Pope's speech to US Congress [full text] [CC]

[Path_Finder]

If I may, the argument people are putting up, seems to be taking issue with what the Vatican has codified. If one wants to say, “hey, kids starve and it’s the same as abortion”, have at it.

But if we are going by Church teaching, where is it found in Church teaching? If one is bringing up the Screwtape letters, the Evil one, hey, guess what?? Couldn’t that same thing be said for those who are arguing this counter point?

**
SACRED CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH

DECLARATION ON PROCURED ABORTION**

1. The problem of procured abortion and of its possible legal liberalization has become more or less everywhere the subject of impassioned discussions. These debates would be less grave were it not a question of human life, a primordial value, which must be protected and promoted. Everyone understands this, although many look for reasons, even against all evidence, to promote the use of abortion. One cannot but be astonished to see a simultaneous increase of unqualified protests against the death penalty and every form of war and the vindication of the liberalization of abortion, either in its entirety or in ever broader indications. The Church is too conscious of the fact that it belongs to her vocation to defend man against everything that could disintegrate or lessen his dignity to remain silent on such a topic. Because the Son of God became man, there is no man who is not His brother in humanity and who is not called to become a Christian in order to receive salvation from Him.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19741118_declaration-abortion_en.html

It looks like one’s argument is with the Vatican, not with Catholics trying to follow the faith. Otherwise, we are really back to Whoopi Goldberg’s argument, “abortion isn’t in the Bible”, okay, one can have that attitude but I don’t think it’s Catholic teaching. In other words, it is seemingly counter to such Catholic teaching and that seems to be where your debate would start at.

 

[Romans615]

Not legally in the US and in many other countries.

Like I said earlier, I’m pro-life.

 

[Romans615]

If I may, the argument people are putting up, seems to be taking issue with what the Vatican has codified. If one wants to say, “hey, kids starve and it’s the same as abortion”, have at it.

But if we are going by Church teaching, where is it found in Church teaching? If one is bringing up the Screwtape letters, the Evil one, hey, guess what??

It looks like one’s argument is with the Vatican, not with Catholics trying to follow the faith. Otherwise, we are really back to Whoopi Goldberg’s argument, “abortion isn’t in the Bible”, okay, one can have that attitude but I don’t think it’s Catholic teaching. In other words, it is seemingly counter to such teaching.

Here we go again. Starvation is NOT the only example I posted.

 

[sallybutler]

Yes, you are wrong, on about all of your assumptions. I could make the assumption that people who try to bring these arguments up are trying to rationalize tacitly supporting abortion.

I do not support abortion. Period . Amen.

I do support taking care of the born just as much as the unborn.

Is that wrong?

You, along with others, have suggested that stopping all abortions is more important than anything else. I am suggesting that you should work towards stopping abortions while others work towards dealing with hunger, homelessness, illnesses, etc. Does that make those of us working on non-abortion issues less than those of you working on abortion issues less Catholic?

 

[Romans615]

Have a good evening, folks. God bless all of you.

 

[Suudy]

Sorry, I don’t buy your excuse for the murder of kids in wars. The war in Iraq was a “Just war”? George Bush is responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths, and Obama doesn’t get a pass, either. If you started a needless war, then you know that what you’re doing will kill children, and you’re culpable.

Name a single person who advocated for the death of a single born child in Iraq or elsewhere? I can name several who think it acceptable in the womb.

 

[Suudy]

Here we go again. Starvation is NOT the only example I posted.

You are equating an intentional act–abortion–with unintentional acts such as starvation and war. There is a difference morally. A huge one.

 

[Path_Finder]

I do not support abortion. Period . Amen.

I do support taking care of the born just as much as the unborn.

Is that wrong?

You, along with others, have suggested that stopping all abortions is more important than anything else.

No, nobody said this.

I am suggesting that you should work towards stopping abortions while others work towards dealing with hunger, homelessness, illnesses, etc. Does that make those of us working on non-abortion issues less than those of you working on abortion issues less Catholic?

Okay, I will follow Catholic teaching.

** SACRED CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH

DECLARATION ON PROCURED ABORTION**

1. The problem of procured abortion and of its possible legal liberalization has become more or less everywhere the subject of impassioned discussions. These debates would be less grave were it not a question of human life, a primordial value, which must be protected and promoted. Everyone understands this, although many look for reasons, even against all evidence, to promote the use of abortion. One cannot but be astonished to see a simultaneous increase of unqualified protests against the death penalty and every form of war and the vindication of the liberalization of abortion, either in its entirety or in ever broader indications. The Church is too conscious of the fact that it belongs to her vocation to defend man against everything that could disintegrate or lessen his dignity to remain silent on such a topic. Because the Son of God became man, there is no man who is not His brother in humanity and who is not called to become a Christian in order to receive salvation from Him.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19741118_declaration-abortion_en.html

This would seem to be where this debate lies. One has no idea what I do to help the poor, feed the hungry. This is an assumption one is making. And an erroneous one at that.

 

[sallybutler]

You and Sally are fond of the word “only”. Who’s being exclusive?

In case you didn’t notice, I modified the word only. That is because I recognize that most of us have a main hobby horse, but we have other issues we work with. I apologise for using the word only in addition to the word primary.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Everyone knows the Catholic Church’s position on abortion and homosexuality. But these things cannot be the only thing people hear from the Church. After all Christ never mentioned either of those issues. (And I am not saying this as someone who says those things are okay. (I pray occasionally at abortion clinics).

A lot of people legitimately disagree on where life begins and they legitimately disagree about marriage. But there are other areas where maybe they can agree with us. And maybe when those other areas of the Church are highlighted, perhaps it will allow the Church to see Christ in His entirety. People if they don’t know Jesus aren’t going to care one bit what He has to say about abortion or gay marriage.

He’s trying to let people get a full picture of our Church. You realize so many people don’t know how much the Church does for the poor? etc.

Thank you for this. Honestly I believe this is what Pope Francis strives to do. To paint a portrait of the entirety of the Catholic faith and his wish, I believe, is that those who profess full faithfulness will follow him in this endeavor. I think you’re onto something perhaps. I would agree, anyone who has been listening and has an interest in knowing, by now most likely knows the Church’s position on abortion and gay marriage. How could they not? It’s not that they are any less important to the Catholic faithful. But they have been beaten into the ground imho. When as you suggest, there is so much more!

I do think on outlets such as this one though, politics is part of the problem. Many here on this forum it does seem to me think one US party, the Republican, best represents Catholicism. On abortion and marriage absolutely I would agree the Republican Party comes closer. But not on some other issues. I listened to the Pope, for instance, on the death penalty as a life issue and his call to abolish it. And on immigration, etc. And I had to ask myself, now which party best reflects Catholicism on these issues? And the fact is as others have pointed out, the Pope is neither a Republican nor Democrat. And Catholicism does not fit neatly into the box of any party.

 

[sallybutler]

No, nobody said this.

Okay, I will follow Catholic teaching.

This would seem to be where this debate lies. One has no idea what I do to help the poor, feed the hungry. This is an assumption one is making. And an erroneous one at that.

I don’t know what you support in addition to anti-abortion, just as you don’t know what I support against abortion.

However, anytime anyone says some issue is a problem, you say it isn’t as bad as the abortion issue, thereby trying to reduce the other issue to something that shouldn’t be dealt with. I don’t think you realise that you are putting down those other ministries when you do this.

All of God’s ministries are important. Each of us is called to different ministries, depending on our abilities. You are called to prevent abortion, and I respect you for that. I am not. Btw, I do not envy you, as I think you have been called to one of the harder ministries. But, please do not judge us who have been called to other ministries.

 

[Suudy]

I do not support abortion. Period . Amen.

I do support taking care of the born just as much as the unborn.

Is that wrong?

No. It’s laudable.

You, along with others, have suggested that stopping all abortions is more important than anything else. I am suggesting that you should work towards stopping abortions while others work towards dealing with hunger, homelessness, illnesses, etc. Does that make those of us working on non-abortion issues less than those of you working on abortion issues less Catholic?

Who ever said you or anyone else is “less Catholic”?

 

[adrift]

EWTN radio following Pope Francis with Raymond Arroyo said that it can be “merciful” to execute a criminal and was arguing why capital punishment is a legitimate practice in our country, despite what the Holy Father said to congress.

Am I the only catholic who thinks Raymond’s argument is extremely stupid? The pro-abortionists use the same stupid logic to defend abortion as well. EWTN is doing our church a disservice by overtly politicizing our faith to the benefit of the GOP.

His argument was that knowing when you would be executed might bring the person to reform is the same argument that abortionist use? Now why do you think the argument is stupid?

 

[Sy_Noe]

I especially like the Pope’s homily yesterday at the canonization Mass for Junipero Serra:

nytimes.com/2015/09/23/us/pope-francis-homily-at-the-canonization-mass-for-the-rev-junipero-serra.html

What a nice message after all the outrage from some people over a few gay Christians having been invited with thousands of others to greet the Pope at the White House.

Thoroflr, this thread is moving too quickly for me to keep up as I’m only on this page and it’s getting late where I am. But thank you for this. If you hear the Pope and I can tell you do, he speaks a lot about dialoguing with a wide spectrum of people. I’m certain he was joyful and heartfelt to have gay Christians greet him. The Pontiff seems to thrive among people. He seems to nearly have a perpetual smile on his face when he is among others.

 

[Path_Finder]

I don’t know what you support in addition to anti-abortion, just as you don’t know what I support against abortion.

However, anytime anyone says some issue is a problem, you say it isn’t as bad as the abortion issue, thereby trying to reduce the other issue to something that shouldn’t be dealt with. I don’t think you realise that you are putting down those other ministries when you do this.

All of God’s ministries are important. Each of us is called to different ministries, depending on our abilities. You are called to prevent abortion, and I respect you for that. I am not. Btw, I do not envy you, as I think you have been called to one of the harder ministries. But, please do not judge us who have been called to other ministries.

Please take the “I” or “You” out of this, this is about what the Vatican has said, if one takes issue with the Vatican pronouncements on abortion, that is what should be debated, not whether we are also trying to take care of the homeless, feed the hungry and so on.

I doubt if I would see a conversation about feeding the hungry and then, interject, “well, why aren’t we talking about abortion?”, yet, this seems to go on in this conversation.

If one is adverse to the Catholic teaching, then one should state it instead of saying some people are defending this or that. This should cease as it is irrelevant to the conversation. I do not appreciate this.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19741118_declaration-abortion_en.html

 

[anthony022071]

Uniintentionally?
There is no shortage of information on this planet regarding the murder, of children who have already been born, and so I do see culpability in not helping those kids if one is able to.

I’m pro-life, and I’m not one of the “Love the fetus, but after it’s born, well, that’s different.” folks. I love life, born and unborn.

If a child has been murdered, that is different than if a child died of starvation because people nearby carelessly neglected to feed him or because people in far away places didn’t help him.

Evil conditions are not the same as intentionally evil actions, and they are not always any particular person’s fault. To regard society or the world as directly accountable for all evil conditions is a wrong way of thinking. Ultimately, it is God who makes or allows bad events and conditions to happen, for his own good purposes. He draws good out of what is bad.

 

[ichabode]

This is the greatest Pope to date. Proud to be a Catholic today. I especially like his prolife view on the death penalty. Way to go Pope Francis.

*“This conviction has led me, from the beginning of my ministry, to advocate at different levels for the global abolition of the death penalty. I am convinced that this way is the best, since every life is sacred, every human person is endowed with an inalienable dignity, and society can only benefit from the rehabilitation of those convicted of crimes. Recently my brother bishops here in the United States renewed their call for the abolition of the death penalty. Not only do I support them, but I also offer encouragement to all those who are convinced that a just and necessary punishment must never exclude the dimension of hope and the goal of rehabilitation.” *

I am astonished. I cannot wait for the Church to begin to see the dignity of those in prison. I wonder were is the charity to lock up rapist and killers, so that we can protect ourselves only for them to have a smorgasbord to dine on in prison. How charitable is it to make ourselves feel good by eliminating the death penalty. I bet you those in prison who are killed and raped daily do not think it was so loving.

Don’t forget that when the we recite, “we can protect our society” that it is not charitable or loving to completely deny the society of those in prison.

Imagine I stop a rapist after he entered my house. Just imagine for a second he was going to rape and kill my two daughters, my sons and my wife. Me of course I like all my neighbors to know how Christian and forgiving I am, so I take the prisoner, and say look at my mercy, I will not kill you. Instead I will lock you in my neighbors house. Maybe it is your house and your wife and your daughters and sons. When that monster is finished make sure you thank all those Bishops, priest, and nuns who made that possible.

How about this send all the rapist and killers not to death row, but to the convents and monasteries that support such insane ideas that a society only matters if I am in there, but damn those societies where I am not. St. Dimas pray for us, and pray for those in prison.

Prisoners are not in jail for us to experiment on and we do have an obligation to them as well.

 

[Suudy]

No, nobody said this.

I’ll say it. I did say it. Pope JPII essentially says it:
The inviolability of the person which is a reflection of the absolute inviolability of God, finds its primary and fundamental expression in the inviolability of human life. Above all, the common outcry, which is justly made on behalf of human rights – for example, the right to health, to home, to work, to family, to culture – is false and illusory if the right to life, the most basic and fundamental right and the condition for all other personal rights, is not defended with maximum determination.
priestsforlife.org/magisterium/christifideleslaici.html

The right to life is fundamental. All other rights are contingent upon it. Food, shelter, clothing, all are meaningless without the right to life. The right to life is THE most important.

 

[ichabode]

A lot of people legitimately disagree on where life begins

Bekalc, there is the problem. If one is unsure where life begins then the greatest caution should be on protecting the life.

If I put a box before you and told you that there was a baby inside it how would you investigate that claim? Maybe you would put your ear to the box and listen I doubt you would take a sword and start plunging it inside to see if the tip had blood on it, or kick the box around.

If you are to investigate if and when life begins be merciful in your investigation.

 

[anthony022071]

Sorry, I don’t buy your excuse for the murder of kids in wars. The war in Iraq was a “Just war”? George Bush is responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths, and Obama doesn’t get a pass, either. If you started a needless war, then you know that what you’re doing will kill children, and you’re culpable.

Murder is intentional killing, especially when there is no excuse of self-defense or war. Soldiers who have killed people during war are not held accountable for murder unless they deliberately killed civilians. And leaders of countries are not held accountable for murder even if they are responsible for the deaths of many people in war. There are different grades of moral culpability.