Praise Music Sounding Secular

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Someone said that some rhythms of praise songs are inspired from the world and are not okay for God. Like Duranguense, it is a genre of Spanish secular music but there are some songs that are praise songs with that genre. Or gospel rap sounding like secular rap isn’t okay either.

Is that okay?

Or since it’s praise music for God, it is acceptable?

:blessyou:
 
Only my personal opinion here:

I don’t think it’s that the rythms are inherently wrong anymore than Christmas trees are inherently wrong. I think what IS wrong with a lot of praise music is that it is not very good music and usually even poorer when it comes to the lyrics. It speaks to the feet and the emotions (or rather reinforces your current emotional state or one you wish to enter) but does it nourish the soul? Does it overwhelm anyone’s soul with it’s sublimity or beauty? Nah. But some of it is quite cool. Like Snoopy.
All my best . . .
 
Only my personal opinion here:

I don’t think it’s that the rythms are inherently wrong anymore than Christmas trees are inherently wrong. I think what IS wrong with a lot of praise music is that it is not very good music and usually even poorer when it comes to the lyrics. It speaks to the feet and the emotions (or rather reinforces your current emotional state or one you wish to enter) but does it nourish the soul? Does it overwhelm anyone’s soul with it’s sublimity or beauty? Nah. But some of it is quite cool. Like Snoopy.
All my best . . .
I think we are the only ones who get caught up in what instruments God might like or accept as worship, which begs the question “Who do we think we are?”. I have had people tell me that we shouldn’t play that music because God would find it offensive, and I’m like “Your kidding, right?”. Here are some lyrics from a contempory praise and worship song, tell me if it doesn’t talk to the soul,

Beholding Your beauty
Is all that I long for
To worship You Jesus
Is my sole desire
For this very heart
You have shaped for your pleasure
Purposed to lift Your Name higher

Here in surrender
In pure adoration
I enter Your courts
With an offering of praise
I am Your servant
Come to bring You glory
As is fit for the work of Your hands

[Chorus 1:]
Now unto the Lamb
Who sits on the throne
Be glory and honor and praise
All of creation resounds with the song
Worship and praise Him
The Lord of lords

Spirit now living
And dwelling within me
Keep my eyes fixed
Ever on Jesus’ face
Let not the things of this world
Ever sway me
I’ll run 'til I finish the race
 
Believe it or not, this discussion is as old as music in church. I think, rather than condemning music that doesn’t sound like what we’re used to, we should be grateful that composers in new idioms are called to worship. I still (mostly) prefer an organ and a choir to drums and guitars, but that’s a personal preference that I don’t have to justify theologically. If I don’t like it, I’ll listen to something else.
 
There’s a time for very reverent music and a time for music that comes straight from the heart of the human. God gave us our voices, our rhythm and our dancing feet. Are we not to offer them back to Him in praise? Personally, for each style of music in which praise music is written, I see it as bringing that style into God’s presence and making it sacred. Were the aching spirituals of the American slaves not “good enough” for God? Are the simple trusting hymns of tent revivals not “good enough” for God? The Mexican folk hymns in processions to Guadalupe? Remember the widow who offered a single coin, all she had, in the temple. She wasn’t educated, she wasn’t important, she was destitute and probably had dirt under her fingernails. By the measurement of “What’s good enough for God”, her gift was worthless. God didn’t think so, though, did He?
 
The proper way to approach that question is to ask what is the reason for using secular-sounding music (or instrumentation), and what is the likely response from the listeners.
 
Here are some lyrics from a contempory praise and worship song, tell me if it doesn’t talk to the soul…
It talks to the soul! Those are some good lyrics 👍 Is the music as good? What is the title, and artist? No doubt, its what is in our hearts that matters most to God. Although, at the same time, someone’s music can affect what’s in others’ hearts too; so its not like a blank check to do whatever pleases us. But I like listening to the Christian Contemporary music channel. It has great singers, great melodies and harmonies, and a nice variety of good music, all with moral and uplifting lyrics - which is more than we can say for the rest of the new music out there. 😦
 
BTW, we also need to draw a firm distinction (as the Church does) between liturgical music and religious music in general.
 
The original liturgical musician was the Psalmist, who used simple string and percussion instruments and voice.

When I was young, I used to love E. Power Biggs playing Bach with the stereo cranked up loud, but now I can’t listen to it even in church. Something about the organ’s resonance that’s physically painful and makes me really nervous. Definitely not conducive to praise and worship!
 
In the middle ages, the same piece of music would be sung with French words as a love song at a banquet, with Latin words in Church, and sped up and played on instruments for dancing.

Many hymns were taken from popular ballads of the day. For example “O sacred head now wounded…” was sung to a love song, “Innsbruck, I now must leave thee.” Simon and Garfunkle came up with an entirely different set of lyrics for the same tune.

Considering that in Western music there are only 12 different semitones in an octave, and there are only so many permuations of them, of course there’s going to be crossover between sacred and secular music.
 
“Star of the County Down”, an English folk song, became “I Heard the Voice of Jesus.”. “Greensleeves”. with just a single note change became “What Child Is This?” I’m not absolutely sure of this, but I heard or read somewhere that “Riu Riu Chiu” began as a Spanish drinking song.
 
I think the issue is more with if it sounds too secular for the liturgy. In terms of outside of the liturgy, I don’t think there is a problem with the music at all. There are some religious works in the classical style with are absolutely beautiful and inspiring, but wouldn’t be acceptable for mass because it is too much for liturgy or can’t be toned down or refined in order for it to be acceptable.

In regards to secular melodies being converted for use either for hymns, sacred/secular chorales, etc. this has been happening for centuries. The only music that originally started out as music for worship (in almost any kind of faith) is the various forms of chant. All other forms of accepted/appropriate sacred music used in the liturgy did not have those origins (and I’m not saying that’s bad). What usually occurred was that composers had to learn how to refine the music in order for it to be acceptable as sacred music - not just as religious music. Otherwise, it would eventually not be permitted. Each time a new form of music would come about, it would “creep” into the liturgy and stay there for a while without much fine-tuning of the style. Then eventually the Church would review and say whether or not it should be used. (I know I’m explaining this very simplistically). That’s how polyphony started to come about. It was originally a secular style of music and sounded a bit different from what we hear in the sacred repertoire today - much more boyant and frivolous in some respects, plus people weren’t used to hearing the harmonies. It was banned by about three popes earlier on and the performance style of it was described by contemporaries during the 1200s as “liscivious” and lust-provoking. It wasn’t until Guillame de Machaut came onto the scene and really refined the style that it could be acceptable for Mass and is now held up there along with chant.

So, perhaps if future composers can refine the more secular-sounding religious music today so that it can become sacred music for liturgy, there won’t be as much controversy about it. But again, this kind of controversy regarding new music is nothing new. That music which couldn’t be refined throughout the centuries was eventually just thrown out for use in liturgy and that music which could be, was kept. The same will happen with today’s music.
 
“Star of the County Down”, an English folk song, became “I Heard the Voice of Jesus.”. “Greensleeves”. with just a single note change became “What Child Is This?” I’m not absolutely sure of this, but I heard or read somewhere that “Riu Riu Chiu” began as a Spanish drinking song.
And ‘Pange Lingua’ (“Sing my tongue the Saviour’s Glory”) was to the tune of a marching song sung in the Roman army.
 
The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass has its own particular standards for music. Musicam Sacram makes these observations:
  1. Musicians will enter on this new work with the desire to continue that tradition which has furnished the Church, in her divine worship, with a truly abundant heritage. Let them examine the works of the past, their types and characteristics, but let them also pay careful attention to the new laws and requirements of the Liturgy, so that "new forms may in some way grow organically from forms that already exist,"41 and the new work will form a new part in the musical heritage of the Church, not unworthy of its past.
  1. The new melodies for the vernacular texts certainly need to undergo a period of experimentation in order that they may attain a sufficient maturity and perfection. However, anything done in churches, even if only for experimental purposes, which is unbecoming to the holiness of the place, the dignity of the Liturgy and the devotion of the faithful, must be avoided.
The document also notes the following regarding instruments:
  1. In permitting and using musical instruments, the culture and traditions of individual peoples must be taken into account. However, those instruments which are, by common opinion and use, suitable for secular music only, are to be altogether prohibited from every liturgical celebration and from popular devotions.44
Thus, there are parameters, unfortunately, they are often ignored by those who. while sincerely believe that this genre is acceptable, perhaps have not noted that Pope Paul VI wisely observed that not everything is fit to enter the threshold and, as Pope Benedict XVI, himself, said in Sacramentum Caritatis, certainly as far as the liturgy is concerned, "we cannot say that one song is as good as another.
 
And ‘Pange Lingua’ (“Sing my tongue the Saviour’s Glory”) was to the tune of a marching song sung in the Roman army.
Just a slight clarification… it wasn’t actually the melody, but more of the rhythm and the stress-accents, with alternating triple meter that were used which resembled the marching song, since it was originally intended to be used for procession. It basically resembled the use of meter in rhymed, classical/Latin poetry, which was also used in a developed new style of hymnody during Acquinas’ time. Today the rhythm and stress-accents are not usually employed and sung in a more plainchant style.
 
The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass has its own particular standards for music. Musicam Sacram makes these observations:

The document also notes the following regarding instruments:

Thus, there are parameters, unfortunately, they are often ignored by those who. while sincerely believe that this genre is acceptable, perhaps have not noted that Pope Paul VI wisely observed that not everything is fit to enter the threshold and, as Pope Benedict XVI, himself, said in Sacramentum Caritatis, certainly as far as the liturgy is concerned, "we cannot say that one song is as good as another.
Ultimately, however, the practical application of these norms is done by the bishop, who is the chief liturgist of the diocese. I have yet to find a bishop who has publicly disallowed the use of guitars or Praise and Worship music in liturgy. Neither the Magisterium nor the USCCB has made any specific statements about guitars or praise and worship music specifically AFAIK.

To make a comparison, I would say the use of guitar and praise music in liturgy is at least as popular as holding hands during the Our Father, and the Magisterium HAS ruled definitively and specifically (and repeatedly, I think) that holding hands during the Our Father is not allowed.
 
The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass has its own particular standards for music. Musicam Sacram makes these observations:

The document also notes the following regarding instruments:

Thus, there are parameters, unfortunately, they are often ignored by those who. while sincerely believe that this genre is acceptable, perhaps have not noted that Pope Paul VI wisely observed that not everything is fit to enter the threshold and, as Pope Benedict XVI, himself, said in Sacramentum Caritatis, certainly as far as the liturgy is concerned, "we cannot say that one song is as good as another.
And once again, I will state that these statements are very vague. Forgive me for continuing to hammer this home, but I really don’t care to step down on this issue.

Example of “vagueness”–Specifically WHICH instruments are, by common opinion and use, suitable for secular music only? Where’s the list?

And WHO are those people allowed to voice “common opinion”? The Magisterium? They’re not exactly common. The Pope? He’s just one man, hardly representative of “common opinion.” Musicians? Professional or amateur? Fans? Secularists? Where’s the list of those who are qualified to be part of “common opinion?”

benedictgal, you interpret those documents in a very narrow way, to mean that only certain instruments are appropriate for Catholic Mass, and that’s fine. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, and you are certainly entitled to argue in favor of it. You do raise a powerful point when you say that Pope Benedict despises all rock music. However, I can raise the point that Pope John Paul II didn’t seem to mind the “rock music” at World Youth Days Masses. I can also raise the point that when Pope Benedict was in the U.S., he didn’t condemn “secular sounding” music that was used at the various Masses. The Pope’s words about music are his opinions, that’s all. They are not binding on the faithful.

When I first read the documents, long before getting involved with CAF and reading benedictgal’s posts, I interpreted them in a very open way, to mean that almost all instruments are appropriate, since there are very few instruments in this day and age that are strictly secular (Jew’s Harp…that’s about the only I can think of.)

benedictgal, I admit that you have been a Catholic longer than I have, so you do know more. But I have talked to other musicians and priests who have been around longer than you and I, and they agree with my open interpretation of these documents.

Here’s what I DO know is fact: the final word in any parish concerning Mass music belongs to the priest. What he says goes. That’s what Church teaching is, like it or not.
 
BTW, my response is based upon Sacrosanctum Concilium #22:
    1. Regulation of the sacred liturgy depends solely on the authority of the Church, that is, on the Apostolic See and, as laws may determine, on the bishop.
  1. In virtue of power conceded by the law, the regulation of the liturgy within certain defined limits belongs also to various kinds of competent territorial bodies of bishops legitimately established.
  1. Therefore no other person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove, or change anything in the liturgy on his own authority.
 
And once again, I will state that these statements are very vague. Forgive me for continuing to hammer this home, but I really don’t care to step down on this issue.

Example of “vagueness”–Specifically WHICH instruments are, by common opinion and use, suitable for secular music only? Where’s the list?
The “vagueness” has been a major critique by most people who are concerned about the music liturgy since Vat II and even with the subsequent docs that came out afterwards. It is one of the things which still perpetuate this particular, ongoing controversy. Because of the vagueness it has created a more liberal interpretation of what can be used. Although the Musicam Sacram does specify that the newer music must “grow organically” from previous forms which make more sense in terms of people who are musicians, especially when you look at how sacred music in the past had to be refined to reflect more of what was accepted previously. But for those who aren’t really musicians or who aren’t musicians at all, that term can mean a variety of things and leaves it open.
And WHO are those people allowed to voice “common opinion”? The Magisterium? They’re not exactly common. The Pope? He’s just one man, hardly representative of “common opinion.” Musicians? Professional or amateur? Fans? Secularists? Where’s the list of those who are qualified to be part of “common opinion?”
Again another one of those things in the documents which have people who truly want to do the right thing for the Church pulling their hair out. It was always, “It should be done this way, however…” thus leading to the ambiguity. For me, it should be common opinion of real musicians who are leading experts both in the field of music AND of liturgy, and also of the Pope since he is the head of the Church and in the past popes have banned certain styles of music as well as other specifics in music (tri-tone for example) until the music could be refined, etc. That said, the ambiguity of the documents do not specify, thus the vagueness again.
Here’s what I DO know is fact: ** the final word in any parish concerning Mass music belongs to the priest. ** What he says goes. That’s what Church teaching is, like it or not.
Sometimes, sadly, that is the case. It’s either that or lose your job. At the moment, I see that there seems to be more of a crackdown, though, which has been needed. And there is the natural human reaction of trying to resist it. That said, the priest does have to submit and listen to his bishop or the authorities he has put in charge within his diocese. For instance, like in our diocese the bishop has been trying to work hard at this, with having our director of worship in charge who is very well-versed and knowledgable of what should be used at mass especially since he has come from Rome. But they are still getting resistance, much of it from parishes in the suburbs. When you are given a bit more freedom, it’s hard to give it back once the higher ups realized it went a bit too far and try to reign it in. So, if one is a music director or even a parishioner at a parish and knows what the bishop and his director of worship requires for the Mass, it is the responsibility for one to at least make it known to the pastor (who may or may not already be aware of it.) At that point it is up to the pastor to do what he wills of the information, by doing more research, etc. and then if the changes don’t occur and after speaking with them again, then perhaps it should be reported to the DofW.
 
BTW, my response is based upon Sacrosanctum Concilium #22:
And, my response is based on the Instrumentum Laboris, the document that the Fathers of the 2005 Synod on the Eucharist used:
  1. Some responses particularly mentioned the use of musical instruments, referring to the general guidelines contained in the Constitution Sacrosanctum concilium.89 In this regard, a certain appreciation was often voiced in the Latin tradition for the organ, whose majestic sound adds solemnity to worship and is conducive to contemplation. Some responses also made reference to experiences associated with the use of other musical instruments in the liturgy. Positive results in this area were achieved with the consensus of competent ecclesiastical authority, who judged these instruments proper for sacred use, in keeping with the dignity of the place and the edification of the faithful.
In other responses some lamented the poor quality of translations of liturgical texts and many musical texts in current languages, maintaining that they lacked beauty and were sometimes theologically unclear, thereby contributing to a weakening of Church teaching and to a misunderstanding of prayer. A few responses made particular mention of music and singing at Youth Masses. In this regard, it is important to avoid musical forms which, because of their profane use, are not conducive to prayer. Some responses note a certain eagerness in composing new songs, to the point of almost yielding to a consumer mentality, showing little concern for the quality of the music and text, and easily overlooking the artistic patrimony which has been theologically and musically effective in the Church’s liturgy.
And these comments came from bishops, mind you.
 
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