Pope's stance on gays 'like Hitler'

[Digger71]

BlindSheep:

First of all, that is impossible to prove since you cannot prove that a child would not have been adopted by a heterosexual couple if they had not already been adopted by a homosexual couple -

In individual cases this is true, but not when examining the overall picture. There are simply not enough adoptive couples, and not enough interested in the 3+ years age group. Disability and behavioural difficulties are also deeply problematic for adoption chances.

and secondly, no adoption is preferable to adoption into some homes, wouldn’t you agree? I feel homosexual homes fall into that category.

Why?

 

[BlindSheep]

Digger71:

In individual cases this is true, but not when examining the overall picture. There are simply not enough adoptive couples, and not enough interested in the 3+ years age group. Disability and behavioural difficulties are also deeply problematic for adoption chances.

So the “second best” kids get a “second best” home?
Besides, are you saying that when a heterosexual couple is availiable, you don’t have a problem with them being preferred over the homosexual couple?

Why?

Look, if I posted research showing gay households were harmful to kids (which others have already done) you would simply dismiss it as biased, or as a side effect of society’s lack of acceptance. The bottom line is that for you, making sure that gays can get the children they want is more important than protecting children from harmful environments, so no amount of evidence would sway you.

 

[fix]

Digger71:

ElJay,

There is a great deal of denial on these boards about homophobia and anti-gay discrimination. I have come across posts where queer-bashing is denied, or more amusingly claims that most violence experienced by gays is when two men are fighting over a third.

Homophobia is a conjured up word used to intimidate and silence others. By anti gay you mean that most are offended and alarmed by a culture that is contrary to reason?

In the case of adoption the argument has to come from what will benefit the child, not the gay couple. The argument against gay adoption is that it is not ‘ideal’ for the child. The choice is not between a same-sex couple and a mixed-sex couple, but between a same-sex couple and a state home.

The choice is bewteen what is right and what is wrong.

 

[Digger71]

fix:

Homophobia is a conjured up word used to intimidate and silence others. By anti gay you mean that most are offended and alarmed by a culture that is contrary to reason?

Homophobia is a word to describe real-world phenomina.

But thank you for proving my point.

fix:

The choice is bewteen what is right and what is wrong.

Hmmmm.

 

[bones_IV]

Digger71:

The ‘model’ for sin was that all sins are there for everyone and equal for everyone, and this is really exemplified by the “I’m poor but I dont take drugs” sort of arguments. The assumption was and is that if one person could resist sin X, everyone could.

For a long time homosex just sat in the fornication bracket until the natural law arguments became formalised.

It’s a difficult combination you have there. homosexuality, murder and umm, rape and pedastry… The very combination should raise an eyebrow because “one of these things is not like the other, one of these things just isnt the same”. The only similarity they have is the claim they are sins. Hmmm, can you see the problem with that?

And I rather doubt your assertion about murder, I think that is rather a common temptation. But that’s an aside.

Anyway, 3 have victims, one does not, doesnt this bother you?)

Hmmmmm. I think the reverse argument could be made, that these are true expressions of sexuality, but that is a different argument.

The 2% represents men who self-identify as gay and are public about their sexual orientation. I have no doubt that many more men have homosexual experiences, and I suspect that 1-2% are probably homosexual, but dont admit it.

They dont have inclinations. They are homosexual. And I’m pretty sure it not a sin for them. I think it would probably be a sin for them to sleep with women.

Define child? There is no universal age of consent, and as noted before marriagable age was 12 and up in other times.

Oh, and by the way, again you compare a victimless crime with a rape. Surely you can see the difference?

Additionally, the constant conflation of homosex with rape, murder and pedastry just creates the link in the mind. Examination of the facts shows there is no similarity.

They are only objectively disordered if you view the production of children as sexs’ only function. Clearly the unitive function exists.

Wow! you finally have managed to make the distinction.

No it doesnt. That’s just in your head.

Homosexual couples are incidentaly barren. People do not ‘go gay’ to thwart the grand design and avoid having children. They use contraceptives.

In anycase, the church still recognises the benefits of marriage and sex to barren couples. Gays are just like any barren couple.

Homosexual couples are like barren couples? There is no comparison at all here. Because homosexual couples cannot produce children, heterosexual couples can. There’s a difference. To say that Gays are like barren couples is a straw man argument. Remember the parable of the straw and mud? No matter how often you mix straw w/ mud the results will always be the same. No matter how much you try and sugar coat it. It’s a quadradic equation that’s worked out a dozen times and the result is always the same (assuming you work it out correctly). Like Bishop Sheen used to say, It is easy to find truth; it is hard to face it, and harder still to follow it." Certainly true when facing the fact that homosexuality is wrong and is always wrong.

 

[fix]

Digger71:

Homophobia is a word to describe real-world phenomina.

But thank you for proving my point.

Hmmmm.

Truth is hate to those who hate truth.

You want others to accept behavior that is wrong. These issues will never be reconciled. It is very much like the abortion issue. There is no middle ground.

 

[Digger71]

BlindSheep:

So the “second best” kids get a “second best” home?

When first best is taken and it’s a choice between second best and third best. Yes, second best will have to do. Taking the least bad option is fine by me.

BlindSheep:

Besides, are you saying that when a heterosexual couple is availiable, you don’t have a problem with them being preferred over the homosexual couple?

It would of course depend on circumstances, the child and the prospective parents. I would go for the best match.

Look, if I posted research showing gay households were harmful to kids (which others have already done) you would simply dismiss it as biased, or as a side effect of society’s lack of acceptance.

I am actually interested to read it. I havent seen those studies so they would add to my knowledge.

The bottom line is that for you, making sure that gays can get the children they want is more important than protecting children from harmful environments, so no amount of evidence would sway you.

Mind reading? Back in the theatre, with the great Zoobon telling me what I have in my pocket.

 

[Digger71]

fix:

Truth is hate to those who hate truth.

So, the truth is that queer bashing does not happen? That there is no anti-gay violence, and the Evil Homosexual Conspiracy invented the word ‘homophobia’ with no real-world experience of violence?

I am genuinely shocked. But again, you prove my previous point to ElJay about the denial on these boards.

It’s a pity about my irony meter, however. It was brand new and you’ve reduced it to scrap metel.

 

[wabrams]

Digger71:

It’s a difficult combination you have there. homosexuality, murder and umm, rape and pedastry… The very combination should raise an eyebrow because “one of these things is not like the other, one of these things just isnt the same”. The only similarity they have is the claim they are sins. Hmmm, can you see the problem with that?

And I rather doubt your assertion about murder, I think that is rather a common temptation. But that’s an aside.

Anyway, 3 have victims, one does not, doesnt this bother you?)

All three have victims. What about families torn apart by a parent wanting to divorce and lead a gay lifestyle? You don’t think that hurts anyone?

 

[wabrams]

ElJay:

I’m assuming you’re not gay? If you were denied these things as a hetrosexual there would be outcry, if you and your wife were unable to have a child but were told you weren’t allowed to adopt - how would you feel??? Being told you can never raise a child because of the company you keep would devastate a lot of people.

Happens everyday: people are turned down everyday do to having people living in the household who are a negative influence (an alcoholic, uses drugs, etc.).

 

[Digger71]

wabrams:

All three have victims. What about families torn apart by a parent wanting to divorce and lead a gay lifestyle? You don’t think that hurts anyone?

sheesh

Murder requires someone to die, or it not murder.
Rape requires someone to be sexually violated, or it not rape
Pedastry requires a child or it’s not pedastry…
Gay requires a divorce or its not gay…

You are joking arent you?

 

[Kristopher]

ElJay:

Homosexuality is NOT a lifestyle chioce, it is a genetic trait replicable in laborartory mice, it occurs in species other than our own in nature and is, therefore, normal - for a homosexual to “rise above” their nature would be about as natural as one of you…to be homosexual…non-existant offspring of that 6% is hardly going to be missed.

Dont feel sad about homosexuals, we’re perfectly happy the way we are…

If i was anything other than atheist i would probabally have to care!..

Dear El Jay:

Basing normality on some characteristic of homosexulaity replicated in mice is an absurd arguement–saying, worms, the only truly hermaphroditic creatures known to myself, exist as truly hermaphroditic and therefore, establish an impossible norm for humanity is equally absurd. A few yrs. ago some research identified “something” on a chromosome, which might account for homosexual behavior in people. Of course, a fair amount of research also stated: homosexuality is caused by education. The more educated a person, the less likely a person will be to fear homosexuality and those behaviors associated with homosexuality–hardly a genetic trait: education.

Homosexuality within Catholicism neither is recognized as a sin 'til acted out, nor is it recognized as something not genetic, but it is recognized within Catholicism as a relatively unknown characteristic of a person in accord with science.

Anyone of any religion would recognize an atheist as someone wholly incapable of recognizing what is sinful, and what is not sinful irregardless of your genetic structure; nonetheless, even an atheist must recognize the disorderly nature of homosexuality, because it directs people away from procreation–a more logical norm to be established by living creatures across the animal kingdom, and the plant kingdom is the truly hermaphroditic worm, which procreates as a unified body both male, and female.

Homosexuality, if it in fact exists as a cause genetic in nature, must be recognized as any other genetic “disorder”, (I am using the word loosely.), such as Downes Syndrome.

Chastity, virginity and “natural” sterility do not direct people away from procreation, but rather protect the importance of procreation among humans, because these characteristics prevent disease, emotional disturbances and recognize the fact a child may be produced by means of procreation and therefore, should only be practiced, when the responsibility for parenthood is assumed. In anycase, procreation outside Natural Family Planning should always be done with the intent of having a family to yield the full blessing of procreation.

Homosexuals, which I have known as friends have not been happy with their own self characterized by homosexuality. A number of them, the few I have known and therefore, the majority of those I have known have been suicidal. Their self-esteem has been low. Some of them, their homosexuality came as a consequence of incest, of rape, of being heart-broken. The American Psych. Assoc. does not state homosexuality to be caused exclusively by anything hereditary, but by social, by environmental, and by economic factors and the statistic used to indicate a probability that someone is homosexual, or to indicate which portion of a population is homosexual is less than one percent, the last time that I looked, which might of course prove to be even less if genetics is to be the sole basis of homosexuality.

Homosexuality within the Protestant Bible is labeled an abomination before the eyes of the Lord in other words: God hates homosexuality! He hates it.

As Catholics we are to be friends with homosexuals. We are to encourage you to pick-up your cross, homosexuality, and to carry it. Whatever suffering you experience as a consequence of homosexuality–Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome (AIDS), or not marrying the opposite sex and therefore, going without a family, but devoting to others your time and your energy, which encourages families: all these sufferings are to be united to Christ’s cross.

You may have heard it in the past, but you and I in our sins crucified Jesus, one of the three persons of the most Holy Trinity and therefore, God. For us and for our salvation He did this. God loves us.

Most sincerely,

Kristopher

 

[Digger71]

Kristopher:

Dear El Jay:

worms, the only truly hermaphroditic creatures known to myself, exist as truly hermaphroditic and therefore, establish an impossible norm for humanity is equally absurd.

I think snails are hermaphrodites

 

[wabrams]

sheesh

Murder requires someone to die, or it not murder.
Rape requires someone to be sexually violated, or it not rape
Pedastry requires a child or it’s not pedastry…
Gay requires a divorce or its not gay…

You are joking arent you?

I’m not joking, but your saying that being gay requires “a divorce or its not gay;” now there’s the joke. I think you understand very well that is just one example.

 

[fix]

Digger71:

So, the truth is that queer bashing does not happen?

By bashing do you mean violence or that folks speak against the behavior? The two things are very different. No one here condones violence. Most condone speaking the truth.

That there is no anti-gay violence, and the Evil Homosexual Conspiracy invented the word ‘homophobia’ with no real-world experience of violence?

One example. Each time some one posts that homosexual inclination is objectively disordered someone will call it homophobia. What is homophobia? Is it when Catholics say homosexual acts are evil? Is it when Catholics say same sex couples should not be allowed to adopt?

I am genuinely shocked. But again, you prove my previous point to ElJay about the denial on these boards.

I could make the argument that persecution complexes are part of the homosexual culture and are another manifestation of a same sex attraction disorder.

 

[Digger71]

wabrams:

I’m not joking, but your saying that being gay requires “a divorce or its not gay;” now there’s the joke. I think you understand very well that is just one example.

You’re not joking?

Well, with rape, pedastry and murder the existance of a victim is mandatory, you simply do not have the crimes with out the victims. If you wish to equate homosexuality to any of these you have to demonstrate the ‘mandatory’ victim. Not just pick one random example applicable to some cases.

Where is the definitional victim. You know murderer and murdered, rapist and rapee?

 

[wabrams]

Digger71:

You’re not joking?

Well, with rape, pedastry and murder the existance of a victim is mandatory, you simply do not have the crimes with out the victims. If you wish to equate homosexuality to any of these you have to demonstrate the ‘mandatory’ victim. Not just pick one random example applicable to some cases.

Where is the definitional victim. You know murderer and murdered, rapist and rapee?

Nice try, but you are the one who tried to tie homosexuality to crime, not me. But there is no such thing as a victimless crime.

 

[Colm_O_Higgins]

Digger, are you being serious?

There are always at least two victims when sin occurs.

 

[Digger71]

fix:

I could make the argument that persecution complexes are part of the homosexual culture and are another manifestation of a same sex attraction disorder.

Yet more confirmatory evidence.

 

[BlindSheep]

Digger71:

When first best is taken and it’s a choice between second best and third best. Yes, second best will have to do. Taking the least bad option is fine by me.

I see. And are you referring to homes, or children? Clearly calling children “second best”, and therefore treating them like commodities, is also fine with you.

It would of course depend on circumstances, the child and the prospective parents. I would go for the best match.

Interesting. What sort of child, do you think, would be best “matched” with a homosexual couple?

I am actually interested to read it. I havent seen those studies so they would add to my knowledge.

Google it then, or use the search feature on these forums.

Mind reading? Back in the theatre, with the great Zoobon telling me what I have in my pocket.

What goes around, comes around.