Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him ..Mary or Jesus?

[AshleyBelle]

As for a few of your points “bud” I am going to use the words from the links I provided, because they explain it very well.

Worshipping and bowing down to images?

catholic.com/library/Do_Catholics_Worship_Statues.asp

*"People who oppose religious statuary forget about the many passages where the Lord commands the making of statues. For example: “And you shall make two cherubim of gold *; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece of the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be” (Ex. 25:18–20).

David gave Solomon the plan “for the altar of incense made of refined gold, and its weight; also his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord. All this he made clear by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all, all the work to be done according to the plan” (1 Chr. 28:18–19). David’s plan for the temple, which the biblical author tells us was “by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all,” included statues of angels.

Similarly Ezekiel 41:17–18 describes graven (carved) images in the idealized temple he was shown in a vision, for he writes, “On the walls round about in the inner room and [on] the nave were carved likenesses of cherubim.”

The Religious Uses of Images

During a plague of serpents sent to punish the Israelites during the exodus, God told Moses to “make [a statue of] a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it shall live. So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live” (Num. 21:8–9).

One had to look at the bronze statue of the serpent to be healed, which shows that statues could be used ritually, not merely as religious decorations.

Catholics use statues, paintings, and other artistic devices to recall the person or thing depicted. Just as it helps to remember one’s mother by looking at her photograph, so it helps to recall the example of the saints by looking at pictures of them. Catholics also use statues as teaching tools. In the early Church they were especially useful for the instruction of the illiterate. Many Protestants have pictures of Jesus and other Bible pictures in Sunday school for teaching children. Catholics also use statues to commemorate certain people and events, much as Protestant churches have three-dimensional nativity scenes at Christmas.

If one measured Protestants by the same rule, then by using these “graven” images, they would be practicing the “idolatry” of which they accuse Catholics. But there’s no idolatry going on in these situations. God forbids the worship of images as gods, but he doesn’t ban the making of images. If he had, religious movies, videos, photographs, paintings, and all similar things would be banned. But, as the case of the bronze serpent shows, God does not even forbid the ritual use of religious images.

It is when people begin to adore a statue as a god that the Lord becomes angry. Thus when people did start to worship the bronze serpent as a snake-god (whom they named “Nehushtan”), the righteous king Hezekiah had it destroyed (2 Kgs. 18:4).
What About Bowing?

Sometimes anti-Catholics cite Deuteronomy 5:9, where God said concerning idols, “You shall not bow down to them.” Since many Catholics sometimes bow or kneel in front of statues of Jesus and the saints, anti-Catholics confuse the legitimate veneration of a sacred image with the sin of idolatry.

Though bowing can be used as a posture in worship, not all bowing is worship. In Japan, people show respect by bowing in greeting (the equivalent of the Western handshake). Similarly, a person can kneel before a king without worshipping him as a god. In the same way, a Catholic who may kneel in front of a statue while praying isn’t worshipping the statue or even praying to it, any more than the Protestant who kneels with a Bible in his hands when praying is worshipping the Bible or praying to it.
**

 

[AshleyBelle]

The second commandment

(From the Library)

*Hiding the Second Commandment?

Another charge sometimes made by Protestants is that the Catholic Church “hides” the second commandment. This is because in Catholic catechisms, the first commandment is often listed as “You shall have no other gods before me” (Ex. 20:3), and the second is listed as “You shall not take the name of the Lord in vain.” (Ex. 20:7). From this, it is argued that Catholics have deleted the prohibition of idolatry to justify their use of religious statues. But this is false. Catholics simply group the commandments differently from most Protestants.

In Exodus 20:2–17, which gives the Ten Commandments, there are actually fourteen imperative statements. To arrive at Ten Commandments, some statements have to be grouped together, and there is more than one way of doing this. Since, in the ancient world, polytheism and idolatry were always united—idolatry being the outward expression of polytheism—the historic Jewish numbering of the Ten Commandments has always grouped together the imperatives “You shall have no other gods before me” (Ex. 20:3) and “You shall not make for yourself a graven image” (Ex. 20:4). The historic Catholic numbering follows the Jewish numbering on this point, as does the historic Lutheran numbering. Martin Luther recognized that the imperatives against polytheism and idolatry are two parts of a single command.

Jews and Christians abbreviate the commandments so that they can be remembered using a summary, ten-point formula. For example, Jews, Catholics, and Protestants typically summarize the Sabbath commandment as, “Remember the Sabbath to keep it holy,” though the commandment’s actual text takes four verses (Ex. 20:8–11).

When the prohibition of polytheism/idolatry is summarized, Jews, Catholics, and Lutherans abbreviate it as “You shall have no other gods before me.” This is no attempt to “hide” the idolatry prohibition (Jews and Lutherans don’t even use statues of saints and angels). It is to make learning the Ten Commandments easier.

The Catholic Church is not dogmatic about how the Ten Commandments are to be numbered, however. The Catechism of the Catholic Church says, “The division and numbering of the Commandments have varied in the course of history. The present catechism follows the division of the Commandments established by Augustine, which has become traditional in the Catholic Church. It is also that of the Lutheran confession. The Greek Fathers worked out a slightly different division, which is found in the Orthodox Churches and Reformed communities” (CCC 2066).
*

 

[AshleyBelle]

And then you asked me the question "well would you pray to Mickey Mouse? " I’m sure you were only joking, but I’ll play along and give you an honest answer.

I explained about the communion of saints and the family of God.
If Mickey Mouse lived a life of holiness and after his death was cannonized as a saint, I would absolutely pray for him to intercede. He would be a brother in Christ, alive and sharing communion in heaven with my Lord.
I think you will find all of your claims against the church have been heard before. I truly hope you will take time to read what we believe, and not what you've been told we believe. God bless you.

 

[mercygate]

And then you asked me the question "well would you pray to Mickey Mouse? " I’m sure you were only joking, but I’ll play along and give you an honest answer.

I explained about the communion of saints and the family of God.
If Mickey Mouse lived a life of holiness and after his death was cannonized as a saint, I would absolutely pray for him to intercede. He would be a brother in Christ, alive and sharing communion in heaven with my Lord.

I think you will find all of your claims against the church have been heard before. I truly hope you will take time to read what we believe, and not what you’ve been told we believe. God bless you.

This discussion should really go to its own thread for discussion of SDA beliefs.

 

[AshleyBelle]

This discussion should really go to its own thread for discussion of SDA beliefs.

Sorry your thread was highjacked, Leeann! Bud, if you have questions, please do start another thread. We’ve been having a good dialogue with leeann, and I’d like to hear what she has to say

 

[adstrinity]

Oct 28, '08, 9:45 pm
Leeann http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/statusicon_cad/user_offline.gif vbmenu_register(“postmenu_4351329”, true);
Senior Member
Join Date: August 12, 2008
Posts: 443

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon1.gif Re: Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him …Mary or Jesus?
Quote:
Originally Posted by adstrinity forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cab/viewpost.gif
*The question was to whom would the Apostles appeal? It was past tense. Back then, they would have had no idea. Today, if Mary says no, I think the Apostles will take their cue from Mary.

Leeann: Here is the question:

In view of the Pope saying - “we will not know to whom to turn”… my question is, **if the Apostles were standing next to the Pope, **to whom do you think they would be advising him to “turn” too …to Mary…or Jesus?

We must all pray to Mary that we are found worthy to be with Her in Heaven.

Why???
The Catholic church has taught you this???
What about being found worthy enough to be with HIM in Heaven?

Please Holy Mother of God, pray for us sinners so that we may have the strength to do your Son’s work here on Earth so that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.
Amen.*

Hmmm…I think we’re getting the issue better now. You’re scared of Mary. You have been brainwashed against Her.

It’s something that all of us who were once Protestant first went through, but we, however persuaded, by the intercession of the Holy Spirit, come to accept Her as our Mother.

I think that this post of yours is very telling and hopefully you can read what you posted (your second reply here) and see the issue.

 

[bud02]

Sorry your thread was highjacked, Leeann! Bud, if you have questions, please do start another thread. We’ve been having a good dialogue with leeann, and I’d like to hear what she has to say

Pope John Paul II referred to Mary as “Mediatrix of all grace” which flows to “all the faithful” (John Paul II, on the occasion of the liturgical memorial of Our Lady of Czestochowa, L’Osservatore Romano, 26 August 2001, source]. The Roman Pontiff taught, “As maternal Mediatrix, Mary presents our desires and petitions to Christ, and transmits the divine gifts to us, interceding continually on our behalf.” (John Paul II, General Audience Address, 24 September 1997, source).

Whereas the Catechism’s traditional presentation of the commandments for memorization are:

1. I am the Lord your God: You shall not have strange Gods before me.
2. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
3. Remember to keep holy the Lord’s Day.
4. Honor your father and mother.
5. You shall not kill.
6. You shall not commit adultery.
7. You shall not steal.
8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
9. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife.
10. You shall not covet your neighbor’s goods.

From you own traditional resources Mary replaces/intercedes for Jesus, also there is no mention of graven images.
So long as the RCC insist on tradition as more authoritative than than scripture we will never see eye to eye.
You will continue to reference tradition and neglect the Bible. The 3 legged stool you refer to would be the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. not (quote) the legs of scripture, tradtion, and magesterium.

Mark 7-5
Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, “Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands?” 6 He answered and said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: 'This people honors Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. 7 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men. 8 “For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men*–the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.” 9 He said to them, "All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition.

1 Tim 2-5
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus

Col 2-8
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils:
Speaking lies in hypocrisy: having their conscience seared with a hot iron:
Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth." (I Timothy 4:1-3)

 

[bud02]

Oct 28, '08, 9:45 pm
Leeann http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/statusicon_cad/user_offline.gif vbmenu_register(“postmenu_4351329”, true);
Senior Member
Join Date: August 12, 2008
Posts: 443

Hmmm…I think we’re getting the issue better now. You’re scared of Mary. You have been brainwashed against Her.

If I am brain washed then I am so from the Bible.
Perhaps you should read my above post and ask yourself who is brain washed???

 

[MerickOWA]

If I am brain washed then I am so from the Bible.
Perhaps you should read my above post and ask yourself who is brain washed???

How do your bible quotes refer to praying to anyone?

Maybe I’m missing the connection.

 

[Leeann]

AshleyBelle
The church has not changed, nor has it “added” to the Word of God She has grown in understanding ,she has grown in devotion, and she has grown in visibility! In infancy, the church still looked similar to the way it does now, just as if you were to look at your baby pictures, you would still see a face that was very clearly YOURS, only younger

You contradict yourself by saying the church has not changed – and then go on to point out how it has grown. Obviously that is change.
If you look at the Catholic church of today, you will see nothing that is comparable to the church that the Apostles established.

AshleyBelle:
We had the sacraments, and we had authority. We had the message of Christ, and after a couple hundred years of SPEAKING, teaching, and living the faith through traditions, the council came together and with the guidance of the holy spirit was able to give us the holy scriptures

“Had” – is a very good word to use here – any authority would be null and void as soon as what He commissioned His Apostles to teach/preach became altered in any way – that being the means of salvation for all mankind. The ones that faithfully held too that pure, true gospel, are indeed members of His Church and are in Him in spirit. They remain united in Him in spirit and are very visible throughout the world and He will be with until the end of time, as He promised.

Ashley Belle:
The church today is still the church of the apostles. There is not a single teaching or doctrine you will find that goes against what Christ revealed to us, what the apostles learned from Christ, or what Scriptures reveal. The Church is the body of Christ. The Church triumphant, the church suffering, and the church militant

I agree, His Church is the body of Christ…all true and faithful believers, wherever they may worship.

 

[AshleyBelle]

Pope John Paul II referred to Mary as “Mediatrix of all grace” which flows to “all the faithful” (John Paul II, on the occasion of the liturgical memorial of Our Lady of Czestochowa, L’Osservatore Romano, 26 August 2001, source]. The Roman Pontiff taught, “As maternal Mediatrix, Mary presents our desires and petitions to Christ, and transmits the divine gifts to us, interceding continually on our behalf.” (John Paul II, General Audience Address, 24 September 1997, source).

Whereas the Catechism’s traditional presentation of the commandments for memorization are:

1. I am the Lord your God: You shall not have strange Gods before me.
2. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
3. Remember to keep holy the Lord’s Day.
4. Honor your father and mother.
5. You shall not kill.
6. You shall not commit adultery.
7. You shall not steal.
8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
9. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife.
10. You shall not covet your neighbor’s goods.

From you own traditional resources Mary replaces/intercedes for Jesus, also there is no mention of graven images.
So long as the RCC insist on tradition as more authoritative than than scripture we will never see eye to eye.
You will continue to reference tradition and neglect the Bible. The 3 legged stool you refer to would be the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. not (quote) the legs of scripture, tradtion, and magesterium.

Bud,

Since this thread is about the pope imploring our blessed mother, I will stick to your questions pertaining to that subject only.

If you want to discuss whether the Catholic church practices “traditions of men” or whether the Catholic church is the anti Christ or whether the Catholic church believes a big flying fish from the sky came down and promised us eternal salvation through the flying spaghetti monster, please start a seperate thread.

Now…for the subject at hand…

The title of Mary as “mediatrix” has not been proclaimed as official church teaching. It is a title some like to give to Mary to help us understand her very special role in salvation history.

Notice, I said her “special role” in salvation history… This does not imply we are saved through Mary, as you seem to assume.

I would encourage you to reasearch the subject of the relationship between Mary as the ark of the new covenant, and as the New Eve.

Also, please look back in the posts on this thread, there are some great explanations of Mary's role and model to us of what it means to be a perfect follower of Christ.

I’m not telling you to believe Catholic teaching. I’m asking you to try to understand what we teach before you TELL US what we believe.

 

[AshleyBelle]

You contradict yourself by saying the church has not changed – and then go on to point out how it has grown. Obviously that is change.
If you look at the Catholic church of today, you will see nothing that is comparable to the church that the Apostles established.

You are still assuming we only believe the Church to be the 'visible" church The church is visible and invisible, and it is the body of Christ.
What has not, and will not change, is the absolute, invisible truth the church guards and holds.

What WILL develop and grow, is our visible understanding and application OF that truth.

Christ is truth, and the Church as His body, is also Christ.

The invisible qualities that are similar to the time of the apostles are the sacramental nature of our church, the heirarchy of bishops and authority, the gospel presented by Christ, and the traditions handed to us to understand that gospel. Without the traditions and magisterium, instituted BY Christ, you basically have the Bible and everyone to fend for themselves as to what it means.

“Had” – is a very good word to use here – any authority would be null and void as soon as what He commissioned His Apostles to teach/preach became altered in any way – that being the means of salvation for all mankind. The ones that faithfully held too that pure, true gospel, are indeed members of His Church and are in Him in spirit. They remain united in Him in spirit and are very visible throughout the world and He will be with until the end of time, as He promised.

You’re right… Any authority WOULD be null/void if it tried to alter Christ’s truth in any way.
That is exactly why Christ promised us the holy spirit would protect His church, His body, from all error through the GIFT of infallibility. Not infallible men, but infallible truth.

I agree, His Church is the body of Christ…all true and faithful believers, wherever they may worship.

His Church is the Church HE instituted.. Any believers outside of the church who worship, are worshipping because He first gave us THE Church. They are not still in communion with the body of Christ.. They have chosen they only need an arm or a foot or a portion of the body, and built their faith off this fragment of the truth. Regardless, they are still a part of the body, though they are "apart" from the body.

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **

Leeann Post #144

www.vatican website
Catechsim of the Catholic Church
Part One

The Profession of Faith

Article 9 – I Believe in the Holy Catholic Church

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter

AshleyBelle:
Now… to say “there is no salvation outside the church” is absolutely true. That is because Christ, is the HEAD of the church! The church is Christ’s body. What is Christ, without the body? We cannot be connected to Christ without the church.

Sure we can and are!
There are many faithful, believers who are connected to Jesus without the Catholic church.
His Grace knows no boundaries and He is indeed the HEAD of His church…the body of true and faithful believers are His Body…wherever they may be found.

AshleyBelle:
So does that mean we think there’s no salvation for protestants or anyone who isn’t catholic?
No!

Yes!
The catechism now allows that God’s Grace somehow does affect those not within the membership of the Catholic Church – (amazing isn’t it…and…isn’t that good of them to do realize that ……now…I stress now….as this more charitable view hasn’t always been practiced or taught), however, even now this realization has still got some limitations - anyone that is not in full communion with the Catholic Church, as a member, is considered not to be in full communion with Christ. By that reasoning alone, it shows that you must be a member of the Catholic Church in order to obtain salvation.

www.vatican website
Catechsim of the Catholic Church
Part One
The Profession of Faith
Article 9 – I Believe in the Holy Catholic Church
Who belongs to the Catholic Church?
836 “All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God (check out the ‘Credo of the People of God’– (Catholic Encycopledia). . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God’s grace to salvation.”
**837 **"**Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. **Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body’ not ‘in heart.’"
**838 **“The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.” **Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.”**With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound “that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist.”

AshleBelle:
It means that we HAVE salvation, because Christ gave us the church, because Christ connected us as His body…we share in the suffering of Christ.

We HAVE been given the means of salvation by believing in Christ’s blood sacrifice and the pure, true gospel message that was preached by His Apostles, not because of the church we belong too.

AshleyBelle:
Now that we have been united to the cross from His work on the Cross, salvation is available and offered for the whole world! Without this connection, without the church, there can be no salvation because there would be no body, we would all be scattered and dis-unified.

All true believers that are in Christ are already united in Him, with or without the Catholic church…that is HIS Church…the body of all true and faithful believers.

AshleyBelle:
Salvation is still OFFERED outside of the church, BECAUSE of the church.

Salvation is still offered outside the church, (Catholic Church), BECAUSE of God’s Grace and Power and Authority and His Will. All the things that cannot be confined by any one organization on this earth.

****2 Pet. 1: By which He has granted to us His precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape the corruption that is in the world, which is passion, and become partakers of the divine nature.

Wonderful, reassuring scripture for all believers!

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
I know He is interested in a personal relationship first and foremost with only you, once that’s in affect, it will be up to you to decide how much communion you feel is necessary with other believers, whether they be saints living here on earth or in heaven, to meet those ‘needs’ that you described in your previous post.

utunumsint:
I disagree with this assessment. I think he is intensly interested in our loving our neighbour. So much so that he associates himself with the poor and says that if we neglect them, we neglect him. How much more necessary then is it for us to pray for our neighbours, for their sanctification, for their good? How much more should we, as the poor in spirit go to those who are rich in spirit, to help us improve our relationship with Christ?

Put it this way, if we can cause “One of these little ones to fall away from the faith” and Christ curses those who do this with the words, “it would be better that one such as this should have a loadstone tide around their neck and thrown into the sea.” then how much more should we praise those who strengthen our faith, who are not a source of scandal, who direct us on the right path!!! Christ does not operate alone!!!

I think you misunderstood what I meant in the quote you posted of mine above, which was in reference to your own personal relationship with Him first and foremost and the needs that you expressed in your previous post.

I agree that “Christ does not operate alone” when it comes to being involved and concerned for our neighbours. When we are in union with Him in spirit, the desire to serve others in His honour and in His name and by His enabling power….should flow automatically from and through us to everyone we come in contact with.

If our own personal union is not firmly established in Him,……anything that we attempt to do is by our own human effort.

 

[AshleyBelle]

Sure we can and are!
There are many faithful, believers who are connected to Jesus without the Catholic church.
His Grace knows no boundaries and He is indeed the HEAD of His church…the body of true and faithful believers are His Body…wherever they may be found.

Yes!
The catechism now allows that God’s Grace somehow does affect those not within the membership of the Catholic Church – (amazing isn’t it…and…isn’t that good of them to do realize that ……now…I stress now….as this more charitable view hasn’t always been practiced or taught), however, even now this realization has still got some limitations - anyone that is not in full communion with the Catholic Church, as a member, is considered not to be in full communion with Christ. By that reasoning alone, it shows that you must be a member of the Catholic Church in order to obtain salvation.

www.vatican website
Catechsim of the Catholic Church
Part One
The Profession of Faith
Article 9 – I Believe in the Holy Catholic Church
Who belongs to the Catholic Church?
836 “All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God (check out the ‘Credo of the People of God’– (Catholic Encycopledia). . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God’s grace to salvation.”
**837 **"**Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. **Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body’ not ‘in heart.’"
**838 **“The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.” **Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.”**With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound “that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist.”

We HAVE been given the means of salvation by believing in Christ’s blood sacrifice and the pure, true gospel message that was preached by His Apostles, not because of the church we belong too.

All true believers that are in Christ are already united in Him, with or without the Catholic church…that is HIS Church…the body of all true and faithful believers.

AshleyBelle:
Salvation is still OFFERED outside of the church, BECAUSE of the church.

Salvation is still offered outside the church, (Catholic Church), BECAUSE of God’s Grace and Power and Authority and His Will. All the things that cannot be confined by any one organization on this earth.

****2 Pet. 1: ****By which He has granted to us His precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape the corruption that is in the world, which is passion, and become partakers of the divine nature.

Wonderful, reassuring scripture for all believers!

Leeann, first I want to say something.

THANK YOU, for at the very least, being easier to talk to than other non catholics who visit this site.
I’ve been feeling a little worn down hashing and rehashing the same anti-catholic rhetoric over and OVER and over again in circles… and it’s refreshing to talk to someone who is at least charitable and non condemning when she disagrees

Now…

I really think these issues cannot be resolved until we settle one primary dispute. And that is our definition of the word CHURCH.

We believe when Christ said “You are Peter and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of the netherworld will never prevail against it” that He was directly appointing Peter as the first “pope” as we use the term now, and establishing His ONE true, visible AND invisible church on earth. That the Body of Christ is to be unified both visibly and invisibly in belief and faith.

You interpret it to mean that He was speaking of all believers, in a more invisible sense.

So, please tell me why I need to believe YOUR interpretation of what the Church is? Why is the Catholic perspective wrong in this regard?

 

[itsjustdave1988]

In view of the Pope saying - "we will not know to whom to turn"… my question is, if the Apostles were standing next to the Pope, to whom do you think they would be advising him to “turn” too …to Mary…or Jesus?

God chose to give us his Son through Mary. The Pope and all faithful Christians piously choose to give all that they have from God back to Jesus, through Mary.

It’s not one or the other, its both. Both mother and Son, and all the angels and saints in heaven are one body, and it is that body which we turn to.

 

[MerickOWA]

You contradict yourself by saying the church has not changed – and then go on to point out how it has grown. Obviously that is change.
If you look at the Catholic church of today, you will see nothing that is comparable to the church that the Apostles established.

The argument is specifically about changes to her doctrine which you fail to demonstrate.

It is clearly demonstrated from history that the church has always understood Mary’s role in salvation. Without her “yes” to the angel, Jesus would not have been born. Do you deny that you need Mary for your salvation? If you want to claim Jesus as your savior, it would be a great insult to ignore and discount the woman that Jesus called mother.

Perhaps you should ask God why he CHOSE Mary. She didn’t ask God for the great honor of bearing Jesus. It was God who asked her.

“Had” – is a very good word to use here – any authority would be null and void as soon as what He commissioned His Apostles to teach/preach became altered in any way – that being the means of salvation for all mankind. The ones that faithfully held too that pure, true gospel, are indeed members of His Church and are in Him in spirit. They remain united in Him in spirit and are very visible throughout the world and He will be with until the end of time, as He promised.

It would be interesting to see when you believe the Church lost its authority. If the Church has no authority, then the gates of hell truly have prevailed and Jesus’s promise was not kept.

I agree, His Church is the body of Christ…all true and faithful believers, wherever they may worship.

Do you really believe the Church is nothing more than a nebulous body of believers? If so, who are we to turn to to settle disputes among believers?

Matthew 18:17

If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.

Are we to call EVERY Christian together to renounce someone who refuses to listen? How this nebulous body of believers decide on right and wrong when they are divided into 30 thousand ideas in what the Bible MEANS? Baptize or not to Baptize? Baptize Infants or Adults? Female pastors ok? Contraceptives ok? Abortion ok?

These are real questions which affect people and could have a real impact on their salvation. They’re not trival questions, and yet may Protestants can’t seem to agree on the “Truth” even tho they all have the Bible.

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
But they didn’t - in any times that are recorded after Jesus ascended into heaven, they pointed to Jesus/God……not to Mary.

Yes, but we are not time- warping….this happened just this month….in real time….and now both Mary and Jesus are in heaven……to whom would the Apostles point too?

Thanks for your thoughts!

AshleyBelle:
You realize, that while they were recording and teaching what Christ proclaimed, they were praying and living with Mary still among them Just as we now pray WITH Mary, our prayers united through the communion of saints!

But there is no evidence that this is what they did back then.
There were faithful and righteous people who had died before the Apostles in the OT times, they referred to them while encouraging the early Christians - yet they did not teach that the early church members should pray to them.

AshleyBelle:
Our blessed Mother continues to lead us to Christ. She continues to point the way, to tell us “Do whatever He tells You.” She teaches us to love Christ, to obey and to serve Him

Then why don’t you do it – ‘Do whatever He tells you’.

He tells us to “come to Him, all those who are weary and in need of rest” – He tells us
“to pray to the Father, in His name” – He tells us “to knock and the door will be open”……

The point I’m making, is if your focus is centered on Him directly in the first place,there is no need to ever have to pray to someone else and say:
“we will not know to whom to turn”, as those do, who pray to Mary.

The question being: Why then don’t you follow what she says – “do whatever He tells you.” ?

AshleyBelle:
“Hail Mary, full of Grace! Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus.” Is not just a Catholic prayer, it is the greeting directly from the Angel Gabriel! We honor Christ’s mother because we emulate Christ.

You honour Christ’s mother in this way, because this is what the Catholic church has taught you.
You are not “emulating Christ” because He never did this or taught this.

AshleyBelle:
The pope and the apostles would implore mary, as our advocate because they are saying "we are so little, if not even your Mother who loves you more than we are capable of loving will help us find you, to whom will we turn?

“Will help us find you…” ???
You mean that the Pope doesn’t know Jesus!?!

AshleyBelle:
Let me ask, who helped you find Christ? Was it a friend, a pastor? You may say “God.” Or “the Holy Spirit led me” which is true! But you must also recognize that God works through people, we are his servants, his instruments! So, who helped lead you to Christ?

By God’s Grace and unfathomable mercy and the prayers (directly to God by the way, in Jesus name – not through Mary) of faithful and true believers, outside of the Catholic Church!

AshleyBelle:
Would you say they led you to Christ, because they LOVE Christ?
Do you think they love Christ more than His own mother, who lived and suffered with Him? “Your own heart, a sword will pierce.”

Yes…because they truly know Him and what He longs to do for each one of us.

AshleyBelle:
If we cannot turn to Mary, who loved Christ so much, to help lead us to Him, then to whom will we turn?

Turn directly to Jesus, humbly, contritely, with an open spirit.
Trust HIM and what He has said: “come to Him, all those who are weary and in need of rest”,
“to knock and the door will be open”……and finally do what Mary said when she was alive and walked the earth.

 

[mercygate]

You contradict yourself by saying the church has not changed – and then go on to point out how it has grown. Obviously that is change.
If you look at the Catholic church of today, you will see nothing that is comparable to the church that the Apostles established.

“Had” – is a very good word to use here – any authority would be null and void as soon as what He commissioned His Apostles to teach/preach became altered in any way – that being the means of salvation for all mankind. The ones that faithfully held too that pure, true gospel, are indeed members of His Church and are in Him in spirit. They remain united in Him in spirit and are very visible throughout the world and He will be with until the end of time, as He promised.

I agree, His Church is the body of Christ…all true and faithful believers, wherever they may worship.

Are you the same person you were when you were an infant? Yes? Have you changed? Yes, you have changed in stature and in knowledge and in skill. But YOU are still you; the same Leeann who came into the world at the moment of your conception. The idea that any develoopment cancels the enterprise is untenable either for a human organism or for the living organism of the Body of Christ.

For example, if the Church went merrily on its way for 400 years without having a New Testament canon, would you say that closing the canon was an unacceptable “change”?

Did you read the Bruskewitz article?

 

[MerickOWA]

Leeann,

Do you believe it against the Bible to have those here on earth to pray for you?

I’m aware of many protestant churches which have prayer groups, or prayer chains. Many times, before my conversion to the Catholic Church, I would sit in a protestant service and the pastor would ask us to pray for people in the church who were in trouble and in need.

We did this sometimes even when those people didn’t ask us to pray for them. Where we wrong to get between them and Jesus? Were we acting in place of Jesus?

If these were protestants pastors asking people to pray for others, perhaps these pastors were not well versed in what the Bible says?

If you want to say its OK for people on earth to pray for others, why would you say that those in heaven can’t or won’t pray for us? Do they care less about their earthly brothers and sisters? Why wouldn’t Mary pray for us? Why wouldn’t she WANT us to ask for her support and prayers?