Possible Soon to be ex-Catholic

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beng:
Again I would like to suggest you to read Sungenis “Not by Faith Alone”. A few bucks for information that enable you to make a good decision regarding your eternal life.
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I second that! 🙂 I have not read Sungenis book Not by Faith alone. But if it is half as good as “---- Sripture alone”, it is good. Sungenis “Not by scripture alone” is a VERY good book that plows into the the protestant doctrine of “Sola Scriptura”.

With all respect; I also want to remind you about that it is not wise to leave the catholic Church. If you don’t understand your faith, you HAVE TO try to do your best to understand it, look at CCC 671,675-676, 981-983, 2089, 858-865, 831, 846.

"Lord Jesus,
I ask you to open my eyes
as you did with the blind man,
so that I may really see.
Tune my ears
as you did with the man who was deaf and dumb,
so that I may really hear
what you are saying to me.
May the many experiences of my senses
remind me to be aware of others
and of all that is around me.
May all that I experience
lead me closer to you. Amen.

Links to the two books, so you can look inside them. (You yourself decide were you want to buy it/them):

amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1579180086/qid=1100398737/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-2956148-5317769?v=glance&s=books

amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1579180558/ref=pd_bxgy_text_1/102-2956148-5317769?v=glance&s=books&st=*

Must the Holy Spirit guide you!

Blessings!

G.Grace
 
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Vincent:
I don’t think there’s a disagreement between you and Jurist12 on this point. He’s basically saying the same thing you’re saying. Jimmy Akin’s explanation sounds close, in fact:

Greg Krehbiel has other thoughts on this here.
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My objection to the statement is this:

2. Justification means that God Declares us righteouss even though we are not actually so

That’s more inline with Luther than anything Catholic.
 
Christ makes us rightious with his sacrifice. He does not just declare us rightious. He makes us rightious.
 
Please allow me to share my story with you…Maybe it will help.
Several years ago…probably about six or seven years…I found myself in much the same situation as you…I had to decide whether to return to the Lutheran Church (which I had been attending again for a several months), or to remain in the Roman Cathoic Church. I was about to recieve a Master of Arts in Religion and needed to decide know where God wanted me to serve.
So…I spent many sleepless nights and anxious days, worrying over this problem. It consummed me.
I finally decided to go pray in a Catholic church near where I was working at the time. I was unaware that they were having a Forty Hour weekend.
When I walked into the church, and saw HIM there, exposed on the altar, I heard these words…“Where have you been? I’ve been waiting for you”…Needless to say, my decision was made right then and there.
About two or three years ago I had to decide whether or not to follow my husband into an Evangelical Church of Christ…I did for a while, but then I was remeinded of the experience I just related to you…and I knew that my heart was Catholic, and would always remain so. He was waitng there for me…
Pray before the Blessed Sacrament, and you will find the strength and guidance you need.
Blessings,
Sandy…Catholic Heart
 
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beng:
My objection to the statement is this:

2. Justification means that God Declares us righteouss even though we are not actually so
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The perceived difficulty in jurist12’s statement is clarified in the second half of his sentence: “BUT at the same time God declares us righteous He also makes us actually righteous by that same declaration.”

To use Trent’s terms (from Romans 4:5), God justifies the “impious”. As the term implies, the “impious” aren’t actually righteous; they aren’t justified yet. The moment God justifies the “impious” (and the declaration and the change occur at exactly the same time), they are no longer “impious”.

That’s my sympathetic reading of jurist12’s statement.
 
If my last post is how Catholics can look at Justification then I have no problems with the Catholic view. This is/was a major issue for me, maybe the biggest one. I do have other questions, however this one was the major hurdle. In Christ, jurist12
 
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jurist12:
If my last post is how Catholics can look at Justification then I have no problems with the Catholic view. This is/was a major issue for me, maybe the biggest one. I do have other questions, however this one was the major hurdle. In Christ, jurist12
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What did you think the Catholic Church taught?
 
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jurist12:
If my last post is how Catholics can look at Justification then I have no problems with the Catholic view. This is/was a major issue for me, maybe the biggest one. I do have other questions, however this one was the major hurdle. In Christ, jurist12
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Is your hurdle because Catholic required work? And “work” is a dirty word? Because it seems that salvation is an effort?

First of all, Roman 3:28 said that we are justified by faith apart from works of law. This does not mean faith alone. Faith can be coupled with love (Gal 5:6) and hope (1Cor 13:13) just not works of law.

Second of all, “For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.” - Rom 2:13. Is Paul being contradictory here? No. Paul used the word “work” interchangebly for:
  1. Obligatory work. I do the job you’re obligated to pay me
  2. Work through grace. I do the job because I love you and you love me.
No:1 is what the Pharisee maintain. No 2 is the one God wants. To know more about this read Sungenis’s Not By Faith Alone.

Thirdly, if Protestant can believe that faith itself is from God, then why can’t Catholic believe that work can also from God? Catholic does not teach that people without God can do their good work (praying, observing Mass, confession etc).

Fourthly, Protestant notion of faith is “work” in the strictest sense. “Confessing with your mouth that Jesus is your Lord and Saviour” or “believing that Jesus is your Lord and Saviour”. First is clearly work, second is an intellectual assent. Something that makes babies and mentally incapacitatred people unable to do. **Thus, that is a gospel of salvation by work that is preach by Protestant
**.
 
Check out the website www.biblechristiansociety.com. They offer free CDs and tape and there is one on the one true church concept of Catholicism that is excellent. Also, I suggest calling the Catholic Answers Apologetics line and talking to an expert. I’m sorry that I don’t have their phone number but you can probably get it at their website www.catholic.com.

Please don’t make a rash decision about leaving the Catholic church again. We would hate to lose you! You are in my prayers. God bless you!
 
Forget all the “esoteric” justification/salvation stuff. The most amazing thing, and perhaps the most telling, is that you are seriously considering leaving Christ in the Eucharist. You don’t believe in the Real Presence? Transubstantiation?

I’ve only skimmed this thread, but I haven’t seen a mention of this. I suggest you think long and hard about rejecting this precious Sacrament.

But, I understand the turmoil. It’s not easy for me or any of us. Hang in there…
 
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montanaman:
Forget all the “esoteric” justification/salvation stuff. The most amazing thing, and perhaps the most telling, is that you are seriously considering leaving Christ in the Eucharist. You don’t believe in the Real Presence? Transubstantiation?

I’ve only skimmed this thread, but I haven’t seen a mention of this. I suggest you think long and hard about rejecting this precious Sacrament.

But, I understand the turmoil. It’s not easy for me or any of us. Hang in there…
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Jurist is thinking of going to the Luther church.
 
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jurist12:
Ok tell me if I am wrong on this. 1.The Catholic view on Justification is this: By unmerited Grace God Justifies us through Faith, which is itself a gift of God by Grace2. Justification means that God Declares us righteouss even though we are not actually so BUT at the same time God declares us righteous He also makes us actually righteous by that same declaration, in other words the Forensic declaration and the Ontological event are simultaneous and coextensive. Sins are not just covered up but actually removed from us.
3. As a result of point # 2 we receive Sanctifying Grace which enables us to do those things pleasing to God out of genuine love and gratitude to God for what He has done for us in Christ.
4. The Catholic Gospel is just as simple if not simpler than the Protestant Evangelical message and satisfies the heart and mind. Catholic message; Repent, Believe, be Baptised for the forgiveness of sins. And as long as we have Faith and love of God and others and live a Sacramental life then we are truly saved.

Are my four points reflective of Catholic belief as far as the essential basics as far as Justification is concerned? If not please clarify. Thank You
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Jurist12,

I suggest you do a Scripture exercise. Go through the Scripture and identify every verse that talks about judgment. Then identify the criteria discussed regarding the judgment. In every case you will find that the criteria established are deeds ie. works. In no case is the criteria established as faith.

A person with faith, but who is in a state of sin, will not go to Heaven. I could have faith, but be an unrepentant adulter. If I die unrepentant, my faith will not save me. Why? Because my sin makes me an enemy of God even though I believe in God. God will not allow us to mock Him by claiming that we will be saved in spite of our continued sinfulness simply because we “believe” in Him.

Remember that God is immutable. He nor His Law change. Keeping this in mind, you might start your Scripture exercise with Ezek 18. Read the whole chapter, but pay particular attention to verses 21-29.
 
I really appreciate your struggles. I am an Evangelical and share the same views that you do concerning forensic justification. I assum that your studies in the Greek New Testament led you to this conclusion. I encourage you to continue to study from the best of both Roman Catholic arguments and Protestant arguments. There is no use, however, in reading those who unfairly treat the other side (whichever side they may hold). The Lord honors honest struggles.

I think that you need to understand that stuggles like these should not be solved overnight. Canned and overly polemical apologetics do not help anything. Begin to try to understand that BOTH sides think that they are right. BOTH sides believe that they are rooted in history and will choose those that agree with them to make their case. In fact, both side will interpret the Fathers differently (I guess we need someone to interpret the Church!!).

An Evangelical theology that program that I am invlolved in that I would recommend it found at www.thetheologyprogram.com. It starts with NO ASSUMPTIONS concerning truth and the way we come to know truth, and builds from there. There is a seminary course on Sorteriology that helps to understand where both sides come from.
If you don’t go there, what do I suggest? Keep reading your Greek New Testament. That is why I remain committed to the Evangelical understanding of justification.

I would be for than happy to email back and forth with you about this. Just let me know. My email is michaelp@stonebriar.org. (And NO, I am not going to try to get to you become a part of my denomination).

Michael
 
I’d second **Catholic Heart’**s recommendation. It was a conversion experience during Adoration before the Blessed Sacrament that brought me back to the Catholic Church (where I had been lukewarm, at best) and began living my life more fully through Christ.
 
There is only one book that you need on the subject. Forget all the (what did you call it? light?) apologetics books suggested.

“Symbolism” by Johann Adam Mohler is a veritable encyclopedia with chapters on Justification from Calvinist, Lutheran and Catholic perspectives. Though it was written a long time ago (1800s) by a Catholic priest who belonged to the liberal Tubingen school, the Catholic Encyclopedia (1913) gives it no faint praise "No better account of this remarkable (though now largely obsolete) system has been drawn out than Möhler’s in his “Symbolism or Doctrinal Differences.” newadvent.org/cathen/03198a.htm

Thankfully Crossroads is still publishing it and it can be found at amazon.com or alibris.com or abebooks.com

For biblical exegesis on the passages you are refering too, consult the works of Raymond Brown or Donald Senior.

Adam
 
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yallguys:
The bible is a Catholic book. It was given to the Catholic Church. If you read anything in the bible that disagrees with the Catholic Church you are reading it in the wrong way. Yes I think I took this almost word for word from an EWTN commercial, but this has been my experience long before I started listening to EWTN.
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And therein is where Rome went wrong

Paul writes Speciffically too the Roman Church
~{Romans 3:1}~
Hey Guys listen up
I got a question for you
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1 What advantage then hath the Jew?
or what profit is there of circumcision?
Now Paul answers
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2 Much every way: chiefly,
because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
But they didn’t beleive and they hated him,
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3 For what if some did not believe?
shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect???
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According too Paul
The Jews = Circumsision have the advantage over the Roman Church in every way,
But the #1 reason
because it was to them he committed the Oracles of God
Not to the Roman Church

now as too what we call the new testament
Rome might have some say there
 
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Buzzard:
And therein is where Rome went wrong

Paul writes Speciffically too the Roman Church

According too Paul
The Jews = Circumsision have the advantage over the Roman Church in every way,
But the #1 reason
because it was to them he committed the Oracles of God
Not to the Roman Church

now as too what we call the new testament
Rome might have some say there
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What are you trying to say here? Are saying that the Catholic Church had no authority to say what was the canon of the Old Testament?

If you say that you are wrong. The Jews never declared what the scriptures were until after Christ. The Hebrew scriiptures, which you protestants follow, is incomplete. The Jewish holiday Hannukah is founded on the writings of Maccabees. It is the celebration of the victory of the Maccabees over the Greeks.

The Christians followed the LXX from the first century. That is why about 80% of the about 250 references to the old testament in the new testament are from the LXX. They match up perfectly with the LXX, not with the Hebrew Scriptures. The LXX included the deuterocanonicals.

You can also see early church fathers like Justin and Irenaeus defending the LXX.
 
The Marines have a saying: “semper fi” … “always faithful.”

How do Marines express this faith to each other? Imagine being in the heat of battle, your friends are pinned down by a machine gun nest and you have the angle that will take those enemy guns out. Do you help them and destroy your enemy? Or do you shout “I really BELIEVE we should be there for each other!” And then do nothing in particular?

If a married man cheats on his wife, we say he is “unfaithful.” Is it possible for him to act out his faithlessness and yet still claim to be “faithful” to his wife by saying, “Honey, I cheated on you, but I always BELIEVED in us!”?

In the story of the prodigal son, the father welcomed the wayward son but could only do so based on the son’s desires to seek reunion and to act on this desire by returning. The son never lost his sonship with his father. There was nothing he could do to remove that. But he could not be welcomed back home until he performed the action of returning based on his belief his father would take him in.

Just as in the above examples, we as Catholics are united to God’s will when we act as His soldiers (the Church Militant), his faithful bride (the Church in Revelations), and his children – which is what we become in baptism.

It is also important to understand exactly what sin is. Sin is a lack. Light is to good as dark is to sin. To create sin, we have to chose the path of less faith of our own free will. Remember God does not create sin because He is all good. Sin technically is not a creation at all because God created all that is. Sin is a perversion of God’s creation – a bubble caused by all of our desires, fears, doubts, misgivings, selfishness.

When we sin, we turn away from the Light and towards the Dark. So, conversely, when we chose to do good, we are turning back towards the Light. In this process, do we create the Light? Obviously no – the Light is 100% from God. But in the context of daily life, doing good brings that Light to others. Do we then say that we made the Light they see? Again, no. This would be boasting. Sin comes from us but all the good we do is God acting through us. The choice comes when we decide whether or not we are going to unite ourselves to His Divine Will…

and blow up that machine gun nest… 😃

goofball apologetics ho!
 
Buzzard, I only speak three languages you know. Could you please stick to intelligible earth speak?
 
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jimmy:
What are you trying to say here? Are saying that the Catholic Church had no authority to say what was the canon of the Old Testament?

If you say that you are wrong. The Jews never declared what the scriptures were until after Christ. The Hebrew scriiptures, which you protestants follow, is incomplete. The Jewish holiday Hannukah is founded on the writings of Maccabees. It is the celebration of the victory of the Maccabees over the Greeks.

The Christians followed the LXX from the first century. That is why about 80% of the about 250 references to the old testament in the new testament are from the LXX. They match up perfectly with the LXX, not with the Hebrew Scriptures. The LXX included the deuterocanonicals.

You can also see early church fathers like Justin and Irenaeus defending the LXX.
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Not to mention the fact that what books were in your cannon depended largely on what type of Jew you were. Pharisees and Sadducees and Essenes had differing opinions as to which books were inspired – much like you have with the many different competing Protestant branches today. Remember, Luther took11 books from the Bible and put them in the back in the apendix with explanations saying why he thought they were not truly inspired.

Assuming, of course that you were trying to make some sort of point, Buzzard, I am not sure. :hmmm:
 
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