Possible Soon to be ex-Catholic

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R.C. Sproul and Norman Geisler? Sproul is a (hyper-)Calvinist, Geisler an Arminian – their views on justification are close to being diametrical opposites. No wonder you’re losing sleep, if that’s where you’ve been seeking a clear and unambiguous answer.

Seriously, though: Your account of your spiritual search strikes a chord of familiarity with me. Struggling with nearly everybody’s non-issues (like justification) can be lonely and frustrating work, and there must be times when you feel ready to give anything, literally anything, for the company of kindred minds, and that is what a denomination is – “a voluntary association of like-hearted and like-minded individuals, who are united on the basis of common beliefs…” (Sidney E. Mead’s definition). On the Protestant view, God redeems and calls individuals out of a lost world and they then “join a church”.

Real Church, however, is the heart placed by God in the midst of a world He has not given up for lost. She pumps life to the farthest capillaries, even those practically blocked by sin and error. You don’t hear the call and then join; it’s only because you are in some sense joined already that you are alive to the call in the first place. Nor do you quit and go someplace else; there isn’t anyplace else. You can work to unblock the vessel and let the life flow through, or not.

Pure grace, grace more free and sovereign and unmerited than anything Protestant theology can imagine, brought you back to God’s real Church. If you broke faith a second time, would He go after you again? And if He did, would you be too embarrassed to return again? Nothing in the world is worth risking that for. Theological answers and a like-minded group to belong to are worthless to you unless God gives you Himself. He paid an incredible price in order to do so, in the real Church, in the Blessed Sacrament. Don’t turn your back on Him.Peace,
vienna
 
THIS IS SO EASY!

GET WISDOM at the COST OF ALL YOU OWN!

PROV 8:13 (The fear of the LORD is to hate evil;) Pride, arrogance, the evil way, and the perverse mouth I hate.

AMOS 5:15 Hate evil and love good, and let justice prevail at the gate; Then it may be that the LORD, the God of hosts, will have pity on the remnant of Joseph.

PROV 9:10 The beginning of wisdom is the fear of the LORD, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

PROV 10:27 The fear of the LORD prolongs life, but the years of the wicked are brief.

PROV 14:27 The fear of the LORD is a fountain of life, that a man may avoid the snares of death.

PROV 15:33 The fear of the LORD is training for wisdom, and humility goes before honors.

HUMILITY CAN BE TAUGHT, SO CAN GREAT FEAR! And, and, and, and, what if there IS NOTHING TO REACH OUT FOR, to HOLD ONTO??? :eek:
 
Buzzard you misquoted the bible. Romans 3:1-3 says: “Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision? 2 Much in every way. To begin with, the Jews are entrusted with the oracles of God. 3 What if some were unfaithful Does their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God?”

Where did you get "Shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

This just echos what Paul has said before when he said that even though WE are unfaithfull, God is faithfull. He could not be anything else.

You need a better translation. Mine is from the Catholic RSV.

That (your translation) sounds like GOD has faith, and how could anything OF GOD have no effect? WE have faith IN GOD. :whacky:
 
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jurist12:
Let me start by saying that I was Baptised and Confirmed a Catholic. Please bear with me while I state what I have to say. By the time I got to college I was for all practical purposes an ambivalent Christian, I beleived God existed but thats about it. While in college I made friends with some “Born Again” Christians and listened to what they had to say. Needless to say that I had a :“Born Again” experience myself. I started attending an Assembly of God Church while in college. After graduation I ran into an old High School friend who was a member of a Reformed(Calvinist) Baptist Church. I started going there and I read a lot of Reformed Theology plus some Patristics. I became convinced that Baptist belief was not quite right when it came to Sacraments and some other things like liturgy. I then joined the Episcopal Church but after a while I got tired of the liberalism there. I relocated and found the Reformed Episcopal Church and it was Liturgical, Conservative and very Pro-Life. I moved back home and began reading some Catholic Apologetics and as there was no REC Church here I began attending a Catholic Church but no Communion as I was not Catholic at the time. Last May I figured why not? I asked the Priest, explained my situation and he told me all I need do is go to Confession and I could receive Comminion as a Catholic, so I became a “Revert”. Last summer I told my best friend what happened and he being a born and raised Evangelical Protestant tried changing my mind, I listened but said give me something convincing then. He gave me some easily refuted Evangelical Apologetics Lite. I asked him last month “haven’t you got anything more substantial?” He gave me some material by R.C. Sproul and Norm Geisler to read. I also have been reading “The Book of Concord” the Lutheran source of their theology. Now I don’t know if I did the right thing by reverting. I also have been reading St. Paul’s Epistles seriously and even looking up the words in the original Greek. So far I find myself agreeing with the Protestant view on Justification. I am at the poiint wher I toss and turn all night, am restless, I only sleep enough to get rest and then I hit the books again. This is really an important issue I have to to settle. Can any of you give me some meaty Catholic Theology beyond the Catechism or “pop Catholic Apologetics”? Because as of now the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod looks better for me to go to. In Christ, jurist12
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I think you have to ask yourself which is the true Church that Jesus found 2,000 years ago? Any other church has a beginning that is hundreds of years old accept for the Catholic Church. It was founded by Jesus, given to Peter and that succession continues today through our current Pope JP II. When other faiths call themselves “protestant” what are they “protesting” against if there is only one true Church? Go into a Catholic Church at some quiet point during the day and kneel before the Blessed Sacrament. Ask the Lord to reveal Himself to you and wait quietly for His reply. If Jesus could enter the world as a small child, die on the cross, and resurrect Himself can He not take on the form of bread to personally unite Himself with each one of us? That is the depth of His love and only in the Catholic Church do we believe in the true presence. You are like a child just beginning to walk, do not surround yourself with people who do not understand our faith and wish to knock you down. Find a good priest and receive instructions.
 
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Buzzard:
Paul writes Speciffically too the Roman Church
According too Paul
The Jews = Circumsision have the advantage over the Roman Church in every way,
…
because it was to them he committed the Oracles of God
Not to the Roman Church
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Paul’s letter to the Romans was written to Christians in Rome, the Church of Rome or Roman Church, if you like. Your citation from Romans 3:1-3 is part of Paul’s review the situation of the humanity without Jesus Christ that runs from Romans 1:18-3:20.

In Romans 3:1-3, Paul was not contrasting the Jews with “the Roman Church”; he was contrasting the Jews, who received “the Oracles of God” (the Law and the prophets), with “Greeks”, i.e., “Gentiles who have not the law” (2:14)

That Paul was not referring to “the Roman Church” but to Gentiles (Greeks) is clear from the verses that immediately precede Rom 3:1-3 and those verses that immediately follow:

Romans 2:9-11:
9There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11For God shows no partiality.

Romans 3:9:
9What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all; for I have already charged that all men, both Jews and Greeks, are under the power of sin.
 
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lindalou725:
Buzzard you misquoted the bible. Romans 3:1-3 says: “Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision? 2 Much in every way. To begin with, the Jews are entrusted with the oracles of God. 3 What if some were unfaithful Does their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God?”

Where did you get "Shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

This just echos what Paul has said before when he said that even though WE are unfaithfull, God is faithfull. He could not be anything else.

You need a better translation. Mine is from the Catholic RSV.

That (your translation) sounds like GOD has faith, and how could anything OF GOD have no effect? WE have faith IN GOD. :whacky:
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Douay-Rheims Bible
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1 What advantage then hath the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision?
2 Much every way. First indeed, because the words of God were committed to them.
3 For what if some of them have not believed?
shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid. Naauugggggggghhhhhh, I don’t need another bible
this one is good enough
 
color by Buzz
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lindalou725:
Buzzard you misquoted the bible. Romans 3:1-3 says: “Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision? 2 Much in every way. To begin with, the Jews are entrusted with the oracles of God. 3 What if some were unfaithful Does their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God?”

Where did you get "Shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

This just echos what Paul has said before when he said that even though WE are unfaithfull, God is faithfull. He could not be anything else.

You need a better translation. Mine is from the Catholic RSV.

That (your translation) sounds like GOD has faith, and how could anything OF GOD have no effect? WE have faith IN GOD. :whacky:
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Douay-Rheims Bible
1 What advantage then hath the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision?
2 Much every way. First indeed, because the words of God were committed to them.
3 For what if some of them have not believed?
shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid.
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Get your hands on the conversion of Scott Hahn CD or better yet his book “THE LAMBS SUPPER”…The Mass as Heaven on Earth…you will be longing to go to mass more than anything!
 
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jimmy:
This is not Roman Catholic doctrine. The Catholic Church does not teach that everyone outside the church is going to Hell. Your statement shows a lack of knowledge. I reccomend the catechism to read.
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Hi Jimmy,
If you re-read my post , you will see that I did not say that everyone outside the catholic church will go to hell.
Mind you, I dont believe in your purgatory: as the place of learning and correction on your death to this earth is a place called hell. After your resurrection, all are resurrected, when Christ returns, the rapture to keep you from the melting heavens and earth, you are judged and either go to the Kindgom of God or to the Lake of Fire.
Christ be with you
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG
 
J.R. said:
I couldn’t disagree more with edwinG. This is a person speaking out of ignorance. Read the Catholic Church document *Dominus Jesus *vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html Continue seeking truth. It will show itself to you and the deposit of that truth is the Catholic Church. God Bless.
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Hi JR,
This is not a person speaking out of ignorance. This is a person speaking with a close and daily communion with Jesus through the Holy Spirit.
I trust that one day you too will follow the catholic teaching and live to do His will as expressed through the Holy Spirit as He passes on what He hears from Jesus.
Christ be with you
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG
 
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edwinG:
Hi Jimmy,
If you re-read my post , you will see that I did not say that everyone outside the catholic church will go to hell.
Mind you, I dont believe in your purgatory: as the place of learning and correction on your death to this earth is a place called hell. After your resurrection, all are resurrected, when Christ returns, the rapture to keep you from the melting heavens and earth, you are judged and either go to the Kindgom of God or to the Lake of Fire.
Christ be with you
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG
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What is the point of learning and being corrected, if the place where it is supposed to take place is Hell, where the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched ?

“Correction” assumes that something can be “corrected”, that is, made better… The damned in hell can no longer be “made better”, my friend. It is a place of eternal punishment, not correction.

Gerry 🙂
 
Jurist

I have had very similar life experiences as you. I converted from Catholic to non denominational to Methodist to Lutheran Church Missouri Synod and now finally I am Catholic.

I would encourage you to read these two books, (for starters).

Crossing the Tiber by Steven K. Ray
On Whose Authority by Mark Shea

I can understand the confusion you are going through. I would ask you to step back and look at the journey you’ve been on thus far from a different perspective. You seem to be going from one authority to another to another… each one proclaiming what they profess to be the “truth”. I think you should re-direct the focus of your search. Look for where Christ left His authority.

Don’t look for your church. Look for Christ’s Church, then worship Him there.
 
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All4lifetoo:
St. Paul does. One body, and one Spirit; as you are called in one hope of your calling. One Lord, one faith, one baptism. (Eph. 4:4-5). The many churches that exist do not have the same faith.** Since there is only one faith** it must be against God’s will that there are many churches.

Jesus did not tell Peter that He (Jesus) was going to build His Churches (plural) but that He (Jesus) was going to build His Church (singular). see Matt. 16:18. The new testament is full of witness that there is to be one, united Church.
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Hi All4lifetoo,
I agree completely with you. One church in Jesus, and this is not a denominational issue.
This is your wisdom, the part in bold. That one faith can not be in many denominations. Listen to me please. The Holy Spirit lives in me and leads me daily. I do my utmost to do Christ’s will expressed to me by the Holy Spirit. If you persist in the stance that only in the catholic church can you find salvation then you are completely wrong, to the nth degree. Christ himself tells me you are wrong because here I am and not a member of the catholic church, but Christ lives in me, and actively.
Please don’t preach what the Church teaches until you learn what the Church teaches. Your above claim is totally false. It is true that outside the Church there is no salvation, but one must understand what the Church means by this statement. One can learn what she means by reading her Catechism.
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If the catholic church means something else could you please explain it to me. I imagine your catechism is quite a long work and my time is short. I also imagine that your catechism teaches Mary and the Pope which disagrees with me so I can find no reason to invest my time in a book in which I am in disagreement with.
Christ be with youhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
walk in love
edwinG
 
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edwinG:
Hi Jimmy,
If you re-read my post , you will see that I did not say that everyone outside the catholic church will go to hell.
Mind you, I dont believe in your purgatory: as the place of learning and correction on your death to this earth is a place called hell. After your resurrection, all are resurrected, when Christ returns, the rapture to keep you from the melting heavens and earth, you are judged and either go to the Kindgom of God or to the Lake of Fire.
Christ be with you
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG
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Hell is not a place of correction and cleansing. If you go to Hell, you will never leave Hell, therefore it is not a place of correction. Purgatory is there whether you believe in it or not. That is the place of correction and cleansing. Actually I should not say place because that is not defined but it is there.
 
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PaulDupre:
Edwin, I am sorely disappointed that you would stoop to “THE BIG LIE”. You know full well that this is not Catholic teaching.

Here is a section of the Cathechism (one of many) that sheds light on this:

Shame on you.
Paul
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Hi PaulDupre,
I am sorry to have disappointed you. I am taken back at your claim of my stooping to the BIG LIE.
I was hoping that this post would have your quotes from the catechism so I could ask you a couple of questions about the segments quoted. Alas alack they did not appear.
It is easy for me to stoop to this Big Lie because catholics mention it so much. See my previous reply asking for more detail, but All4lifetoo made the same quote, no salvation outside the catholic church, but his claim is that I dont understand it. You feel that I do and choose to ignore it.
So now I ask the two of you. Can you tell me what the catholic church means when it says there is no salvation outside the catholic church.
Obviously these are not my words , but words I have learnt here.

I would be overjoyed to hear the catholic church proclaim Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.”

I will ask you for a straight answer. Do you believe Romans 10:9. or do you have to add to it.

I have followed the threads back and found your post.
Can you please explain the meaning of these two portions.
the end of 818 " and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."
819" and in themselves calls to “Catholic unity”
Christ be with you
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG
 
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Exporter:
Edwin G. wrote,“The earth has many churches. Can anyone say this is against God’s will? Who has this wisdom? The fact that the Roman Catholic church is without external mercy, claiming that all ( very minor exceptions) who dont belong will go to hell shows their lack of love; and faith in God’s wisdom. His church has those who believe and belief is a gift and belief is in degrees. No one can set the bar on belief.
If you ignore what is in your heart, you will be the one who has to answer to Christ for your disbelief. Don’t let fear make decisions. Find the denominational church Christ wants you in”

Edwin G. is not Catholic. He doesn’t live in the U.S.A. His words are false. Your original post told us that you have shopped around, gotten mixed up and are trying to be a better Theologian than your Bishop or Cardinal Ratzinger (Vatican’s head of Doctrine of the Faith). Do you trust yourself or Cardinal Ratzinger? It’s your life…and death.
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Hi Exporter,
The question is not do you trust yourself or Cardinal Ratzinger but do your trust in the Holy Spirit or men.
I say this believing you to be a christian of sincere heart.
I would not say this to a non-christian or a Sunday only Christian who was satisfied with his place in Christ, not wishing to grow.
If something is nagging away at you and the answer is not antichrist, accept it as a leading of the Holy Spirit.
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
 
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Convert97:
First, don’t listen to Edwin G. Not only is he wrong on external mercy, he is wrong that doubt is a sin. If you are exploring your doubts you are searching for the Truth that is Jesus Christ and you are on your way to God. Also, God doesn’t want us going to the denomination of our choice. He wants us to be one as He and the father are one. He built his Church on the Rock of Peter and said the gates of hell will never prevail against it. So, take those doubts and see what the Apostolic Church teaches about them. If the Catechism won’t do for you, try Rome Sweet Home by Scott Hahn. He comes to agree with the Catholic teaching that salvation comes through Grace and then overcomes his doubts and joins the Catholic Church. Our prayers are with you.
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Hi Convert97,
Romans14:23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith, for whatever is not from faith is sin."
Of course we all have doubts as we travel but that does not make them ok. Look into your heart and see and understand that doubt is a lack of faith. Sure I am not free of doubts, but when I doubt I realise it is a lack of faith.
Christ be with you
Walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG
e
 
Gratias Grace:
Must the Holy Spirit guide you!

Blessings!

G.Grace
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Hi Gratias Grace,
I dont understand the above. Would you explain it please?
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
 
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