Pope won't call Islam religion of peace

[buffalo]

Genesis315:

From the CCC (my bold):
**675 **Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers.573 The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth574 will unveil the “mystery of iniquity” in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.575

Or is it liberalism? Liberlism is a Sin

Liberalism is the root of heresy, the tree of evil in whose branches all the harpies of infidelity find ample shelter; it is today the evil of all evils. (Ch. 4). “The theater, literature, public and private morals are all saturated with obscenity and impurity. The result is inevitable; a corrupt generation necessarily begets a revolutionary generation. Liberalism is the program of naturalism. Free-thought begets free morals, or immorality. Restraint is thrown off and a free rein given to the passions. Whoever thinks what he pleases will do what he pleases. Liberalism in the intellectual order is license in the moral order. Disorder in the intellect begets disorder in the heart, and vice-versa. Thus does Liberalism propagate immorality, and immorality Liberalism.” (Ch. 26).

Liberalism “is, therefore, the radical and universal denial of all divine truth and Christian dogma, the primal type of all heresy, and the supreme rebellion against the authority of God and His Church. As with Lucifer, its maxim is, ‘I will not serve.’” (Ch. 3).

“Liberalism, whether in the doctrinal or practical order, is a sin. In the doctrinal order, it is heresy, and consequently a mortal sin against faith. In the practical order, it is a sin against the commandments of God and of the Church, for it virtually transgresses all commandments. To be more precise: in the doctrinal order, Liberalism strikes at the very foundations of faith; it is heresy radical and universal, because within it are comprehended all heresies. In the practical order it is a radical and universal infraction of the divine law, since it sanctions and authorizes all infractions of that law.” (Ch. 3).

 

[buffalo]

byzmelkite:

I must confess that I’m not a huge fan of Vatican II. I accept anything in Vatican II that is formally defined as Dogma, but I do not think that the overly optimistic and humanistic tone of Vatican II was prudent nor am I required to think so to be a completely faithful 100% Catholic. If such statements from Vatican II reflect some real substantial doctrinal change, then it is a repudiation of the whole tradition and the Bible. To be honest with you, there are times when Vatican II is the biggest stumbling block to my being Catholic.

Remember this - the Church grows organically. Nothing reverses ( the truth cannot be reveresed), it only gets fuller.

 

[UnworthySoul]

Karin:

by no means was I saying that Islam and the Catholic faith were equal…no two religions are…some religions have similar beliefs though. I posted it so people could see what the Pope said and that it still applies today…forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom
**

That only works when BOTH sides are willing to step out of the past. The Islamists are certainly NOT willing to do that.

 

[Karin]

UnworthySoul:

That only works when BOTH sides are willing to step out of the past. The Islamists are certainly NOT willing to do that.

I know that not all Muslims are terrorists just as I know not all Catholics are racist. So what does this say for the Catholics who are bashing Muslims?? Should the Muslims and Christians that want to move forward be halted because a select few from each fatih are not willing???

 

[Lance]

Karin:

by no means was I saying that Islam and the Catholic faith were equal…no two religions are…some religions have similar beliefs though. I posted it so people could see what the Pope said and that it still applies today…forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom

OK, I will forget what Islam did over, let’s say 50 years ago. I will not forget what they have done in the past 20 years and are continuing to do today. I will not forget 9/11, the Cole, our embasies, the Olypmics, the atacks on our military outside of combat, the hi-jacking of a plane and murder of a Navy man in Beruit or 7/7. If you forget then the attacks will contine and they will force you to either accept Islam or die. No, I will never forget!

 

[Karin]

Lance:

OK, I will forget what Islam did over, let’s say 50 years ago. I will not forget what they have done in the past 20 years and are continuing to do today. I will not forget 9/11, the Cole, our embasies, the Olypmics, the atacks on our military outside of combat, the hi-jacking of a plane and murder of a Navy man in Beruit or 7/7. If you forget then the attacks will contine and they will force you to either accept Islam or die. No, I will never forget!

Lance:
**But you miss the point that it is not ALL of Islam that has done these things.!!! Or it could be that I miss the point and you dont care if it was one muslim or all of them…they are all terrorists in your eyes?!? **

 

[Lance]

Karin:

Lance:
**But you miss the point that it is not ALL of Islam that has done these things.!!! Or it could be that I miss the point and you dont care if it was one muslim or all of them…they are all terrorists in your eyes?!? **

Not all of them are terrorist, I have heard that about 20% are hard core Jihadist. However, all of them are responsible for getting their religion under control. Not all Germans were Nazis but all of them were questioned and re-questioned when they traveled during WW II or just after.

 

[Karin]

Lance:

Not all of them are terrorist, I have heard that about 20% are hard core Jihadist. However, all of them are responsible for getting their religion under control. Just like it is up to ALL Catholics to get their faith under control! Not all Germans were Nazis but all of them were questioned and re-questioned when they traveled during WW II or just after.Yeah…and they still are finding some Nazi’s , who immigrated and got citizenship, in the States.

 

[Brad]

Thank you Holy Father. Truth is truth.

 

[Lance]

The only terrorist I am aware of that claimed they were doing what they did in the name of Catholicism was the IRA. There was never a shortage of Catholics condemning what they did and there have not been any attacks in recient memory, so even though you are not a Catholic, you must admit we have good control of our religion. Much more than the Islamist. You made my point, even with the checking that went on some Nazis got away and some terrorist will slip through any net we cast but if we don’t try we will not catch any. Is that what you want?

 

[Karin]

Lance:

The only terrorist I am aware of that claimed they were doing what they did in the name of Catholicism was the IRA. There was never a shortage of Catholics condemning what they did and there have not been any attacks in recient memory, so even though you are not a Catholic, you must admit we have good control of our religion. Control yes in regards to terrorists…control as to church doctirine NO. Much more than the Islamist. You made my point, even with the checking that went on some Nazis got away and some terrorist will slip through any net we cast but if we don’t try we will not catch any. Is that what you want? Not at all. But then since you stated Catholics (IRA) are terrorists (even though no bombs have been set off lately) perhaps all Catholics and Mulsims should be put under the microscope?

Lance, I think we are going to have to respectfully agree to disagree.

 

[Lance]

Karin:

Lance, I think we are going to have to respectfully agree to disagree.

You know not what you speak of. The Catholic Church has absolute, 100% control of our doctrine. Unlike the protestants and Muslims, we are not free to interprit our Holy Book or doctrins any way we want. And don’t put words in my mouth. I said the IRA ‘was’ a terrorist organization. We are talking about current events. Stick to the subject if you can.

 

[Karin]

Lance:

You know not what you speak of. The Catholic Church has absolute, 100% control of our doctrine. Unlike the protestants and Muslims, we are not free to interprit our Holy Book or doctrins any way we want. dont certain priests do that by giving communion to people that support abortion? And don’t put words in my mouth. I said the IRA ‘was’ a terrorist organization. We are talking about current events. Stick to the subject if you can. Yes I will try try to stop mentioning Nazi’s and the IRA then!

 

[Ahimsa]

buffalo:

“I would not like to use big words to apply generic labels,” he replied. “It certainly contains elements that can favor peace, it also has other elements: We must always seek the best elements.” %between%

It seems like this sort of statement could be applied to any of the major (or even “minor”) religions of the world, as well as political, economic, and social systems. All of them have elements that could be utilized to support either violence or peace.

 

[UnworthySoul]

Karin:

I know that not all Muslims are terrorists just as I know not all Catholics are racist. So what does this say for the Catholics who are bashing Muslims?? Should the Muslims and Christians that want to move forward be halted because a select few from each fatih are not willing???

Which Catholics are bashing Muslims? What do you mean by bashing? Saying their faith in untrue? It is untrue. I’m not going to apologize for not being “inclusive” or taking the relativist tack of saying “to each his/her own” or some other such nonsense. Read Dominus Iesus, it’s all there. I will pray they convert as the Catholic Church holds the message of Christ who is eternal life. Does this mean I will force any Muslim to accept Christ? Of course not, but I will pray for them.

When I see attacks by terrorists who are Muslim, I will indeed say that they claim to be acting in the name of Islam. I will say there are a disproportionate number of Muslims who admit they would remain silent if they knew and could tip police off about impending attacks but refuse to do so(proven). I most certainly will call Islamic regimes to the carpet for their support of terrorism. Of course I will be told that these people and regimes do not represent “true Islam” and that may very well be true, but the onus is on them to prove that to us. Or not, but to not do that is to invite certain reactions. To think we will just accept their words when they back it up with nothing is asking us to tie the noose around our own throats. You can do that, I will not.

I’m sorry but I will not remain silent because someone’s feelings might get hurt. It is utterly foolish to hide the truth out of some insipid nervousness of offending their cultural sensibilities.

Look at the Free Muslim movement, these guys are on point. They are very forward and outspoken in their demands for reform of Islam. I respect that very much. Look at Sufism, mystical Islam. There is no notion of suicide bombing or terrorism coming from Sufi Muslims.

As far as those Catholics and Muslims who do not want to move forward, the difference is the Catholics do not think killing people for their cause is acceptable. I’m real sorry but when someone’s ideology promotes killing innocent women and children then you have to deal with them. Yes you can get on with the process of moving forward, but to turn a blind eye to the murderers is to invite more bloodshed. It isn’t pleasant, but it is the truth.

 

[UnworthySoul]

Karin, what part of the Catholic faith needs to be gotten under control? Are you referring to the pedophile priests? News for you friend, we ARE handling that. Priests are being jailed and seminaries are vetting candidates to ensure this never happens again. What’s more, this is coming from the top, the Vatican. Difference? Islamists are still blowing themselves and innocents up all over the place. Islam is still being forced on people who don’t want it (look at the persecution of Catholics and animists in Africa occuring on a daily basis).

 

[Karin]

UnworthySoul:

Which Catholics are bashing Muslims?I am not naming names…but read some posts on different threads What do you mean by bashing? Telling Muslims that they are all terrorists, that their religion is wrong, that they are stupid. etc.Saying their faith in untrue? It is untrue. I’m not going to apologize for not being “inclusive” or taking the relativist tack of saying “to each his/her own” or some other such nonsense. Then you better tell all religions and people that are not Catholic that their religion is untrue. I do not see that happening here. Read Dominus Iesus, it’s all there. I will pray they convert as the Catholic Church holds the message of Christ who is eternal life. Does this mean I will force any Muslim to accept Christ? Of course not, but I will pray for them.

When I see attacks by terrorists who are Muslim, I will indeed say that they claim to be acting in the name of Islam. I will say there are a disproportionate number of Muslims who admit they would remain silent if they knew and could tip police off about impending attacks but refuse to do so(proven). I most certainly will call Islamic regimes to the carpet for their support of terrorism. Of course I will be told that these people and regimes do not represent “true Islam” and that may very well be true, but the onus is on them to prove that to us. Or not, but to not do that is to invite certain reactions. To think we will just accept their words when they back it up with nothing is asking us to tie the noose around our own throats. You can do that, I will not.

I’m sorry but I will not remain silent because someone’s feelings might get hurt. It is utterly foolish to hide the truth out of some insipid nervousness of offending their cultural sensibilities.

Look at the Free Muslim movement, these guys are on point. They are very forward and outspoken in their demands for reform of Islam. I respect that very much. Look at Sufism, mystical Islam. There is no notion of suicide bombing or terrorism coming from Sufi Muslims.

As far as those Catholics and Muslims who do not want to move forward, the difference is the Catholics do not think killing people for their cause is acceptable. I’m real sorry but when someone’s ideology promotes killing innocent women and children then you have to deal with them. Yes you can get on with the process of moving forward, but to turn a blind eye to the murderers is to invite more bloodshed. It isn’t pleasant, but it is the truth. I never said I was turning a “blind” eye to the killings,

 

[UnworthySoul]

Lance:

The only terrorist I am aware of that claimed they were doing what they did in the name of Catholicism was the IRA. There was never a shortage of Catholics condemning what they did and there have not been any attacks in recient memory, so even though you are not a Catholic, you must admit we have good control of our religion. Much more than the Islamist. You made my point, even with the checking that went on some Nazis got away and some terrorist will slip through any net we cast but if we don’t try we will not catch any. Is that what you want?

The IRA are first and foremost Socialists. Their history stems from the IRB, the Catholic gangs that defended other Catholics from British Protestant aggression in Ireland. The Catholics were kept dirt poor by their British Protestant overlords. Socialism starting looking good to the IRA and that is where their aggression comes from. Not from Catholicism. The IRA is a POLITICAL group, NOT a religious one. Radical Islam is a religious movement. There is a difference even though both groups are terrorists.

 

[UnworthySoul]

Ahimsa:

It seems like this sort of statement could be applied to any of the major (or even “minor”) religions of the world, as well as political, economic, and social systems. All of them have elements that could be utilized to support either violence or peace.

But which others are killing on such a scale? 30 out of 32 conflicts in the world involve Muslim extremism. We can say that not all Muslims are terrorists, and that is true, but when you avoid saying that some Muslims are indeed terrorists because it might hurt someone’s feelings you close your eyes to the truth. Why do this? The logic of it escapes me.

 

[Karin]

UnworthySoul:

But which others are killing on such a scale? 30 out of 32 conflicts in the world involve Muslim extremism. We can say that not all Muslims are terrorists, and that is true, but when you avoid saying that some Muslims are indeed terrorists because it might hurt someone’s feelings you close your eyes to the truth. Why do this? The logic of it escapes me.

I dont think, unless I missed it somewhere, that anyone has avoided saying “some Muslims are terrorists” (please note I did not say all Muslims are) . I take offense to people saying ALL Muslims are terrorists though (but that is me).