Pray for Abdul Rahmen

[JSmitty2005]

pro_universal:

JSmitty,

How does your proposal to destroy Islam fit with the Ecumenical spirit of Vatican II? What do you think Pope John Paul II would’ve had to say about someone coming to him with a plan to destroy Islam?

And…out of curiousity, how do you think islam will be destroyed?

Are you Catholic? :crying:

 

[Mike_D30]

pro_universal:

Uh, no, I made the comparison accurate to the discussion.

You are not claiming that individual muslims are behind attacks; you are claiming that islam as a whole motivates individuals to attack.

The analogy with the skin would go beyond just saying “asians enslave people” and to saying “asians enslave people because they are asian and that’s what being asian does to you”.

Now that it’s more explicit, do you see the connection?

Uhh no you didn’t, you are the king of red herring’s, you never address a point, you twist what people write, readdress it into an argument they never made, and defeat it. It’s very dishonest, and fruitless to debate someone who can’t answer simple questions.

 

[pro_universal]

Blacks is destroying themselves. Everyday that a father sends his ten year old into a sader dinner to kill whites, or a White is shot does more damage to Blacks than we ever could. Blacks will attack America until even the bed wetting liberals want to throw them out of the country. The Blacks will over stay there welcome and be sent back to Africa for another 400 years. They’ll be expelled from Europe and America until they can live peacefully with thier neighbors. That won’t happen until a full blown reformation to Black culture.

Hey Mike, let me show you just how offensive and bigoted this comment is by keeping your format, but changing the subject matter to race instead of religion.

Now do you see the point I was making with your asian-slave analogy?

 

[JSmitty2005]

pro_universal:

JSmitty,

How does your proposal to destroy Islam fit with the Ecumenical spirit of Vatican II? What do you think Pope John Paul II would’ve had to say about someone coming to him with a plan to destroy Islam?

And…out of curiousity, how do you think islam will be destroyed?

#1 - You know not the nature of Vatican II.

#2 - There has never been a pope that I know of who has not desired the conversion of the world nor one that desires a world of religious pluralism.

#3 - By the power of the Blessed Virgin Mary Islam will be destroyed. Don’t forget, she’s got the moon under her feet.

"In the end, my Immaculate Heart WILL TRIUMPH!!!"

 

[pro_universal]

Mike_D30:

Uhh no you didn’t, you are the king of red herring’s, you never address a point, you twist what people write, readdress it into an argument they never made, and defeat it. It’s very dishonest, and fruitless to debate someone who can’t answer simple questions.

I didn’t twist what you wrote, I explained how what you wrote didn’t really fit the situation.

I can’t help responding if you say something that’s wrong. It’s not “twisting your words” to point out that you are in error.

 

[Mike_D30]

pro_universal:

Hey Mike, let me show you just how offensive and bigoted this comment is by keeping your format, but changing the subject matter to race instead of religion.

Now do you see the point I was making with your asian-slave analogy?

Good thing I never wrote that…

How about I go through everything you write, insert different words and see how much I can twist what you write?

See how ridiculous and dishonest you are?

I would never stoop to that level of nonsense.

You put in black tomake me some racist, but the word black makes no sense there, last I checked blacks weren’t suicide bombing and beheading Christians. Seriously grow up.

 

[pro_universal]

#1 - You know not the nature of Vatican II.

Great, then explain to me what I’m missing regarding muslims. Maybe you can tell me how “destroy islam!” fits in with Vatican II, since you seem to have a grasp.

#2 - There has never been a pope that I know of who has not desired the conversion of the world nor one that desires a world of religious pluralism.

Okay, so explain what John Paul II was doing kissing a Koran.

#3 - By the power of the Blessed Virgin Mary. Don’t forget, she’s got the moon under her feet.

If you think the Mother of God is going to come down and serve your violent agenda, I think she has something to tell you about her son’s message.

 

[pro_universal]

Mike_D30:

Good thing I never wrote that…

How about I go through everything you write, insert different words and see how much I can twist what you write?

See how ridiculous and dishonest you are?

I would never stoop to that level of nonsense.

The purpose was to show you that simply substituting the word “Black” for “muslim” makes your piece into a racist rant. That’s all it took…a “find” and “replace” operation to make a piece of racist propaganda.

What does that tell you about the quality of the thinking behind it? How well reasoned is that post if it reads just like a racist rant in form?

 

[Mike_D30]

pro_universal:

I didn’t twist what you wrote, I explained how what you wrote didn’t really fit the situation.

I can’t help responding if you say something that’s wrong. It’s not “twisting your words” to point out that you are in error.

Yes you did, my analogy was perfect in defining your logic.

1. Christians were brutal 400 years ago, so you believe that takes away our right to speak out against violent Islam.
2. I asked you if saya Asians started enslaving blacks if a white person spoke agaisnt it would it be right if soemone said “you’re white you enslaved blacks 400 years ago, not shut your mouth you hypocrite”?

That analogy is perfect to what you are defending here.

 

[Mike_D30]

pro_universal:

The purpose was to show you that simply substituting the word “Black” for “muslim” makes your piece into a racist rant. That’s all it took…a “find” and “replace” operation to make a piece of racist propaganda.

What does that tell you about the quality of the thinking behind it? How well reasoned is that post if it reads just like a racist rant in form?

It made no sense I can do the same for what you write.

Go re-read what you did, tell me it makes any sense at all, seriously? Blacks don’t send their sons off to suicide bomb, or behead Christians. It was simply stupid…

 

[pro_universal]

Mike_D30:

Yes you did, my analogy was perfect in defining your logic.

1. Christians were brutal 400 years ago, so you believe that takes away our right to speak out against violent Islam.
2. I asked you if saya Asians started enslaving blacks if a white person spoke agaisnt it would it be right if soemone said “you’re white you enslaved blacks 400 years ago, not shut your mouth you hypocrite”?

That analogy is perfect to what you are defending here.

1. That’s not my argument. Wrong. Reread my posts.
2. Not even close. That’s the same as 1. I don’t know why you even made a number 2, because that’s the same point you made in 1, and it’s equally wrong.

My argument is that it’s hypocritical to force islam to be held accountable for every bad deed muslims do, while disowning every bad deed done in the name of Christianity to leave the religion spotless. “Islam teaches this…” statements to support your claims are based on zero research or reliance on muslim authorities, so the actual difference isn’t at issue here. If you ask a muslim, they say their religion promotes peace and tolerance just like ours.

Now why do we get to disown all the bad things done in the name of our religion (Like rape and murder of hundreds of thousands ten years ago…this is hardly an ancient problem), while they have to answer for all the bad things individual muslims do?

 

[pro_universal]

Mike_D30:

It made no sense I can do the same for what you write.

Go re-read what you did, tell me it makes any sense at all, seriously? Blacks don’t send their sons off to suicide bomb, or behead Christians. It was simply stupid…

If you think any of my writing has been in the form of racist propaganda, feel free to take the same liberty (one word replacement) to show how.

 

[Mike_D30]

pro_universal:

As for Christian teaching, this is a perfect example of what I was talking about. Muslims kill apostates with the sanction of every Muslim authority for centuries, and you say “that’s not real Islam!”

brother, the same goes for your point. Why are you forcing all Christians to own the Nazi’s, if Islam doesn’t have to own its members’ crimes?

I did a little find a replace of my own, and very easily turned your Muslim apologist rant into sounding just like ME!

Thanks for the idea, who needs integrity anyway?

 

[pro_universal]

Mike_D30:

I did a little find a replace of my own, and very easily turned your Muslim apologist rant into sounding just like ME!

Thanks for the idea, who needs integrity anyway?

Uh, that doesn’t sound like you at all. Actually I’ll own that post completely. Perfectly valid point with Christian and Muslim reversed.

You edited out the conclusion, but that’s a perfect set up for it. The set up being:

It’s hypocritical and wrong to force one religion to own all its bad deeds, while simultaneously wiping clean the other religion in question of all the bad things done in its name.

Excellent, you made something I like and support just as much as the first thing I wrote.

 

[Contarini]

pro_universal:

Face it, this thread is about bashing Islam like every other one cestusdei posts on this forum.

I’ve criticized cestusdei before, and I don’t like his methods one bit.

But this is a real issue–it’s about a man’s life, not “bashing Islam.”

And it’s perfectly legitimate to point out that there are several Muslim countries throughout the world where apostasy from Islam carries the death penalty. There is, so far as I know, currently no Christian country that has such a law. This is a valid point of comparison.

Of course all Islam can’t be indicted for this. And of course Christians need to bear responsibility for the atrocities we have committed. But it’s legitimate to observe that Christianity has proven far more ready to abandon violent and intolerant aspects of its tradition than Islam has. This should be of very serious concern to Muslims, Christians, and everyone else!

Edwin

 

[pro_universal]

But this is a real issue–it’s about a man’s life, not “bashing Islam.”

Agreed. But the discussion hasn’t been about how to help him, how to help end oppression in Afghanistan, or anything similar…what’s followed has been a tirade against all muslims, for the most part.

There is, so far as I know, currently no Christian country that has such a law. This is a valid point of comparison.

It is, but not one that should automatically lead us to the conclusion that Islam is somehow inherently more violent than Christianity towards apostacy. I would say that an honest look at history leads one to conclude that embracing religious freedom in the Christian world (at least in government) was the product of centuries of religious violence, followed by radical secularization. I think it’s quite possibly the case that we are where we are in terms of religious freedom because we out-killed ourselves with religious intolerance.

And the products of secularization in the Christian world managed to rack up the largest death toll in recorded history not too long ago.

This should be of very serious concern to Muslims, Christians, and everyone else!

Absolutely, and I’d like to invite the muslims on this board and everywhere to tell us what they think are the root causes of oppression in the muslim countries, and how we can help them to defeat it.

 

[chb03c]

Pro,

I think the original discussion of this thread was, by using Doctorine and Scripture of both Islam and Christianity, weather or not Islam has a just system of handling people who Convert. While it might be true that some Christians in the past have committed acts of violence. It is not true to say the religion of Christianity accepts theses acts. Since there is no doctorine or scripture passage that supports it. However according to the source posted by inJesus www.islamonline.net Islam(or a denomination of Islam) does indorse the killing of converts to another religion. I believe this was pointed out very clearly with sources. The witch hunt document that you posted was discredited due to the web site you were using. This was pointed out clearly as well in the above posts. In conclusion Christianity does not support the killing of converts to another religion, however according to islam.net Islam does accept this teaching.

 

[Muslim]

Sorry, bud, but you may want to go back and reread the history books to see under what religion science flourished.
[/quote]

–
*A. Encouragement of Scholarship (studying) within Islam

The Muslims were encouraged by the Prophet Muhammad himself to "seek learning even as far as China". In the area of medicine, the Prophet Muhammad also encouraged a scientific approach. He said, "For every disease, Allah has given a cure," and scientists were encouraged to find those cures. This attitude toward learning and research was a powerful reason that science developed so much under Islam. Moreover, Islam encouraged learning in order to read the Qur'an, which begins: "Recite!" (which is also translated: "Read!").

Here are some more Hadith (sayings of the Prophet Muhammad) which encouraged learning:

    "He who pursues the road of knowledge Allah will direct to the road of Paradise... The brightness of a learned man compared to that of a mere worshiper is like that of a the full moon compared to all the stars.... Obtain knowledge; its possessor can distinguish right from wrong; it shows the way to Heaven; it befriends us in the desert and in solitude, and when we are friendless; it is our guide to happiness; it gives us strength in misery; it is an ornament to friends,protection against enemies.... The scholar's ink is holier than the martyr's blood.... Seeking knowledge is required of every Muslim....

---

source:
sfusd.k12.ca.us/schwww/sch618/ScienceMath/Science_and_Math.html

sorry Bud, you need to learn history.

 

[JSmitty2005]

pro_universal:

Great, then explain to me what I’m missing regarding muslims. Maybe you can tell me how “destroy islam!” fits in with Vatican II, since you seem to have a grasp.

Okay, so explain what John Paul II was doing kissing a Koran.

If you think the Mother of God is going to come down and serve your violent agenda, I think she has something to tell you about her son’s message.

I don’t think you understand that Vatican II didn’t change anything with regard to doctrine, morals, or evangelization. Islam will be destroyed indirectly if not directly by the rise of the New Christendom that will result in the Great Chastisement that Our Lady warned us about at Fatima. The world has not repented, so…it’s coming! John Paul II kissing the Koran was not a very wise thing to do in my opinion. However, in the Middle Eastern culture, this is seen as a sign of respect when receiving a gift. Even the Coptic Catholics over there weren’t offended by this gesture and they’re not very fond of Islam considering they’ve been under its persecution for several hundred years now (like poor Abdul Rahmen). Finally, who ever said there was going to be violence? Haven’t you ever heard of spiritual warfare? How about the Church Militant? Are you not a soldier of Christ? My friend, you need not remind me of Our Lord’s message. Try reading Matthew 10:34 and consider these words of St. Louis de Montfort:

Mary must become as terrible as an army in battle array to the devil and his followers, especially in these latter times. For Satan, knowing that he has little time - even less now than ever - to destroy souls, intensifies his efforts and his onslaughts every day. He will not hesitate to stir up savage persecutions and set treacherous snares for Mary’s faithful servants and children whom he finds more difficult to overcome than others.

 

[jimmy]

1. That’s not my argument. Wrong. Reread my posts.

1. Not even close. That’s the same as 1. I don’t know why you even made a number 2, because that’s the same point you made in 1, and it’s equally wrong.

My argument is that it’s hypocritical to force islam to be held accountable for every bad deed muslims do, while disowning every bad deed done in the name of Christianity to leave the religion spotless. “Islam teaches this…” statements to support your claims are based on zero research or reliance on muslim authorities, so the actual difference isn’t at issue here. If you ask a muslim, they say their religion promotes peace and tolerance just like ours.

Now why do we get to disown all the bad things done in the name of our religion (Like rape and murder of hundreds of thousands ten years ago…this is hardly an ancient problem), while they have to answer for all the bad things individual muslims do?

You still have not said that you are against what they are doing. Untill you say you are against what they are doing then it is perfectly reasonable that you agree with it.