy there must be something one is being merciful about, and your response seems to prefer to address points not made by anyone.

Why?

 

[RGCheek]

I totally agree with those who say the Gospel is first of all a message of love and not of fear.We eventually make it to Heaven because of our love of God(and His mercy of course) and not because of our fear of Hell.Some people on this forum make it seem as if the Pope is claiming that Hell or punishment does not exist,because he talks alot about us believing in the Mercy of God.That is not true!He has spoken alot about the Devil before.Lets learn to focus on the core message of the Gospel,which is that of love and mercy, and not that of fear or punishment!

The first recorded Gospel Sermon in Acts chapter 2
"36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”

38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”

This first Gospel message consists of several points:

1. Jesus is Lord and Christ (the promised Messiah)
2. We need to repent from the sin we have committed (thus it must be shown where we have sinned)
3. the baptism must be by the authority of Jesus Christ (not John the Baptist or some guru)
4. the baptism will wash away your sins
5. you will receive the Holy Ghost

Is it really THAT hard to understand?

Peter did not stand there and just talk about Gods love. He mostly talked about how Jesus was the promised Messiah and that He died for our sins.

Is there a greater sin than to distort the Gospel message of Salvation through repentance and baptism? IMO to do so is to plant weeds in the masters wheat field.

 

[robertmidwest]

Matthew 2:27

 

[RGCheek]

Matthew 2:27

There is no Matthew 2:27

 

[robertmidwest]

There is no Matthew 2:27

My bad!

Try Mark 2:27

 

[RGCheek]

My bad!

Try Mark 2:27

Yes, the Sabath was made for us, much as an auto owner’s manual is made for us.

But just because it is there for our benefit doesn’t mean we have to accept the consequences if we pour molasses into our fuel distribution system.

 

[Tsuwano]

Matthew chapter 7
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

24 “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 25 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.

26 “But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.”

28 And so it was, when Jesus had ended these sayings, that the people were astonished at His teaching, 29 for He taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

I seldom trust scripture quotes without context or explanation. It is said the devil himself may quote scripture to prove his case.

 

[Tsuwano]

I didn’t say God was merciful because of hell. I said if there is no hell, then what are we being saved from?!?! And what is God being merciful towards?!?!?

And your opinion about priests avoiding telling the full Catholic truth for 50 years is in conflict with the direct evidence. There’s even video of Cardinal Dolan admitting as much.

Who said there is no hell? I’m sure there is, but I’m not sure that God sends us there. I think we condemn ourselves by simply not choosing to abide in God’s love. We abandon God, he doesn’t abandon us. I do not think my opinion regarding the Church is in conflict with direct evidence. I think the Church has been filled with the Holy Spirit since the Second Vatican Council and that many great things have happened. I’m sure Cardinal Dolan would agree with that.

 

[Tsuwano]

I see the Crux is at it again. Of course the Church has never condemned anyone to hell - not even Judas, and the title of this article, will, (as is its purpose) give “merciful” spin and mislead others without telling the whole story.

How is it that telling people that God is merciful and forgives sins is a spin? If it is a spin, it was a spin set in motion by Jesus.

 

[Tsuwano]

No one said he was.

But to show mercy there must be something one is being merciful about, and your response seems to prefer to address points not made by anyone.

Why?

My reply was to the question “What is God being merciful towards if there is no hell?” Again, God’s mercy has little to do with hell and everything to do with love. I do not deny hell or sin or separation from God or that it is best for the sinner to repent of his sins. I simply agree with the Holy Father that the priority of the Church is to emphasize the love and mercy of God more than his just condemnation and punishment of sin. To give priority to mercy is not to deny our separation from God through sin, rather it is to emphasize the love and grace of God eternally present to us. If that point hasn’t been made by anyone, it has now been made by me.

 

[RGCheek]

I seldom trust scripture quotes without context or explanation. It is said the devil himself may quote scripture to prove his case.

Easy fix; just look up the context and explain why you think it misinterpreted.

The Devil may quote scripture but I have never heard of him quoting chapter and verse.

 

[RGCheek]

My reply was to the question “What is God being merciful towards if there is no hell?” Again, God’s mercy has little to do with hell and everything to do with love.

If you cannot see the logically difficulties with that, I am going to have to just drop this discussion.

 

[sennincatholic]

We eventually make it to heaven because **a.) **With grace we see ourselves as God sees us with our weakness and sin and, b.) because having realized (a.) we are truly **repentant **for having sinned against such Goodness. Sometimes fear is the only impetus in turning away from sin (although that is imperfect contrition.) How dangerous to think (or presume) one only needs to love God to be saved. Hopefully that love will lead to sorrow for our offenses, but make no mistake - without repentance, no mercy will be forthcoming. “Repentance is the door, is the key that unlocks mercy.”

You seem to misunderstand me.How can someone be truely repentant of one’s sins(i mean,truely and sincerely repentant) when he/she doesnt love God?.
Love comes with the whole package of repentance and all.And well,its not dangerous to think(or presume) that one needs to love God to be saved because love by nature is whole and complete.there’s nothing like half-baked love.So someone who sincerely loves God will do everything not to offend God(that includes repentance,avoiding sin,loving others etc).
In the nutshell,love for God should be the true motivation for repentance,not fear of hell and punishment(fake motivation)

 

[LongingSoul]

Originally Posted by Tigg
We eventually make it to heaven because a.) With grace we see ourselves as God sees us with our weakness and sin and, b.) because having realized (a.) we are truly repentant for having sinned against such Goodness. Sometimes fear is the only impetus in turning away from sin (although that is imperfect contrition.) How dangerous to think (or presume) one only needs to love God to be saved. Hopefully that love will lead to sorrow for our offenses, but make no mistake - without repentance, no mercy will be forthcoming. “Repentance is the door, is the key that unlocks mercy.”

sennincatholic, that is my understanding of Gods love and mercy also. The statement “but make no mistake - without repentance, no mercy will be forthcoming.” isn’t accurate. Mercy or the Latin miseracordia, literally means sorrow for anothers misery. Mercy is a free unconditional gift of God to those in a state of ‘misery’. It isn’t an ultimatum. It is an invitation of love that can restore the order of relationships. As St JPII writes in Dives in Misericordia…

In this way, mercy is in a certain sense contrasted with God’s justice, and in many cases is shown to be not only more powerful than that justice but also more profound. Even the Old Testament teaches that, although justice is an authentic virtue in man, and in God signifies transcendent perfection nevertheless love is “greater” than justice: greater in the sense that it is primary and fundamental. Love, so to speak, conditions justice and, in the final analysis, justice serves love. The primacy and superiority of love vis-a-vis justice - this is a mark of the whole of revelation - are revealed precisely through mercy. This seemed so obvious to the psalmists and prophets that the very term justice ended up by meaning the salvation accomplished by the Lord and His mercy.53 Mercy differs from justice, but is not in opposition to it, if we admit in the history of man - as the Old Testament precisely does-the presence of God, who already as Creator has linked Himself to His creature with a particular love. Love, by its very nature, excludes hatred and ill - will towards the one to whom He once gave the gift of Himself: Nihil odisti eorum quae fecisti, "you hold nothing of what you have made in abhorrence."54 These words indicate the profound basis of the relationship between justice and mercy in God, in His relations with man and the world. They tell us that we must seek the life-giving roots and intimate reasons for this relationship by going back to “the beginning,” in the very mystery of creation. They foreshadow in the context of the Old Covenant the full revelation of God, who is “love.”

 

[Tigg]

How is it that telling people that God is merciful and forgives sins is a spin? If it is a spin, it was a spin set in motion by Jesus.

It is a half-truth without mentioning the prerequisite of repentance. God’s mercy is not automatic; it requires man to turn his face to God and embrace metanoia (which is a new way of thinking and acting; a true conversion which effects an actual change.) It is in this manner that mercy is accessed. A conscious effort must be made to acknowledge that we ourselves have caused the separation from God and a movement from within the heart toward God with accompanying sorrow is necessary. It is so easy to say God is merciful and forgives sins. Of course this is true, but how can God extend His forgiveness without actual contrition? Repent and sin no more- the most fundamental element taught in every church doctrine throughout time.

 

[LongingSoul]

It is a half-truth without mentioning the prerequisite of repentance. God’s mercy is not automatic; it requires man to turn his face to God and embrace metanoia (which is a new way of thinking and acting; a true conversion which effects an actual change.) It is in this manner that mercy is accessed. A conscious effort must be made to acknowledge that we ourselves have caused the separation from God and a movement from within the heart toward God with accompanying sorrow is necessary. It is so easy to say God is merciful and forgives sins. Of course this is true, but how can God extend His forgiveness without actual contrition? Repent and sin no more- the most fundamental element taught in every church doctrine throughout time.

You seem to be speaking of mercy as if it meant ‘salvation’. Mercy is a free gift from God that isn’t ‘earned’. Gods mercy leads to repentance. St Faustina in describing the gift of final repentance describes the work of mercy this way…

"God’s mercy sometimes touches the sinner at the last moment in a wondrous and mysterious way. Outwardly, it seems as if everything were lost, but it is not so. The soul, illumined by a ray of God’s powerful final The Gift, turns to God in the last moment with such a power of love that, in an instant, it receives from God absolution of sins and remission of punishment, while outwardly it shows no sign either of repentance or of contrition, because souls [at that stage] no longer react to external things.

Oh, how beyond comprehension is God’s mercy!

But - horror! - There are also souls who voluntarily and consciously reject and scorn this The Gift! Although a person is at the point of death, the merciful God gives the soul that interior vivid moment, so that if the soul is willing, it has the possibility of returning to God. But sometimes, the obduracy in souls is so great that consciously they choose hell; they [thus] make useless all the prayers that other souls offer to God for them and even the efforts of God Himself…" Diary, 1698

The gift of mercy is freely given first by God and leads the sinner to repentance. I have St Faustinas diaries and throughout… this is the message of Gods mercy that she drives home to us over and over.

(Obdurate - 1. unmoved by persuasion, pity, or tender feelings; stubborn; unyielding.
2. stubbornly resistant to moral influence; persistently impenitent:
an obdurate sinner.)

 

[sennincatholic]

sennincatholic, that is my understanding of Gods love and mercy also. The statement “but make no mistake - without repentance, no mercy will be forthcoming.” isn’t accurate. Mercy or the Latin miseracordia, literally means sorrow for anothers misery. Mercy is a free unconditional gift of God to those in a state of ‘misery’. It isn’t an ultimatum. It is an invitation of love that can restore the order of relationships. As St JPII writes in Dives in Misericordia…

In this way, mercy is in a certain sense contrasted with God’s justice, and in many cases is shown to be not only more powerful than that justice but also more profound. Even the Old Testament teaches that, although justice is an authentic virtue in man, and in God signifies transcendent perfection nevertheless love is “greater” than justice: greater in the sense that it is primary and fundamental. Love, so to speak, conditions justice and, in the final analysis, justice serves love. The primacy and superiority of love vis-a-vis justice - this is a mark of the whole of revelation - are revealed precisely through mercy. This seemed so obvious to the psalmists and prophets that the very term justice ended up by meaning the salvation accomplished by the Lord and His mercy.53 Mercy differs from justice, but is not in opposition to it, if we admit in the history of man - as the Old Testament precisely does-the presence of God, who already as Creator has linked Himself to His creature with a particular love. Love, by its very nature, excludes hatred and ill - will towards the one to whom He once gave the gift of Himself: Nihil odisti eorum quae fecisti, "you hold nothing of what you have made in abhorrence."54 These words indicate the profound basis of the relationship between justice and mercy in God, in His relations with man and the world. They tell us that we must seek the life-giving roots and intimate reasons for this relationship by going back to “the beginning,” in the very mystery of creation. They foreshadow in the context of the Old Covenant the full revelation of God, who is “love.”

Thanks very much for this Lovingsoul:thumbsup:

 

[Tsuwano]

If you cannot see the logically difficulties with that, I am going to have to just drop this discussion.

That’s probably the best thing you can do at this point.

 

[Tsuwano]

Easy fix; just look up the context and explain why you think it misinterpreted.

The Devil may quote scripture but I have never heard of him quoting chapter and verse.

Yes, I could do that, but I’m not the one hurling scripture verses. Perhaps you can attempt to explain the verses within the context of the conversation we’re presently having and the appropriateness in the light of the Pope’s statement that the Church is not in the business of eternal condemnation.

 

[Tsuwano]

It is a half-truth without mentioning the prerequisite of repentance. God’s mercy is not automatic; it requires man to turn his face to God and embrace metanoia (which is a new way of thinking and acting; a true conversion which effects an actual change.) It is in this manner that mercy is accessed. A conscious effort must be made to acknowledge that we ourselves have caused the separation from God and a movement from within the heart toward God with accompanying sorrow is necessary. It is so easy to say God is merciful and forgives sins. Of course this is true, but how can God extend His forgiveness without actual contrition? Repent and sin no more- the most fundamental element taught in every church doctrine throughout time.

Well, I’m not sure why it is necessary to mention the necessity of repentance at this point. The Pope is talking about the tendency to emphasize God’s condemnation over his mercy, which strikes me as a more prevailing problem. We cannot earn or achieve God’s mercy. It is granted to us freely and fully and, though I believe it is best to repent, it is still God’s call and not mine. Mercy is not something I buy. Neither can I play the older brother and walk away in anger when God, to my annoyance, offers mercy to the prodigal son whom I think has no business receiving mercy. Yes, I absolutely agree that a conscious effort should be made to acknowledge that we ourselves have caused the separation from God and desire to reorient ourselves towards God’s will, but what exactly does repentance mean? Is it one definitive act or is it a gradual turn which may take a life time? I would think it may be both, but knowledge of God’s mercy, his standing at the door with open arms waiting to receive us, is itself a guide or a motive for repentance. That, I think, is what the Pope is talking about. Emphasizing the condemnation which accompanies sin may, in fact, scare many away from the love of God. I would prefer to err on the side of mercy. It strikes me as more Christ - like.