Prayer for the Universal Indult

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JKirkLVNV said:
And IF you come across the NOers attacking the TLMers (for their LOVE of the TLM or the TLM itself, NOT attacking bad or misleading information), then I would be glad to read it. I’ll be listening to the crickets chirp till you get back to me.
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Actually, since I now have those people on ignore, their posts don’t show up for me anymore. So a search won’t do any good.
 
cyberwolf001 said:
Then you have someone like me that doesn’t really mind the Novus Ordo but feels the TLM should be widley avalible for those that want it.

Peter’s Rock is after all rather large.

Also I’d love to see the Novus Ordo tighten up some and somthing done about the liturgal abuse.

Edit: 50 post people! :extrahappy:
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That I can agree with. At Mass today, for example, the noise level was most distracting. Im all for kids going to Mass, but if you cant control your screaming child after a few moments, I think the ushers should be asking you to leave. There does indeed need to be more reverence sought for in the Mass, like also giving ushers permission to refuse entry to those who are dressed like they are clubbing. I think real measures need to be taken, Im not sure Latin is one of them. I think the problem is more attitude these days.
 
JKirkLVNV said:
You can look through this one, an excellent example of how NO folks defend the NO without dumping on the TLM. Then, notice some of the TLMers.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=135732&highlight=Bgus+ordo

%between%
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Just so it’s not one-sided, you should read this from a now locked thread on clerics and the TLM
Originally Posted by Rykell View Post
Excellent observation, NC. Who in their right minds would want to attend a liturgy with a host of irreverent red-necked bigots? I would rather take my chances in the NO where the people are at least in control of their tempers.
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Yup. There are people out there who criticize those who attend the TLM.
 
The Mass in Latin was and is the highest form of worship in the Western Church.

Over nearly two thousand years, prayers, hymns, Gregorian and Polyphonic chant were developed - by people who spoke several languages - all to instill a sense of beauty and awe in worship of Our Lord.

People who do not “want a return of Latin” have no idea how much Latin they use in everyday English. Of course, they are unaware of history - the Norman invasion of England in 1066 had the consequence of doubling in size the English vocabulary.

I think that, in the entire world, there are few people who complain about hearing or using a non-English language more than Americans.
 
paramedicgirl said:
Just so it’s not one-sided, you should read this from a now locked thread on clerics and the TLM

Yup. There are people out there who criticize those who attend the TLM.
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Never fear, ParamedicGirl, I’m going to post that thread as well. I think when the reader goes through it, he’ll see that the poster you quote was talking about why the TLM might be a turnoff to some, namely because of the smug arrogance of some “traditionalists.” I think posting the entire thread will prove that context (and I mean from the first post).

Here you go:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=139020
 
JKirkLVNV said:
Never fear, ParamedicGirl, I’m going to post that thread as well. I think when the reader goes through it, he’ll see that the poster you quote was talking about why the TLM might be a turnoff to some, namely because of the smug arrogance of some “traditionalists.” I think posting the entire thread will prove that context (and I mean from the first post).

Here you go:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=139020
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And you don’t think the smug arrogance is both ways? What are you missing? Calling TLM 'ers irreverent, redneck bigots isn’t smug arrogance? It’s not judgemental?
 
JW10631 said:
The Mass in Latin was and is the highest form of worship in the Western Church.** Highly subjective. It is beautiful, but that’s my subjective opinion, as well. I think it’s even lovelier being able to hear and understand the Mass in one’s own langauge, without following along in a book, being able to make the responses in one’s own tongue, but that’s just me. **

Over nearly two thousand years, prayers, hymns, Gregorian and Polyphonic chant were developed - by people who spoke several languages - all to instill a sense of beauty and awe in worship of Our Lord. **I don’t disagree with that. I simply don’t think we have to have Latin for the Mass to be beautiful. **

People who do not “want a return of Latin” have no idea how much Latin they use in everyday English. Of course, they are unaware of history - the Norman invasion of England in 1066 had the consequence of doubling in size the English vocabulary. Now, with respect, are you sure of that? I mean that they have no idea? Are you certain you aren’t making an assumption. I have a history and political science background, with minors in religion and English (I ayum kinda thmart!). I’m completely aware of the debt our language owes to Latin. And I have heard of the Norman invasion (my ancestors were the invaders).

I think that, in the entire world, there are few people who complain about hearing or using a non-English language more than Americans.
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I teach Hispanic speakers. Spanish is a lovely language. I’m fascinated by language (Latin, French, Portugese, Italian, Romanian, Russian, even Tolkien’s made up langauges. German, not so much). I just want to be able to continue to hear the mass in my own tongue, the language in which I think and reason. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. But that’s NOT the point, is it? The point is the smugness and arrogance of some who advocate for it and for the TLM (poor TLM, it isn’t that rites fault, of course, that some of her devotees are putting the rest of us right off the concept).

Of course, your post couldn’t possibly be accused of any degree of smugness or arrogance, so obviously, I’m not refering to you.
 
paramedicgirl said:
And you don’t think the smug arrogance is both ways? What are you missing? Calling TLM 'ers irreverent, redneck bigots isn’t smug arrogance? It’s not judgemental?
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Contextually, do you really, truly believe that poster was talking about all TLMers? Really, in your heart of hearts? I think the context of the entire thread would fail to bear that out. But alright, that’s ONE for your argument, Paramedicgirl.
 
JKirkLVNV said:
I teach Hispanic speakers. Spanish is a lovely language. I’m fascinated by language (Latin, French, Portugese, Italian, Romanian, Russian, even Tolkien’s made up langauges. German, not so much). I just want to be able to continue to hear the mass in my own tongue, the language in which I think and reason. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. But that’s NOT the point, is it? The point is the smugness and arrogance of some who advocate for it and for the TLM (poor TLM, it isn’t that rites fault, of course, that some of her devotees are putting the rest of us right off the concept).

Of course, your post couldn’t possibly be accused of any degree of smugness or arrogance, so obviously, I’m not refering to you.
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The point is JKIRK, that we have a right to express the fact that we love the Mass in Latin as much as you love the Mass in English.

The point is that as much as you find the NO appealing, reverent and beautiful, that we find the TLM appealing, reverent and beautiful.

I see nothing smug or arrogant about saying that.
 
JKirkLVNV said:
Contextually, do you really, truly believe that poster was talking about all TLMers? Really, in your heart of hearts? I think the context of the entire thread would fail to bear that out. But alright, that’s ONE for your argument, Paramedicgirl.
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No, not* all *TLM’ers. But he *was *talking about more than one. After all, he did use the plural form.
 
Here’s some more:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=136192&highlight=NO+Mass

In this one, even one who would self-identify as a traditionalist comes to the defense of the NO against his fellow “traditonalists.”

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=133355&highlight=NO+Mass

You can mine some gems here. Again, their love for the TLM cannot be expressed without being rude about the NO:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=113667&highlight=NO+Mass

This ranges from simply contempt for the NO Mass to outright misinformation about the NO Mass:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=126625&highlight=NO+Mass

You said you’d search the forums. Do you need more? I’m keeping my godson this evening, but I’ll try to provide more, if you need them.
 
paramedicgirl said:
No, not* all *TLM’ers. But he *was *talking about more than one. After all, he did use the plural form.
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As I said, I think the thread YOU cite more than proves MY point, dear friend.

Understand, I’m not bashing the TLM. I’m not bashing Latin. I’m not bashing traditionalism (though I agree with Pope Benedict XV that Catholic needs no qualifiers). I’m not a liberal. I believe and hold to be true every doctrine and dogma that Holy Mother Church proclaims. My assertion (both now and originally) is simply this: many (read: most) of the traditionalists who post on these threads exhibit such an arrogant, smug attitude that it actually damages any good that they try to do in their support of the TLM and it turns people off to the idea. They are also gradually turning some off who were generally supportive of the extention of the Indult(read: me, as I can’t really speak for anyone else, but I’d bet my pension most would agree), but are now wondering WHY.
 
paramedicgirl said:
The point is JKIRK, that we have a right to express the fact that we love the Mass in Latin as much as you love the Mass in English.

The point is that as much as you find the NO appealing, reverent and beautiful, that we find the TLM appealing, reverent and beautiful.

I see nothing smug or arrogant about saying that.
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Then I would gently suggest that you go back and read JW10631’s post.
 
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