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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Thank you, Guano, for saying so. If you don’t mind my asking, do you have an opinion on what Jesus meant by the word be in this command?
“Be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.”
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“Be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.”
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Jane:
I know it is a question i asked before, but i’m not sure i understood your answer. Besides, i think i’ve reached the age where i have forgotten more then i might ever know!
At any rate, i’m asking you to be patient with me, like Jesus, who often had to reteach things (even to his disciples) because, like me, they were slow to learn.
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
I think what you are saying, Jane, is that the words:
“Be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.”
mean both to become perfect and to be (or remain) perfect. Am i understanding you correctly? If not, please briefly clarify what you do think Jesus means by using the word be.
“Be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.”
mean both to become perfect and to be (or remain) perfect. Am i understanding you correctly? If not, please briefly clarify what you do think Jesus means by using the word be.
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
I’ll check back later to see your reply.
J
JaneFrances
Guest
I recall the meaning of the word “be” has already been discussed in depth pertaining to the Biblical usage of the word, but for a reminder:
The word “Be” is directly translated from its Greek root ” esomai,” which is the **future first person singular form **of the root word “eimi.”
“Eimi” means “to be.”
Thus, it is understood that Christ’s words “Be perfect” mean: you are “to be” perfect.
You can also review Edwin’s post #49 here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=144393&page=2
It would also help this discussion move forward for you to plainly and as succinctly as possible reveal what YOU think “be” means.
I will gladly discuss the theological implications of the meaning of the word “be” once you have identified the proper Biblical usage.
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Edwin wrote:*I did not say that “you shall be perfect” is the correct translation. In English we often tell people to “be” something that they currently are not–a point I made in my previous post and you neglected to address. Consider the following statements without any context:**Be kind!**Be patient!**Be generous!**Would you automatically assume that the people being addressed were already kind, patient, or generous? I certainly wouldn’t. If anything, I’d assume that they probably were lacking in these virtues, or the command would be unnecessary. **Greek has several different ways to express a command. You can use the present imperative (which in this case would be “este”) which does usually have the meaning “keep on being.” Or you can use the aorist imperative, which indicates an action to be performed at a point in time (i.e., probably something the person is not yet doing). The problem is that the verb “to be” has no aorist. So Greek typically uses the word “become” instead in that case. Neither of these is being used here–instead, the future tense is used with imperative meaning. That obviously has the sense of “here is what you are to do in the future” (otherwise the future tense would not be used!). All of these can be translated by a simple “be” in English. **Bottom line: if the passage meant what you are suggesting, then the present imperative and not the future indicative would be used. *Find me one qualified NT scholar who thinks that “esesthe teleioi” implies that the people being addressed are already perfect. If you want to rely on the fact that translators use “be”, then you should be able to find a qualified commentator who gives it this meaning.
I did ask Edwin to explain further what he meant, but he did not reply. I explained that i could say to sons in a library, “Be quiet” when they were being quiet and i wanted them to remain so.
The problem that i have is that i do not know if i can trust Edwin. St. John tells me:
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.(1 John 4:1)I do not know John from Adam, so i do not think it wise to take him on his word. St. John tells me to test every spirit, which i take to mean those which are the spirit of truth and those which are the spirit of deception. He advises me to not trust anything i am told until it measures up to the test.
Now, i work in Information Technology and on occasion use a multi-meter to test whether a PC is functioning or not. I would never give the multi-meter to my son and tell him to test a PC for several reasons: (1) he does not know how to use it, (2) he might damage the diagnostic device (which is easy to do), and (3) he might electrocute himself and suffer a bad burn or even death.
Edwin is asking me to use a “multi-meter” called the Greek language. I do not think it wise as (1) i do not know Greek, (2) i would most certainly butcher the language if i tried to use it without proper education, and (3) i might misunderstand the meaning of Jesus’ words and suffer eternal death.
Until i obtain a proper education in Greek, i should not rely on the opinion of someone who says he is an expert in the language. I believe St. John would agree, don’t you, Janet?
Regarding your question about my understanding of the word be, i do have some idea what Jesus meant and would be happy to explain. However, i thought you had agreed that i should ask questions of you, first, so that you can teach me what you believe. If you have changed your mind, let me know. If you would still like to answer my questions, then please answer the question in my next reply.
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
For the reasons i mention in the previous reply, i hope you will be considerate enough to stick with the language we both have in common: English.
What i think you are saying, then, is that the proper understanding of our Lord’s words should be:
“You are to be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.”
I should next ask, then, does this understanding of our Savior’s words mean the same as this?
“Become perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.”
Or do his words not mean the same, or do his words carry both meanings?
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guanophore
Guest
I am sorry that I cannot wrap my mind around this concept. Since we have a sinful nature, and God’s nature is Holy, I cannot grasp somehow that we can be “perfect” (sinless) like He is. I think He has provided us with grace to prevent sin, to overcome our concupiscence, and to be made holy, as He is holy. But to me, I cannot shake that sense that perfect means completed (having been given everything). That grace we are given also includes the grace received in reconciliation, when we fall.
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
I appreciate your honesty, Guano. I have the same problem grasping the concept, for i can understand how Jesus (1) saved me from the penalty of my sin by His sacrificial death for me long ago, and (2) is daily saving me from the power of sin as the Holy Spirit empowers me to not be sinless but to sin less and less. What i do not understand is how Jesus can (3) save me from the very presence of sin while i still live in the flesh.
I’m thinking (3) is impossible until i am removed from my flesh and my soul is given a completely sinless and immortal body that can withstand every temptation. I’ve always seen (3) as only being possible after my dead body is resurrected from the grave and reunited with my soul.
Janet seems to be saying that (3) is entirely possible, with the help of the Holy Spirit, for you and me here and now (prior to death). In fact, she says this is the very message of the gospel. That is why i am asking her questions to see if what she says is really true.
Perhaps if we both listen to what she has to say she will give us the knowledge and wisdom she has and we both lack.
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guanophore
Guest
I think it might make more sense to say it the other way around. Since we have a sinful nature, and live in a fallen world, sin will not be removed until the end of time. However, God fills us with His spirit, and by grace enables us to be in the world, but not “of” it. We are called out, set apart, made holy. I think that this is how Zechariah and Elisabeth lived.
Luke 1:5-6
5 In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zechari’ah, of the division of Abi’jah; and he had a wife of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless."
What is amazing about this is that they were able to walk blamelessly before the Lord BEFORE the baptism of the HS.!
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Yes, Guano, i agree that people can strive to become perfect. I agree that they do this not in their own power, but in the power of the Holy Spirit, as the prophet said:
So he said to me, "This is the word of the LORD … ‘Not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit,’ says the LORD Almighty.(Zechariah 4:6)I also agree that people who reach as state of sinless perfection cannot remain in that state for long. The ways to sin are many: There are sins of commission and sins of omission. There are sins not just of words and deeds, but of thoughts as well.
Even Zechariah, who you mentioned, did not remain blameless, for he doubted God and the angel disciplined him for his lack of faith by making him mute until his son, John the Baptist, was born.
11Then an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing at the right side of the altar of incense. 12When Zechariah saw him, he was startled and was gripped with fear. 13But the angel said to him: "Do not be afraid, Zechariah; your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you are to give him the name John. … 18Zechariah asked the angel, “How can I be sure of this? I am an old man and my wife is well along in years.” 19The angel answered, “I am Gabriel. I stand in the presence of God, and I have been sent to speak to you and to tell you this good news. 20And now you will be silent and not able to speak until the day this happens, because you did not believe my words, which will come true at their proper time.” (Luke 1)So, when Jesus said:
“Be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.”(Matthew 5:48)by using the words “be perfect” our loving Lord must have meant something other than practical perfection. Practically we sin every day, so practical perfection is not something you or i ever achieve. If perfection we obtain, perfect we do not remain! We do sin less and less, but we are never sinless, at least not in these mortal bodies in which we live. Sinlessness is a blessing we will only enjoy after the Resurrection. Do you see what i mean?
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Truthstalker
Guest
I see what you mean.
Consider that sins are washed away in baptism. Consider that Jesus promised:
Catholics take this seriously. Your sins are not just painted over, they are removed. You are cleansed. Not just a legal pronouncement of it, but actual cleansing. You still have the temptation to sin. Yes we sin, but we do not have to. We are set free from its power, cleansed from its filth, liberated from its bondage. You can either go back to wallowing in it or confess anything else and press forward in Christ.
Some people have been known to score 300 in bowling. Repeatedly. Consistently. That is a perfect score. It can be done. Likewise you can live a sinless life - but it takes a lot of practice and a lot of forgiveness and sanctification by the power of the Holy Spirit. It is easier for some than others, but God also takes that into consideration.
In absolution, all your sins are wiped away. You are then practically perfect in every way.
Am I getting this right, Catholics? They won’t let me confess my sins because I don’t know enough about Catholicism - I have to go through RCIA first and be taught. So I am invincibly ignorant. So I could be wrong about thiis.
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
TS:
Well, no one could say of me, “Be a good Catholic” because, although one might argue i used to be one, i am not one now. What the good people on this forum are trying to do is to convince me that i should become a good Catholic, which is something i am considering.
That being said, the quote you provided from my good friend St. John raises an interesting question about the whole question as to whether a person can, on this side of eternity, be (or remain) perfect.
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.
(1 John 1:8-10)
Isn’t St. John saying that anyone who claims to have reached a state where she is without sin is deceiving herself and the truth is not in her?
I believe he is, and i thank you for bring up St. John’s first letter, for this truth had completely escaped me until now. You’re a good man, TS!
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.
(1 John 1:8-10)
Does anyone else agree that it might be true that a person can (with the Holy Spirit’s help) become perfect, however, no one can ever be (or remain) perfect while still in these mortal bodies of ours?
(1 John 1:8-10)
Does anyone else agree that it might be true that a person can (with the Holy Spirit’s help) become perfect, however, no one can ever be (or remain) perfect while still in these mortal bodies of ours?
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guanophore
Guest
I think it is important to interpret this verse in the light of the context and the grammar. john is talking to believers (persons saved through baptism). He is using words which indicate ongoing action in the present, such as a lifestyle or way of being. The apostle is not saying that we never sin, or else he would ot be encouraging self reflection, honesty, and confession. He is saying that, if you are in Christ, you cannot persist in a lifestyle of sin, and you are responsible to take any sins to confession.TS:
Well, no one could say of me, “Be a good Catholic” because, although one might argue i used to be one, i am not one now. What the good people on this forum are trying to do is to convince me that i should become a good Catholic, which is something i am considering.
That being said, the quote you provided from my good friend St. John raises an interesting question about the whole question as to whether a person can, on this side of eternity, be (or remain) perfect.
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.
(1 John 1:8-10)
Isn’t St. John saying that anyone who claims to have reached a state where she is without sin is deceiving herself and the truth is not in her?
I believe he is, and i thank you for bring up St. John’s first letter, for this truth had completely escaped me until now. You’re a good man, TS!
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Yes, Guano, i concur. So, it appears we agree that whatever our beloved Jesus meant when he said
“Be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.”(Matthew 5:48)He did not in any way mean that one can reach as state, while in her mortal body, of sinlessness (if He did, then St. John contradicts Him). He must have been speaking of a different kind of perfection other than practical (sinless) perfection. Do you think this to be the case?
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guanophore
Guest
No, I do not agree. I believe that He intended for us to seek this state and constantly pursue it. I believe that He intends for us to live in a state of grace all the time. I recognize the difficulty of fulfilling this commandment,but it is only by His grace, and our cooperation with His grace, that this is possible. That is why CAtholic teaching is that salvation is a process, not a one time event.
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Yes, i understand. Please understand that i’m not proposing that sanctification is not a process. I’m saying that there is a difference between becoming perfect and being perfect. Let me give an example:
My son who is in 4th grade wants to become an engineer. It would be incorrect for me to say to him, “Be a good engineer” because he cannot possibly be good at being an engineer if he has not yet earned a degree in engineering.
The correct thing for me to say to him is, “Son, become a good engineer” because one can only become what he is not.
Now, when i am older, losing my hair, many years from now, i hope he will come visit me and i will have the privilege of encouraging him with the words, “Son, be a good engineer” for it is my sincere hope that one day he will become an good engineer. What i will be saying to him then is that i believe in him, that i know he has become a good engineer, and that i want him to be (or remain) one.
You see, being is the opposite of *becoming. *Now, if Jesus had said:
“Become perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.”(Matthew 5:48)
You and i and Janet would not be having this conversation, for we would all agree that he was talking to people who were not as perfect as God and encouraging them to strive to become as perfect as God. But He does not use the word become, he uses the word be, which means to be in a present state of, or to remain. By saying, “Be perfect” he could not possibly mean “Become perfect” for becoming is the opposite of being, and a word cannot have two definitions that are opposite of each other.
It would be a contradiction for me to think that by using the word perfect Jesus meant:
“Be imperfect, just as your Father in heaven is imperfect.”
(Matthew 5:48)
“Be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.”
(Matthew 5:48)
because the word be can never mean become. Do you agree?
G
guanophore
Guest
This analogy does not apply, because God has already told us that we are postionally perfect. We are “in Christ” seated in the heavenly places with Him. If your son had already been declared an engineer, then you could tell him to be a good one. But he has not. It is similar to the child kings in the ancient world, who inherited the monarchy at a young age. They were called the king, but they were kept by stewards and counsellors until they came of age.
2 Kings 11:21-12:3
21 Jeho’ash was seven years old when he began to reign.
12:1 In the seventh year of Jehu Jeho’ash began to reign, and he reigned forty years in Jerusalem. His mother’s name was Zib’iah of Beer-sheba. 2 And Jeho’ash did what was right in the eyes of the LORD all his days, because Jehoi’ada the priest instructed him"
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JaneFrances
Guest
I am not Janet nor am I Edwin, but I would point out that every time you open Sacred Scripture, you rely on language experts with whom you are not familiar. They may not be Edwin, but you still don’t know them from Adam. You do not know these people, yet you still tend to believe that their choices regarding translation are worthy of trust. And while, no one would expect you to take Edwin’s or anyone else’s opinion without further support, for you to discount his learned advice, based on a mistrust due to the fact that you simply don’t know him, is foolish.
I would remind you, Socrates, that Edwin (and subsequently I have as well) also asked that you supply scholarly support for your own opinion. You have yet to do so.
Socrates, I agreed to engage in dialogue. If you review this thread you will notice my reluctance to agree to your methodology. In fact, I only passively assented to your teacher/student scenario because you consistently seemed to overlook my opinion on the matter and I wanted to begin the discussion without further ado.
I did agree to answer your questions, but I also fully expect to be able to reciprocate in an immediate and timely fashion so that this dialogue remains interactive as such. I realize that you have a great admiration for the Socratic method. It is a useful tool. However, I will not be used. I will continue to attempt to answer your pointed questions for as long as I can and as long as I see this conversation is profitable.
So, please ask questions. And please answer those which are directed towards you. This is what we refer to, in English, as “dialogue.”
Sure, but which English?
Surely, you see my dilemma.
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