Praise and Worship choruses during Mass

[snhs]

Like I said, I have before. It’s been ignored. I’m not doing it again.

Nice try at dodging the question there, if it exists produce it. If you wrote it it should be incredibly easy for you to find it, and copying and pasting/hyperlinking it in your next post will take far less effort than your attempts to refute posts which take the view that your failure to produce such a comparison is evidence that no such comparison exists, or that it is so weak that your best chance of holding a vaguely sound position is in hiding behind something you, allegedly, wrote at some point, and which others were, allegedly, unable to refute. If on the other hand no such comparison exists…

As Benedictgal states Gregorian Chant and P&W are diametrically opposed to each other, and I’ve not seen anything on this thread or any other which even begins to suggest otherwise.

 

[VociMike]

Actually, I have done such a thing. It has been glossed over and ignored. Many people here have no idea how to discuss music itself that they have been unable to refute any points I make. I’m tired.

Even Jesus repeated himself when necessary. If you have such a point-by-point assessment, don’t hide it.

 

[benedictgal]

Outside of the Catholic Church the same debate is happening. Some denominations and/or individual congregations are more liberal, others more conservative in what music is acceptable in their services. I would not say conversation is ended because of a harsh word. We accept that we served a mixed audience, in my case generationaly and culturally. The final say is handed over to the senior Pastor in consultation with the Praise leader. As I understand it you are waiting for a decision from a higher level religious authority. Until he/they make a decision the lines of communication must remain open.

However, the Church has already issued documents regarding sacred music. Concerns have already been raised at a high leerl. Part of the problem was that experiemtation came into full force in the wake of the Second Vatican Council. A lot of what people claimed the Council said didn’t even come from the Council. It was more of an observance of the alleged “spirit” of the council (which led to severe misunderstandings). Now, Pope Benedict XVI, who was actually at the Council, has had to tackle a lot of issues, the integrity of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass being one of them.

Unlike Protestant denominations, the Church is bound to follow the norms and dicates of the Holy See. Bishops play a role in dictating what goes on in their dioceses (territories), but, even they have to submit to the Holy Father’s authority. Priests have a share, but only insofar as their parishes are concerned. For example, my pastor cannot go and dicate to another pastor what he should do. That is for the bishop to decide.

Thus, the scenario you gave would not necessarily work for the Church.

 

[4Squarebaby]

As the organist/pianist/cantor for our little cathedral, I am getting sick and tired of people criticizing the music we pick. I don’t even get paid for what I do, yet I am there week after week, day after day, getting music ready on my days off from “real work” that I actually get paid for.
My choir, if you can call them that, doesn’t even want to have rehearsal anymore. I can’t get them together for more than 15 minutes without someone having to leave.
And you want them to learn Latin chants, so that your delicate ears will be pleased?
Give me a serious break. The people who often complain about the music usually aren’t even in choir. And they sure don’t help pay me for the music I provide. How about a special monetary gift at Christmas? Would these grousers ever even THINK of doing that? Of course not.
So you know what I do? I play hymns that the congregation knows. I usually throw in a P/W song from the Music Missal during Communion. I try to teach the congregation an occasional new song or hymn. I do the best I can do. But Gregorian chant is simply unattainable for the most part.
Why don’t you complainers spend the next 40 years learning to play the piano or organ, then take a church job for next to nothing, and THEN you have the right to complain. Otherwise, be quiet.

As church music strays, becomes more seperate from a society’s popular music you will have fewer and fewer kids taking up the church music by choice. Many will be forced into it just as many are forced into piano lessons which last for a couple of months before the child quits.

Is a praise musician and his church actually praising and worshiping if both the musician and the majority of his church do not enjoy the noise he makes?

 

[VociMike]

As the organist/pianist/cantor for our little cathedral, I am getting sick and tired of people criticizing the music we pick. I don’t even get paid for what I do, yet I am there week after week, day after day, getting music ready on my days off from “real work” that I actually get paid for.
My choir, if you can call them that, doesn’t even want to have rehearsal anymore. I can’t get them together for more than 15 minutes without someone having to leave.
And you want them to learn Latin chants, so that your delicate ears will be pleased?
Give me a serious break. The people who often complain about the music usually aren’t even in choir. And they sure don’t help pay me for the music I provide. How about a special monetary gift at Christmas? Would these grousers ever even THINK of doing that? Of course not.
So you know what I do? I play hymns that the congregation knows. I usually throw in a P/W song from the Music Missal during Communion. I try to teach the congregation an occasional new song or hymn. I do the best I can do. But Gregorian chant is simply unattainable for the most part.
Why don’t you complainers spend the next 40 years learning to play the piano or organ, then take a church job for next to nothing, and THEN you have the right to complain. Otherwise, be quiet.

From what you write you seem to have not a clue what the Church says about sacred music, and how it is to be judged worthy or unworthy. Instead you just offer contempt.

And you want them to learn Latin chants, so that your delicate ears will be pleased?

 

[snhs]

If the faithful do not understand a Latin hymn, of what spiritual benefit is it to them? How can they properly worship God through the singing of that hymn if the lyrics are meaningless to them?

We’ve done the readings in English for years. Prior to the Missal of 1962. Why? So the faithful could understand them. The readings in the EF Mass are read in English.

…

I am gravely concerned that those of you advocating we “go back to the way it was/is supposed to be” are expecting that when Rome promulgates a document on music at Mass just think everything will be back to the way you want it the next day. It’s not going to happen that way.

And now, I come back to responsibility… What are you doing to positively foster an interest in Latin in your parishes?

Societal changes have costs us young people playing organ. If you’re not stepping up to the plate in your parishes and encouraging, when my generation gets too old, organ will be finished. Latin is too, I’m afraid.

Let me ask you of what spiritual value is the Eucharist? After all we can’t exactly claim to understand that can we. Of what spiritual benefit is Mass for that matter, when at it’s heart and soul is something that is completely and utterly beyond the powers of man’s understanding?

We offer worship to God in the Mass, most of which is founded upon mysteries the likes of which we can barely conceive of never mind understand. And hymns in any language are only meaningless if we do not find the meaning in them, someone could sing the most beautiful song this side of Heaven and if we were not looking for meaning of some description it would not be there.

It may have escaped your notice but even in America people sometimes go to see Operas in foreign languages or Movies in a foreign language. Sometimes they’ll take along the libretto, most of the time they will sit and listen to the music, they understand by listening and watching even if they could not tell you the meaning of every word in the script.

People advocating that we do what we’re meant to? My goodness, how radical . This is not about the way any one group of people want things to be, it is about what the Church wants of the music in the Liturgy.

I think you may be surprised actually. For example Fr Z on WDTPRS has a post showing a sign up sheet for training in the EF at the NAC, perhaps you should go have a look.

 

[TurboVW]

I was baptized and raised in a suburban parish that had a “joyful noise” choir. It consisted of roughly a dozen people who were already showing gray hairs by the time I came about (1985) They played the guitar Mass standards of the late 60’s and early 70’s, mixed with the occasional traditional hymn and modern praise and worship selections that were unpublished in the hymnal.

I found them to be very definitive of that church, but by the time my friends and I were in high school, we started to roll our eyes at them, especially at the more bizarre song choices: “Voices That Challenge”, “Awesome God” (complete with the “sign language”) and lots of clapping or soulful shouting to unpublished praise and worship songs. Sometimes this would bring outright laughter by other parishoners in the pews.

Most of my friends who were my age dismissed the music at Mass as being too corny (and attended Masses led by the organist), and this was only about five years ago. Since that time, I re-discovered sacred hymnody and place great value on traditional hymns, so that they may not be lost to “Awesome God.”

My parish recieved a new music director who ended the 38-year run of the “joyful noise” choir and thus the end of the hootenany Mass. His selections, albeit modern and soothing, now have a lounge-y feel about them.

Then I realized many, many parishes sound exactly like him, and there’s few that want to take on the iniative of tradional hymns. Although I miss the energy that the “folk Mass” brought, and certain hymns they played (you gotta admit, there’s some older ones that are pretty orthodox in their own right), I feel this “praise and worship” stuff has past its time.

Contrary to what some muscians think, this is not what young adults like, as it’s awkward imitations of secular music. My university even switched from a “litugrical dance-praise and worship” format to a more tradionalist stance in their hymns at Mass. We want real, sacred music to remind us of the holiness of the Mass.

 

[VociMike]

As church music strays, becomes more seperate from a society’s popular music you will have fewer and fewer kids taking up the church music by choice. Many will be forced into it just as many are forced into piano lessons which last for a couple of months before the child quits.

Is a praise musician and his church actually praising and worshiping if both the musician and the majority of his church do not enjoy the noise he makes?

Church music wasn’t like the society’s popular music in the past, but finding musicians wasn’t a problem. In fact, I suggest that what you have said is exactly not the problem. If “church music” is supposed to attract the same musicians who are attracted to “society’s popular music” and for the same reasons, then why wouldn’t those musicians just stick with the real thing, rather than the copycat, day-late and a dollar-short church imitations?

In fact it is precisely the “differentness”, the set-aside-for-God quality of Gregorian chant and sacred polyphony that draws many musicians and many other parishioners to that music when they wouldn’t be drawn to the standard fare found in most Catholic churches. A great many musicians (I have heard them say so again and again) find the common Catholic fare to be a pathetic joke, and want no part of it. They’d rather make good music at an Episcopalian or Lutheran or Methodist church.

 

[snhs]

Give me a serious break. The people who often complain about the music usually aren’t even in choir. And they sure don’t help pay me for the music I provide. How about a special monetary gift at Christmas? Would these grousers ever even THINK of doing that? Of course not.
So you know what I do?

Why is it that people seem to think they should be payed for helping at Mass? If you are helping the Church for your own benefit, profit or self aggrandisement then I’d respectfully suggest that you’re doing it for the wrong reasons.

If you want to know what the problems in the Church are they begin and end with such motivations. Remember that Our Lord said “Do not store up riches for yourselves here on earth, where moths and rust destroy, and robbers break in and steal. 20 Instead, store up riches for yourselves in heaven where moths and rust cannot destroy, and robbers cannot break in and steal. 21 For your heart will always be where your riches are”.

 

[4Squarebaby]

Why is it that people seem to think they should be payed for helping at Mass? If you are helping the Church for your own benefit, profit or self aggrandisement then I’d respectfully suggest that you’re doing it for the wrong reasons.

If you want to know what the problems in the Church are they begin and end with such motivations. Remember that Our Lord said “Do not store up riches for yourselves here on earth, where moths and rust destroy, and robbers break in and steal. 20 Instead, store up riches for yourselves in heaven where moths and rust cannot destroy, and robbers cannot break in and steal. 21 For your heart will always be where your riches are”.

Just as with anyother ministry the music ministry is suffering from a shortage of people willing to serve. At a minumum they give up all their free time for two days a week to serve. Unlike other ministries the skill of the musician is in demand by both the secular society and other churches willing to pay for that skill. Many see themselves just as the Israeli tribe which was ineffect professional worship leaders.

It is easier to get someone to volunteer to do something they like rather then dislike but is told is good. In the end do you pay for that skill or just accept that your church will have to accept recordings or less technically demanding music being played in it?

 

[Cat]

As the organist/pianist/cantor for our little cathedral, I am getting sick and tired of people criticizing the music we pick. I don’t even get paid for what I do, yet I am there week after week, day after day, getting music ready on my days off from “real work” that I actually get paid for.
My choir, if you can call them that, doesn’t even want to have rehearsal anymore. I can’t get them together for more than 15 minutes without someone having to leave.
And you want them to learn Latin chants, so that your delicate ears will be pleased?
Give me a serious break. The people who often complain about the music usually aren’t even in choir. And they sure don’t help pay me for the music I provide. How about a special monetary gift at Christmas? Would these grousers ever even THINK of doing that? Of course not.
So you know what I do? I play hymns that the congregation knows. I usually throw in a P/W song from the Music Missal during Communion. I try to teach the congregation an occasional new song or hymn. I do the best I can do. But Gregorian chant is simply unattainable for the most part.
Why don’t you complainers spend the next 40 years learning to play the piano or organ, then take a church job for next to nothing, and THEN you have the right to complain. Otherwise, be quiet.

God bless you! Good for you! You are expressing what many of us who actually “do” the Church’s music know is truth.

So Gregorian chant is the model? What exactly does that mean? As I have always understood it, the “model” is not reality. It is the “ideal,” but every thinking person understands that the “ideal” is not always attainable.

WHEN the Pope and the Vatican say that "Gregorian chant, Latin, and traditional Catholic hymns are the ONLY music acceptable in Mass, THEN I will buy into this. But they haven’t said that. They’ve held up a “model” and said, “Do your best.” And that’s just what most Catholic Mass musicians are doing–their best.

 

[4Squarebaby]

Church music wasn’t like the society’s popular music in the past, but finding musicians wasn’t a problem. In fact, I suggest that what you have said is exactly not the problem. If “church music” is supposed to attract the same musicians who are attracted to “society’s popular music” and for the same reasons, then why wouldn’t those musicians just stick with the real thing, rather than the copycat, day-late and a dollar-short church imitations?

I guess I said this when awnsering a previous post. Many are called to ministry at different levels. Some are called to the full time work for God, others have wordly responsibilities and desires that they will satisfy first. Reading the comments of Catholic musicians just as with Priest and Nuns in some parts of the world you are running out of organ players. Would a organ player in a jazz trio be more likely to give up time to serve his church if he enjoyed what he was tasked to play? I believe that more would.

In fact it is precisely the “differentness”, the set-aside-for-God quality of Gregorian chant and sacred polyphony that draws many musicians and many other parishioners to that music when they wouldn’t be drawn to the standard fare found in most Catholic churches. A great many musicians (I have heard them say so again and again) find the common Catholic fare to be a pathetic joke, and want no part of it. They’d rather make good music at an Episcopalian or Lutheran or Methodist church.

Methodist I can speak to as that’s where I spent part of my childhood. They have both the hymnal and they also normally have a modern service

 

[benedictgal]

God bless you! Good for you! You are expressing what many of us who actually “do” the Church’s music know is truth.

So Gregorian chant is the model? What exactly does that mean? As I have always understood it, the “model” is not reality. It is the “ideal,” but every thinking person understands that the “ideal” is not always attainable.

WHEN the Pope and the Vatican say that "Gregorian chant, Latin, and traditional Catholic hymns are the ONLY music acceptable in Mass, THEN I will buy into this. But they haven’t said that. They’ve held up a “model” and said, “Do your best.” And that’s just what most Catholic Mass musicians are doing–their best.

Actually, Cat, the Holy Father has made it very plain in Sacramentum Caritatis.

The problem is that very little attentino is paid to the fact that the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass has a characteristic altogehter different from the Protestnat notion of worship. We have the Sacrifice, as I have noted before. Protestants do not.

There is also a degree fo solemnity, dignity and beauty that is involved. We tend to forget that heaven and earth are wedded during the Mass. It is our meeting point, our encounter with the Divine Majesty of God. It is something out of the ordinary. It is cosmic.

I am curious as to whether or not the proponents of P&W have taken the time to read the authoritative documents of the Holy See as they relate to Sacred Music, going back to tbe document written by Pope St. Pius X, the letter Pope John Paul II wrote affirming what Pope St. Pius X said and what Pope Benedict XVI wrote in Sacramentum Caritatis. I suspect that even the publishes of this kind of music haven’t read the documents. Of course, since most of it comes from the Protestant ecclesial communities, I wouldn’t expect them to read what the Church has written, since these compositions were never meant for use in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

Contrary to what some have noted in the past, the Church teaches that we are not the only bodies in the pews. My PV noted in his homily today that we are joined by the angels and the saints and the Church suffering at every Mass. They are just as present in the Mass as you and I are. P&W does not take that into account at all. It’s all about the here and now. The musical settings are more along the lines of pop hits and it’s all about what we are doing. There is nothing to indicate the Sacrifice nor the eucharistic elements of the Faith. Why? It was never meant for that purpose. The aim of P&W is intrinsically different than what is called for use in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

Maybe if choirs and choir directors take a more proactive approach and read what the documents of the Holy See say, as opposed to following trends, something might happen. The documents are there for everyone to read. That is why they are posted and linked in websites like Adoremus and Musica Sacra.

Now, our cathedral organist is paid. When we had cantors, they were paid as well. Some of these folks, as was the case for one of our cantors (who was classicallly trained and could sing in three languages -English, Latin and Spanish) have families to support. But, this particular cantor made the effort to learn what the Church was teaching about sacred music.

At last year’s Mass for the Altar Servers, the kids complained to my father about the music. Yes, it was P&W. The kids said that it just didn’t feel like Mass. It didn’t even feel Catholic as far as they were concerned. It was a band that made lots of noise and had little to do with what was happening at the altar. The kids, for their part, were happy to use the Worship III hymnal.

When I raised my question to Archbishop Rajith, he knew full well what I was talking about concerning the lack of sacred music. Just because one works for the Congregation in Rome, that doesn’t make him so far removed from problematic situations. Evidently, music has become a problem to the point that the Holy See will be issuing a document on it early next year.

 

[VociMike]

I guess I said this when awnsering a previous post. Many are called to ministry at different levels. Some are called to the full time work for God, others have wordly responsibilities and desires that they will satisfy first. Reading the comments of Catholic musicians just as with Priest and Nuns in some parts of the world you are running out of organ players. Would a organ player in a jazz trio be more likely to give up time to serve his church if he enjoyed what he was tasked to play? I believe that more would.

But might he not just as likely look forward to playing totally different, set-apart-for-God music? Variety is, after all, the spice of life. I doubt many good musicians insist on playing (or singing) in just one genre.

 

[VociMike]

So Gregorian chant is the model? What exactly does that mean? As I have always understood it, the “model” is not reality. It is the “ideal,” but every thinking person understands that the “ideal” is not always attainable.

Three or four people singing together can “attain” Gregorian chant. Even a single singer can “attain” it. Monks with zero musical training have been “attaining” it for centuries, as have been people in the pews.

I doubt that having musicians and parishes say “Well, Gregorian chant is the model, but since we assume we can’t do that let"s just always do something totally different and with no connection whatsoever to the model.” is what the Church has in mind.

 

[4Squarebaby]

But might he not just as likely look forward to playing totally different, set-apart-for-God music? Variety is, after all, the spice of life. I doubt many good musicians insist on playing (or singing) in just one genre.

Few do, but most play for fun. If they do not enjoy what they do are the willing to step up and serve or will they be satisfied just to come to church once a week? The professional musician is rare and he has time constraints against giving time for rehersal. Many will step up for their home church, others will just limit their service to attendence as does the amatuer musician.

The musician is becoming as rare as any other minister. Churches with different priorities are often willing to hire him away. If the genre of music your church employs is rare, the number of musicians available will be rare. No need to replay the piano v organ skill debate but take my church as an example. Every musician on the praise team is a converted guitar player. When our bass player left to go to school a SDA friend stepped in but quickly found out that real bass players were in demand and a larger church hired him away from us.

 

[snhs]

Just as with anyother ministry the music ministry is suffering from a shortage of people willing to serve. At a minumum they give up all their free time for two days a week to serve. Unlike other ministries the skill of the musician is in demand by both the secular society and other churches willing to pay for that skill. Many see themselves just as the Israeli tribe which was ineffect professional worship leaders.

It is easier to get someone to volunteer to do something they like rather then dislike but is told is good. In the end do you pay for that skill or just accept that your church will have to accept recordings or less technically demanding music being played in it?

Firstly I think your two days a week is in most cases unrealistic. Where the hours/nature of the post are such that the person couldn’t reasonably be expected to carry out the duties on a voluntary basis then by all means a stipend of some sort is appropriate. And if the Church/Cathedral decides to offer a paid position then that’s entirely their decision.

However if you are going to volunteer for a post or function at Mass, or accept the position in the full knowledge that it does not come with a salary then it’s inappropriate to start lambasting others about it just because they happen to think the music is inappropriate for the Liturgy.

It’s quite simple you accept that they’re there on a voluntary basis, just as we accept that the Altar boys at a local Parish might not be as good at serving/coordinating things as Msg. Marini and his team at the Vatican. I don’t think any of the documents speak of a demanding level of music being required for the Mass, I’d far rather hear a simple traditional hymn on an organ, if need be purely on the main manual, rather than most of the stuff forced on Parishes by P&W groups. If the music satisfies the criteria the Church has set then it doesn’t matter if it’s the most complex piece ever written or one of the simplest.

 

[snhs]

Few do, but most play for fun. If they do not enjoy what they do are the willing to step up and serve or will they be satisfied just to come to church once a week? The professional musician is rare and he has time constraints against giving time for rehersal. Many will step up for their home church, others will just limit their service to attendence as does the amatuer musician.

The musician is becoming as rare as any other minister. Churches with different priorities are often willing to hire him away. If the genre of music your church employs is rare, the number of musicians available will be rare. No need to replay the piano v organ skill debate but take my church as an example. Every musician on the praise team is a converted guitar player. When our bass player left to go to school a SDA friend stepped in but quickly found out that real bass players were in demand and a larger church hired him away from us.

All the more reason not to bother with having a ‘praise team’ then. One or two organists or pianists behind a keyboard, it really isn’t that difficult if people put their minds to it, or even one or two singing Gregorian Chant.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

Lord I Lift Your Name on High?? My God, that’s a favorite of the Word Faith protestant church I attended for awhile! It’s disturbing. Don’t get me wrong- I like Christian rock, punk, and metal. But I wouldn’t want to hear it at Mass! Why can’t they have a regular mass, and then maybe a separate ‘praise & worship’ thing afterward, at least? As young as I am, I still don’t want Mass to be ‘spiced up’ with modern music. I want it to feel as solemn and prayerful as possible. I’m going to worship God, not hear a rock concert or otherwise be ‘entertained’.

I love Mass, and I want traditional music at Mass, but I have wished there were a separate praise and worship event or service once in a while to attend.

 

[4Squarebaby]

All the more reason not to bother with having a ‘praise team’ then. One or two organists or pianists behind a keyboard, it really isn’t that difficult if people put their minds to it, or even one or two singing Gregorian Chant.

Actually keyboard players and competent drummers are the hardest positions to fill in my area and they demand the highest price for their services. It is no wonder that most P&W music is guitar driven and gospel music is losing its traditional Hammond B3 organ sound. We make do with the skill level of the weakest link on the team. Or dispence with a traditional voicing to bring the total package to a higher level. The skill level of those willing to serve effects everything from the key we play in to the rythmn and phrasing of a song. It makes perfect sense to me that the Catholic Curches are suffering a shortage of organist, for the most part that instrument is only used in church. So who brings those skills?

The key is are people willing to put their minds to it? With less childhood music education there is a smaller base of musicians to call upon. While you can accept a less professional sound will your congregation or will music cause them to drift somewhere else?

In the Catholic Church is it acceptable that a Catholic not go to his local church but the Catholic Church down the road because the Priest is a better speaker or the music ministry has a higher musicianship level?