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ByzCathCantor
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Well, if one reads thru this thread even casually, the argument for more canon lawyers becomes rather painfully clear.
[Practicing, Poorly Catechized] Lesbian Denied Communion at Mother's Funeral
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NeedImprovement
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Maybe it might be better said that this is your own personal interpretation of # 170 of the ritual ; that is, if you remain unable to agree that words of remembrance in general (“big Catholic funerals” aside) are to be kept brief - so that what you’re saying isn’t seen as conjecture. Granted these “big Catholic funerals” exist. Yet they hardly seem pertinent to the conversation at hand and would be considered an exception to the rule – otherwise, where is the rule ? As a priest you’re surely aware how each Christian funeral is somewhat unique in its own way. So some type of order is appropriate.
If it is recommended that a homily should be brief, it only seems logical that generally speaking, the words of remembrance should follow suit.
While you may personally claim that # 170 “says nothing about being brief nor does it give any guidelines” , an archdiocese in your own New England region finds it preferable to promulgate guidelines for Ecclesial Funeral Rites containing one item in particular which addresses this very matter. One of the differences , between what you’re saying about # 170 and what Father Austin Fleming says, is that
I can’t admit to seeing that happen too often myself. Usually everyone, including all personnel participating on behalf of the Church are seated when the words of remembrance are delivered . Perhaps that’s an indicator of what has been happening when we aren’t able to anticipate what the Church envisions. Perhaps, that is one of the reasons why the Archdiocese of Boston found it necessary to publish their Policy on Ecclesiastical Funeral Rites
I additionally think “big funerals” can actually be a misnomer at times . For most families , there is no “bigger” funeral than the funeral of the mother or father of that family .
Because our pastor had been subjected to some liturgical nightmares in the past during the supposed words of remembrance, at my own father’s funeral Mass , I didn’t even request we give any words of remembrance, opting instead to have them inscribed on his gravestone. I did however at that same Mass, passionately assert to my (no longer Catholic nor Christian) elder brother at Communion time that his four (unbaptized ) children should not receive Holy Communion. He was okay with that and no one was offended by it .
It had nothing to do with whether one was more worthy than another. It had only to do with guarding against abuses concerning the Holy Eucharist.One month after my father’s funeral, at the wake of ( a man whom I consider to have been a very holy priest) , the Superior of this priest’s order asked me to give the words of remembrance (he actually said eulogy – well “éloge funèbre” in French) at his funeral Mass the following day , firmly iterating to me : “… not more than four or five minutes.” For this particular religious order (established well over 700 years ago) , the funeral didn’t get any “bigger” than that, with priests, brothers and sisters of the order in attendance – yet, I was clearly instructed to make the “eulogy” “no longer than four or five minutes.”
Of course, you’re totally free to hold as your own personal interpretation of # 170, that the words of remembrance during a Catholic funeral are not intended to be brief . Yet, I do have to seriously wonder whether conveying your personal interpretation to others here in a way in which it might be construed as being the purported prevalent thought of the Church is such a great idea, particularly in light of the preponderance of compelling evidence to the contrary.
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Dee_S
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NewEnglandPriest
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#170 of the funeral ritual is permissive in nature. Thus that means its optional and the priest or bishop has the right to not allow them.Maybe different Diocese have different mandates, but in mine, in recent years anyway, we have always been told to give the Eulogy at the Wake Service at the Funeral Home. No more are we allowed to give it after Communion in Church. It used to be that family members could give a short Eulogy after Communion but it was stopped about 5 to 7 years ago. Now they are told to do all this before going to the Funeral Mass.
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rusyn
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Practicing lesbian or “practicing Catholic”? I’m just saying - you can’t be both.
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NewEnglandPriest
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I haven’t interpreted anything. Its an interpretation to say the words of remembrance should be brief since #170 says no such thing.
Well it is rather surprising that more people want the words of remembrance to be brief (though the ritual says no such thing) yet rarely bat an eye if the homily is not brief (which is explicitly stated in the ritual).
As I said, the words of remembrance usually follow the guidelines given by the local priest. If someone isn’t given guidelines its hard to fault them for failing to follow something nonexistent.
But even still, I highly doubt everyone is going to be standing for 5 minutes. The usual practice will probably be followed.
Indeed. Obviously I was using it in a more vernacular manner. For example, if a well known Catholic politician dies the homily might be 10 minutes long, but the several eulogies take much longer. Somehow no one seems to complain about the eulogy not being “brief” if they like the people involved.
The point is that if someone merely looked up #170 in the ritual without any other guideline then they’d have no reason to be “brief.” Those are things that are given as guidelines by the diocese (generally) and the priest (specific to the particular funeral). People seem to be bent out shape that there were 2 eulogies and that they went for 20 minutes or so. My point is that those things are regulated by the diocese and the priest. Unless something unorthodox was stated then there’s no quarrel with the individual who received no guidance.
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NeedImprovement
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Would it be safe to say then, that it would be extremely rare for a priest or bishop to use such authority to disallow a “eulogy” (words of remembrance) on the grounds that said “eulogy” might be too short in length ; say (for a figure off the top of my head …
) because the eulogy did not exceed a length of 4 minutes:59 seconds …?
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Catherine_S
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Discarding the** word** Eulogy altogether in** relationship** to a Catholic Funeral Mass might just help clear up many misconceptions!
Most Eulogies cater to a* secular*** understanding of faith, a ceremony with no significance to Catholic teaching…
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The focus of the Catholic Funeral Mass is not on the life of the deceased, but on the saving mercy of God that brings the deceased into eternal life. I also noted last week that the current funeral ritual of the Church does permit a family member or friend to say a few words of remembrance at the funeral, but does not permit that person to deliver a eulogy.
Thefirm belief of the Catholic Church is that the Christian funeral is not a celebration of the life of the person who has died, even though we honor and express gratitude for all God’s gifts to that person. "The funeral liturgy is a celebration of salvation and mercy, of grace and eternal life. It is not meant to be a commemoration (much less a canonization) of the person who has died. Extended remembering of the deceased often results in forgetting the Lord." (Archbishop Daniel Pilarczyk) While the presider is to keep in mind with delicate sensitivity not only the identity of the deceased and the circumstances of the death, but also the grief of the bereaved, the focus of the Christian funeral rite is the saving mystery of Jesus’ death and resurrection. Attentive to the grief of those present, the homilist should dwell on God’s compassionate love and on the Paschal Mystery of the Lord, as proclaimed in the Scripture readings. (OCF 27).
http://www.bssky.org/?page=newsforward&name=bssky.org&article=1931
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In terms of my Catholic upbringing the word Eulogy was never used in terms of a Catholic Funeral Mass. A Eulogy was what other folks (not Catholic) did when someone died.
Through this thread, I have learned, that a Eulogy is** still** not to be given at a Catholic Funeral Mass and for this** I am happy.** I will not** use the word again for it causes confusion!
In terms of my previous post, call it a “Eulogy”** or a “Rememberance” it was in the context of just how much** disrespect** towards Catholic teaching had gone on at that** particular** Mass. Not only by this women but by her family who are also upset because Father followed Catholic teaching in terms of her** receiving** the Blessed Sacrament after her own declaration to him of her lifestyle. I still do not believe that anything, Father might have tried to explain to this women, would have stopped her from giving her “Rememberance” short or** long. **
I believe that Father did what he had to do, I am sorry he became ill* but** not sorry that he left while the “Rememberance” was going on. It gave him time to care for his psysical** need** for water etc, and to** contact** another priest to attend the burial grounds. *God Bless him.
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NewEnglandPriest
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So what you’re saying is that you’re blaming her for doing something no one told her not to do?
And, once again, the only thing that can be complained about at this point is the length. Is that really something to get worked up about?
And, once again, the only thing that can be complained about at this point is the length. Is that really something to get worked up about?
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oneofmany
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The article I posted states that she received communion—just not from the priest. A Eucharist minister gave it to her. I don’t think much was said about the eulogy except the priest wasn’t there for much of it. If he was getting a migraine then that is understandable.
This whole story seems to be an agenda thing to me. Gays are forcing the church to accept them even when they are living with a “lover.” I don’t think that will ever happen. They need to respect that even if they do not like it.
This whole story seems to be an agenda thing to me. Gays are forcing the church to accept them even when they are living with a “lover.” I don’t think that will ever happen. They need to respect that even if they do not like it.
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Geist
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Thats a good idea, I’ve been to a few wedding/funeral Masses where non-Catholics get rushed into the Communion line and dumbfoundedly take it to avoid appearing rude or fighting the line I guess.
Pausing to explain the sacrament in a setting where you know theres a mixed group like a wedding or a funeral is good practice IMO.
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ByzCathCantor
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The first article is truly telling.
The second is so bland as to be almost a mute defense and weak public statement at best. After reading it, I’m not sure who’s right, who’s wrong, or when we as practicing Catholics should or should not receive Communion. While there appears to be something there in defence of Fr. Marcel’s actions, it stops very well short of do so, and is almost tragic following a release of a public apology. The two just don’t seem to fit together …
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NewEnglandPriest
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Its reported that she received communion from a EMHC, however the article gives no basis for its truth. It claims to be from an “inside source” but never says how or why the source should be believed.
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catholictiger
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Father Z had talked about this in his blog and that a cannon lawyer told him that it was not an appropriate use of Cannon 915 to deny this person holy communion. Did anyone post this?
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jwinch2
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catholictiger
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ok was just making sure for me that convinced me why while the priest was being courageous overstepped the bounds of Cannon 915.Yes
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rusyn
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end
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rusyn
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oneofmany
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ncronline.org/blogs/grace-margins/denying-eucharist-deepens-our-deprivation-gods-presence
I found this web site on another board. Does anyone know about this Catholic web site?
St. Gregory of Nyssa Episcopal Church? People seem to think this is a Catholic church and because they allow “Open” communion all Catholic churches should. The comments after the article are interesting.
What is this web site anyway? TIA
I found this web site on another board. Does anyone know about this Catholic web site?
St. Gregory of Nyssa Episcopal Church? People seem to think this is a Catholic church and because they allow “Open” communion all Catholic churches should. The comments after the article are interesting.
What is this web site anyway? TIA
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