Possible Soon to be ex-Catholic

[jurist12]

My difficulty with Catholic belief is not in the Sacraments but rather the concept of Justification. It would seem to me that any idea of “merit” take away from what Christ did on the Cross for us. Yes I know “initial Justification” is by Grace alone, that is not the issue, it’s what happens afterwards. It would seem that if we have to have “merit” even moved by Grace moving our will it still comes across as “works-righteousness”. In Romans 4:4 St. Paul says “Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly his faith is counted as rightteousness” if we have to do “good works” in order to stay Justified or to “merit” final Justification then it is no longer a gift but something God “owes” us. As of right now I see it as that we are Justified(declared righteous) by God by Faith in Christ and what he did for us. Thats why the Gospel is “Good News” while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. We are set free from sin and forgiven solely by Christ’s merits not our own wretched rags of righteousness. We do “Good Works” not in order to stay Justified and in a State of Grace. We do “Good Works” because we have been Justified (declared righteous). We do “Good Works” out of thankfulness and gratitude for what Christ has done for us. “Good Works” are the fruit and proof of having been saved and show that our faith is genuine. If I can believe this as a Catholic then I will stay Catholic. In Christ, jurist12

 

[Tinkerbell]

I hope you stay also. Don’t take the words of protestants to tell you what they think the Catholic Church believes. Read more Catholic material to find the truth. I will pray that you will be guided to the church Christ established 2000 years ago. God Bless you in your journey.

 

[Vincent]

jurist12:

My difficulty with Catholic belief is not in the Sacraments but rather the concept of Justification. It would seem to me that any idea of “merit” take away from what Christ did on the Cross for us.

I highly recommend Michael J. Pahls’s “Reversing Babel: A Calvinist Reading of the Tridentine Doctrine of Merit” (pdf or (http://tinyurl.com/4qe4a)).

It’s a refreshing perspective.

Jimmy Akin’s “Righteousness and Merit” might be helpful, as well.

 

[yallguys]

You can read the mentioned Newman works for free at newmanreader.org/

 

[PaulDupre]

edwinG:

The fact that the Roman Catholic church is without external mercy, claiming that all ( very minor exceptions) who dont belong will go to hell shows their lack of love; and faith in God’s wisdom.

Edwin, I am sorely disappointed that you would stoop to “THE BIG LIE”. You know full well that this is not Catholic teaching.

Here is a section of the Cathechism (one of many) that sheds light on this:

Wounds to unity

817 In fact, “in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame.” The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.

818 “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”

819 “Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth” are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.” Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”

Ecclesiasticus 20:26
The disposition of a liar is dishonourable, and his shame is ever with him.

Shame on you.
Paul

 

[MariaG]

posted by jurist12

We do “Good Works” out of thankfulness and gratitude for what Christ has done for us. “Good Works” are the fruit and proof of having been saved and show that our faith is genuine. If I can believe this as a Catholic then I will stay Catholic. In Christ, jurist12

I am probably not the best one to comment on this. I hope someone else comes along who can explain the finer points better, but as far as my understanding goes, there is nothing wrong with this line of thinking. I think it is just a little incomplete.
Each time we choose to do a “good work” we are once again renewing our faith and desire to follow Christ. The good works do not “naturally” flow from salvation, they are a choice to follow Christ each and every time. The works are the fruit because of the grace used to do them.

The “good works” are not just proof of our salvation, they are only there because for each and every “good work”, there is grace made available from God to be able to perform the work. All glory and honor goes to God for every “good work” because it was His grace that made it possible to begin with.

I will stand humbly corrected if anything said here is incorrect. Justification explanations can get into very exact terminology, which is not a strong point for me.

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

 

[Chesster]

jurist12:

My difficulty with Catholic belief is not in the Sacraments but rather the concept of Justification. It would seem to me that any idea of “merit” take away from what Christ did on the Cross for us. Yes I know “initial Justification” is by Grace alone, that is not the issue, it’s what happens afterwards. It would seem that if we have to have “merit” even moved by Grace moving our will it still comes across as “works-righteousness”. In Romans 4:4 St. Paul says “Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly his faith is counted as rightteousness” if we have to do “good works” in order to stay Justified or to “merit” final Justification then it is no longer a gift but something God “owes” us. As of right now I see it as that we are Justified(declared righteous) by God by Faith in Christ and what he did for us. Thats why the Gospel is “Good News” while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. We are set free from sin and forgiven solely by Christ’s merits not our own wretched rags of righteousness. We do “Good Works” not in order to stay Justified and in a State of Grace. We do “Good Works” because we have been Justified (declared righteous). We do “Good Works” out of thankfulness and gratitude for what Christ has done for us. “Good Works” are the fruit and proof of having been saved and show that our faith is genuine. If I can believe this as a Catholic then I will stay Catholic. In Christ, jurist12

You are misreading St. Paul. He is not talking about “good works” in that verse but “works of the law” meaning circumcision, animal sacrifices, dietary restrictions, etc., basically the ceremonial works of the Mosaic law. In fact St. Paul sets up no dichotomy between faith and “good works” in his epistle to the Romans. For St. Paul “faith” is not something that lacks “good works” it is “faith working through love”.

As for “merit”, it is clear from scripture that heaven is given as a reward for “good works” and a reward corresponds to true merit so there really is no problem with this.

BTW, being Justified is not simply declared righteous but made righteous.

I suggest that you read about justification as decreed by the Council of Trent.

 

[Gratias_Grace]

Hi jurist!

The protestants don’t know the catholic faith! That’s why they denie it’s truth!

If I were you, I would have read the “Surprised by thruth”- books. There protestants explain why they converted to the catholic Church. They did it because it is the Church Jesus Christ instituted, the only one.

amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0964261081/qid=1100382555/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-2956148-5317769?v=glance&s=books

amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1928832180/ref=pd_bxgy_text_1/102-2956148-5317769?v=glance&s=books&st=*

amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1928832598/qid=1100382555/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3/102-2956148-5317769?v=glance&s=books

Link to: There we stood, Here we stand (11 lLutherans Rediscover their catholic Roots):
amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0759613206/qid%3D1100382932/sr%3D11-1/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F1/102-2956148-5317769

Link to Prodigal Daughters:

amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0898707323/qid=1100383047/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-2956148-5317769?v=glance&s=books

Please remember that now you need Christ very much. Try to tell him in Church in front of the Tabernacle that you are confused because there are so many different dicetions who all call themselves christians.

If you have a catholic website that presents a dayly homily, that’s fine. If not, try Catholic Exchange. It’s exellent!

catholicexchange.com/

Link to prayers in particular sircumstances:

cptryon.org/prayer/special/index.html

**All my best wishes for you! **

G.G.

 

[TheresaS]

Many of my neices and nephews have left the faith for various reasons…none of the reasons stated were really good ones, just excuses because they feel they have been set free from the “authority of the church”. The book I have recommended to those that question the faith is “Rome, Sweet Rome” by Scott Hahn. His books are simply written and the concepts easy to grasp. He has written many fine books about his path to the true faith from evangelical ministry.

My best advice…don’t be one of those individuals who “shop” for a church. Pray…listen and you will “hear His voice in the silence!”

 

[Jehu13]

Hello Jurist,
First I will pray you stay and I will keep you in my prayers. THe second thing I am going to tell you is to Start reading some Catholic Books on the Subject.I would Recommend you go Dave Armstrongs Web page. Here is the Link

ic.net/~erasmus/RAZHOME.HTM

Now as for the Books that I would recommend. Not By faith Alone is a good book. It is published by Queenship publications

queenship.org/productdetails.cfm?PC=217

Here is the direct link to that book. I think that is the kind of stuff you might be looking for.
I would also recommend you get Dave Armstrongs book they are very good. I hope that helps you out. if not then just pm me and I will give you more titles.

 

[Exporter]

Edwin G. wrote,“The earth has many churches. Can anyone say this is against God’s will? Who has this wisdom? The fact that the Roman Catholic church is without external mercy, claiming that all ( very minor exceptions) who dont belong will go to hell shows their lack of love; and faith in God’s wisdom. His church has those who believe and belief is a gift and belief is in degrees. No one can set the bar on belief.
If you ignore what is in your heart, you will be the one who has to answer to Christ for your disbelief. Don’t let fear make decisions. Find the denominational church Christ wants you in”

Edwin G. is not Catholic. He doesn’t live in the U.S.A. His words are false. Your original post told us that you have shopped around, gotten mixed up and are trying to be a better Theologian than your Bishop or Cardinal Ratzinger (Vatican’s head of Doctrine of the Faith). Do you trust yourself or Cardinal Ratzinger? It’s your life…and death.

 

[beng]

jurist12:

I also have been reading St. Paul’s Epistles seriously and even looking up the words in the original Greek. So far I find myself agreeing with the Protestant view on Justification. I am at the poiint wher I toss and turn all night, am restless, I only sleep enough to get rest and then I hit the books again. This is really an important issue I have to to settle. Can any of you give me some meaty Catholic Theology beyond the Catechism or “pop Catholic Apologetics”? Because as of now the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod looks better for me to go to. In Christ, jurist12

It’s commendable that you are a person who like to read books to learn.

For seeing how Catholic Justification is more inline with St Paul do buy “Not by Faith Alone” by Robert Sungenis. “Salvation Controversy” by Jimmy Akin is very good to as someone else suggested but Sungenis’ book is more in-depth and go into detail.

 

[jurist12]

Ok tell me if I am wrong on this. 1.The Catholic view on Justification is this: By unmerited Grace God Justifies us through Faith, which is itself a gift of God by Grace2. Justification means that God Declares us righteouss even though we are not actually so BUT at the same time God declares us righteous He also makes us actually righteous by that same declaration, in other words the Forensic declaration and the Ontological event are simultaneous and coextensive. Sins are not just covered up but actually removed from us.
3. As a result of point # 2 we receive Sanctifying Grace which enables us to do those things pleasing to God out of genuine love and gratitude to God for what He has done for us in Christ.
4. The Catholic Gospel is just as simple if not simpler than the Protestant Evangelical message and satisfies the heart and mind. Catholic message; Repent, Believe, be Baptised for the forgiveness of sins. And as long as we have Faith and love of God and others and live a Sacramental life then we are truly saved.

Are my four points reflective of Catholic belief as far as the essential basics as far as Justification is concerned? If not please clarify. Thank You

 

[beng]

jurist12:

Ok tell me if I am wrong on this. 1.The Catholic view on Justification is this: By unmerited Grace God Justifies us through Faith, which is itself a gift of God by Grace

Correct

1. Justification means that God Declares us righteouss even though we are not actually so BUT at the same time God declares us righteous He also makes us actually righteous by that same declaration, in other words the Forensic declaration and the Ontological event are simultaneous and coextensive. Sins are not just covered up but actually removed from us.

INCORRECT. When we are justified, God declared us righteous BECAUSE WE ARE RIGHTEOUS. Everything that is properly call sin is ERADICATED from us. We are innerly transform.

This is differnet than Protestant who think that we are still sinner but only declared righteous. That si why Luther said, “Simul Iustus Et Peccator”. which means, “At the same time justified but also a sinner”.

Catholic justification is more profound, personal and trqansformative than Protestant’s legal justification.

1. As a result of point # 2 we receive Sanctifying Grace which enables us to do those things pleasing to God out of genuine love and gratitude to God for what He has done for us in Christ.

Correct.

1. The Catholic Gospel is just as simple if not simpler than the Protestant Evangelical message and satisfies the heart and mind. Catholic message; Repent, Believe, be Baptised for the forgiveness of sins. And as long as we have Faith and love of God and others and live a Sacramental life then we are truly saved.

In a very broad sense, the above is not incorrect.

Are my four points reflective of Catholic belief as far as the essential basics as far as Justification is concerned? If not please clarify. Thank You

Again I would like to suggest you to read Sungenis “Not by Faith Alone”. A few bucks for information that enable you to make a good decision regarding your eternal life.

 

[lindalou725]

Dear Possible…ex-Catholic,

Log onto www.catholic tradition.org/true-church.htm
Fr. Damen’s address to Protestants presents a very compelling witness of the truth of the Catholic faith. So much so, that his talk brought hundreds into the faith. Look and see for yourself. I did. It won’t take up as much time as ONE chapter in any of the other books that were suggested for you to read.

It’s a good start.:yup:
Lindalou

 

[mark_a]

Judging by the number of times you have switched oars, you are definitely searching for something. Keep asking questions and be open to the truth.

Also, ask yourself why many non-Catholics are more concerned with leading you in any direction, as long as it’s away from the Catholic Church, than they are about leading you to their particular church. Many of these churches define themselves by preaching “why the Catholic Church is wrong”.

Best wishes for you and your seach.

 

[Katholikos]

To become a Protestant, one must accept Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, and Sola Gratia as foundational doctrines.

The New Testament was written by Catholics – Apostles who were the leaders of the early Church and disciples of the Apostles. The NT came out of the Church, not vice versa.

As a Protestant, I found the doctrine of Sola Scriptura untenable. It eventually led me to atheism. This was at a time when I despised the Catholic Church and in my ignorance dismissed it without examing the evidence. And it was long before I knew that the Church produced the Bible.

The Scriptures can have only one meaning, and that is the meaning that the Sacred Authors meant to convey to their readers at the time they were writing. Since they were leaders in the Catholic Church, and they were teaching before, during, and after they had written, they explained what they meant to the Church. They didn’t teach one thing and write another. If there were any questions, they were there in person to answer them. So you can be sure that the Church knows what the NT means – and that come-lately Protestant churches do not. The Catholic Church does not teach salvation by faith alone.

The doctrine of justification by faith alone was invented by Martin Luther. "His ‘thunderbolt’ idea that faith alone was sufficient for salvation came, in his own words, as ‘knowledge the Holy Spirit gave me on the privy in the tower’ " Triumph, The Power and the Glory of the Catholic Church, A 2,000-year History, by H.W. Crocker III, p. 237. It was not taught by Christ and the Apostles.

Triumph is excellent reading – the author, an expert on the history of the Civil War, is a recent and enthusiastic convert to the Catholic Church.

amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0761529241?v=glance

Read Logic and the Foundations of Protestantism by Brian W. Harrison at www.chnetwork.org. At the home page, click on “conversion stories” – then scroll down to Harrison’s name. The Coming Home Network recently changed the format on their website, and Harrison’s article now is a little hard to read. But you’ll find it well worth your time.

Do not act in haste. You have a lot of studying to do before you decide. Your immortal soul is at stake.

God be with you on your journey.

Jay Damien

 

[Bob_Baran]

A good antidote to the stuff you have read so far is Karl Keating’s Catholicism and Fundamentalism. It will probably answer most of your questions.

Also, you might want to read *Triumph, The Power and the Glory of the Catholic Church, A 2,000 Year History *by Harry W. Crocker III. The book does through an objective examination of the Catholic Church and speaks of many of the issues you mentioned.

 

[Convert97]

First, don’t listen to Edwin G. Not only is he wrong on external mercy, he is wrong that doubt is a sin. If you are exploring your doubts you are searching for the Truth that is Jesus Christ and you are on your way to God. Also, God doesn’t want us going to the denomination of our choice. He wants us to be one as He and the father are one. He built his Church on the Rock of Peter and said the gates of hell will never prevail against it. So, take those doubts and see what the Apostolic Church teaches about them. If the Catechism won’t do for you, try Rome Sweet Home by Scott Hahn. He comes to agree with the Catholic teaching that salvation comes through Grace and then overcomes his doubts and joins the Catholic Church. Our prayers are with you.

 

[Vincent]

beng:

INCORRECT. When we are justified, God declared us righteous BECAUSE WE ARE RIGHTEOUS. Everything that is properly call sin is ERADICATED from us. We are innerly transform.

I don’t think there’s a disagreement between you and Jurist12 on this point. He’s basically saying the same thing you’re saying. Jimmy Akin’s explanation sounds close, in fact:

God’s word is efficacious; it brings about what it says. So when God declares us righteous, we actually become righteous: we have our guilt taken away and our purity before God restored. This is true even if the righteousness that is being restored is the original righteousness which Adam lost for the whole human race.

So a Catholic need have no problems with the forensic/declaratory aspects of justification. God does indeed declare us righteous, and that is nothing with which a Catholic needs to quarrel.

Greg Krehbiel has other thoughts on this here.