Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him ..Mary or Jesus?

[AshleyBelle]

But there is no evidence that this is what they did back then.
There were faithful and righteous people who had died before the Apostles in the OT times, they referred to them while encouraging the early Christians - yet they did not teach that the early church members should pray to them.

Then why don’t you do it – ‘Do whatever He tells you’.

He tells us to “come to Him, all those who are weary and in need of rest” – He tells us
“to pray to the Father, in His name” – He tells us “to knock and the door will be open”……

The point I’m making, is if your focus is centered on Him directly in the first place,there is no need to ever have to pray to someone else and say:
“we will not know to whom to turn”, as those do, who pray to Mary.

The question being: Why then don’t you follow what she says – “do whatever He tells you.” ?

When we pray, we do so "in the NAME of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit." All prayer is THROUGH Christ! We are able to SHARE our prayers through one another TO Christ because of Christ! He is the one reason any prayer is even possible!

Why do you assume that because we share our faith with all the body of Christ, both in heaven and on earth, that we are detracting from Christ?

When we pray to our Mother, we do so in the name of the father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit! Prayer is not worship…it is a conversation. Our worship is for God alone, our conversation is for all the body of Christ…including Christ Himself and all the believers that make up His body!

Our focus IS centered on Christ! We SHARE that focus with Mary, because SHE is also focused and centered on Christ! We look to her because she lived a life which teaches us how to FOCUS OUR LIVES on Christ!

All our faith, our traditions, our teachings, the church herself, exists to honor Christ and to emulate Christ throughout our lives.

We do exactly as He asks us to when He said “come to me all who labor and are heavy burdened.” We sing this very song when we DO just that! We don’t just “believe” we are doing it, or “pray” that we might do it somehow, but we physically and visibly DO come before Christ, PRESENT in the eucharist! The Eucharist is the SUMMIT of our faith!

You honour Christ’s mother in this way, because this is what the Catholic church has taught you.
You are not “emulating Christ” because He never did this or taught this.

 Christ did not honor his mother?  If He was truly God, then wouldn't He have perfectly obeyed all of God's commands?  One of them being to honor your father and your mother?

Christ obeyed Mary perfectly, and because God had filled Mary with His grace, SHE also obeyed CHRIST perfectly! :)

Through this model, we gain understanding of perfect obedience and faithfulness to our Lord

“Will help us find you…” ???
You mean that the Pope doesn’t know Jesus!?!

The Pope is Christ’s supreme SERVANT on earth! (yes, vicar means servant.) His life is filled with devotion to our Lord! And devotion to all of the faithful, in heaven and earth. He, and all the members of the Catholic church share the MOST intimate expression of our relationship to Christ through the eucharist in every mass.

By God’s Grace and unfathomable mercy and the prayers (directly to God by the way, in Jesus name – not through Mary) of faithful and true believers, outside of the Catholic Church!

We do not pray in Mary’s name…that would be blasphemous! Why does communication with God need to be limited like a two way street? We can only speak to God who can only speak to us individually? Can God not speak to my brother and through that brother reveal a truth to me? Can I not share my prayers with the saints in heaven who are sharing in glory with our Lord? Can I not pray for Mary to help me understand obedience to my Lord?

Why does a life of faith need to be limited to “me and God.” ???

This is far from Biblical, nor has it been historically practiced. A life of faith is about sharing Christ will all Christ’s body… I do not keep Christ for myself, I share Him in faith working through love with the world, as He asks!

Yes…because they truly know Him and what He longs to do for each one of us.

Turn directly to Jesus, humbly, contritely, with an open spirit.
Trust HIM and what He has said: “come to Him, all those who are weary and in need of rest”,
“to knock and the door will be open”……and finally do what Mary said when she was alive and walked the earth.

I turn to Jesus with all my heart, and I share my love for Him with all the faithful of the past, present and future. Those who love him as I do, and those whom I can LEARN FROM to love Him more!

 

[MerickOWA]

It is very evident in the Bible that the Apostles prayed for people in their Church.

Acts 8:14-15

Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, who went down and prayed for them, that they might receive the holy Spirit,

Acts 8:24

Simon said in reply, “Pray for me to the Lord, that nothing of what you have said may come upon me.”

Was Simon in error when he asked Peter to pray for him? Shouldn’t Peter have rebuked him saying “Why do you ask me to pray for you? Don’t you know that would be against God’s laws?”

Job 42:10

Also, the LORD restored the prosperity of Job, after he had prayed for his friends; the LORD even gave to Job twice as much as he had before.

Seems to be clear that praying for others is NOT against the Bible. Why do you believe that it is any different for those in heaven?

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
Leeann:
I “high lighted” the wrong words – I meant to high light the “again”.

Well…it is the Catholic church’s own paper trail, isn’t it.

It is the ONLY paper trail. It is also shared by the Churches of the East. It is the common thread of the faith, including the Gospels and the rest of the New Testament and writings that date from the 80s of the First Century. The writings are a very strong witness to the early Church.

Never the less….the paper trail is still theirs. You know what I mean. Human beings, being how we are fallible.

Leeann:
Could you restate that another way….what doctrine are you referring to here, in relation to the quote of mine you posted….sorry…I just can’t see it. Thanks

You share a very common view that development in our understanding of the faith is the equivalent of changing the faith. If you are willing to read a brief article outlining the conditions by which doctrinal development occurs, try this essay by Bishop Bruskewitz of Lincoln, Nebraska. For a deeper and more defintive treatment, John Henry Newman’s Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine is the classic work. It is widely available on line and in print. Note that all Christians accept development of doctrine insofar as they accept the doctrine of the Holy Trinity, which was not definitively set forth in final form until the Council of Chalcedon in 451 A.D. and reaffirmed at the Second Council of Constantinople in 553 A.D.

Thank you for those suggested readings. I have made note of them and will read them with interest.
Yes. I have no problem (can’t speak on behalf of other believers – but I think a lot feel the same)
with accepting anything that is set out as a doctrine in any church, as long as it can be substantiated with what is found in the scriptures.

Leeann:
And there is unity amongst all true, faithful believers, their unity is in Christ Himself.

Yes. Christ is our unity. Yet the definition of “true” unity and “true” believer, for Christians, entails a visible unity as well. Just as Christ had a visible body when He walked among us as a man on earth, so now he has a visible body in His Church.

I understand what you mean.
I believe the unity is very visible whenever we experience the fellowship of true believers in Christ, in whatever church they may be found. His love flows through them, the actions in their lives are done out of His love flowing through them and their desire to serve Him, that coupled with their peace and joy and faithfulness in times of trouble in their lives……these are all evidence and very visible signs of His Church…His spirit…in His visible Body.

Leeann:
To whom would the Apostles point the Pope’s attention too….Jesus….or Your Lady?

You persist in posing a question that is a non-starter in a Church where Communion with Christ is also Communion with the Saints. It is not a matter of Jesus “or” Mary and the saints because they are united in heart and will.

Then perhaps the question should be: When did the focus of the Catholic church shift from the message that was preached and taught by the Apostles, who were sent out by Jesus, when Mary and the saints were never mentioned as a source of help or intercession in times of crisis or need?

 

[Genesis315]

There were no Christian saints in Heaven when the Apostles were writing most the NT (with the exception of Rev., and that mentions saints, etc.).

There’s a reason why the Jews might have thought Jesus was crying out to Elijah on the Cross. Likewise, He was visited by Moses and Elijah at his transfiguration.

Further, Judas Maccabee was aided by the spirit of the prophet Jeremiah in 2 Maccabees.

This idea of being aided by holy people gone past is not foreign to the Christian faith.

 

[StMarina303ad]

zenit.org/article-23987?l=english

Excerpt from this article:

The Pope’s leading of the Supplication of the Blessed Virgin of the Rosary, a prayer written by Blessed Bartolo Longo (1841-1926) was one of the high points of this 12th pastoral trip in Italy.

“We implore you to have pity today on the nations that have gone astray, on all Europe, on the whole world, that they might repent and return to your heart,” the text of the prayer reads.

With the words of Bartolo, the Pontiff turned to Mary, saying: "If you will not help us because we are ungrateful and unworthy children of your protection, we will not know to whom to turn."

>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

In view of the Pope saying - "we will not know to whom to turn"… my question is, if the Apostles were standing next to the Pope, to whom do you think they would be advising him to “turn” too …to Mary…or Jesus?

I don’t know? The Apostles were with Mary longer than they were with Jesus and so probably knew her even better and knowing that Mary always got Jesus to do what she wanted - He never disobeyed His mother - even getting Him to do His first miracle “before His time had come”. They’d probably pick Mary. (I’m not a Catholic)

 

[Genesis315]

In regards to the OP, what is expressed here is Mary’s willingness to help anyone who stands before Christ. The point is, that if even she would not aide us, any other fellow Christian definitely would not.

If the Apostles heard that prayer they would respond that Mary will most definitely aid you and we will too!

 

[mercygate]

Never the less….the paper trail is still theirs. You know what I mean. Human beings, being how we are fallible.

But the spotless Bride of Christ has Our Lord’s own promise that the Holy Spirit will guide her “into all the truth.” And she has the promise that the gates of Hell will not prevail against her. Aside from the specific promise to give Peter the Keys of the kingdom of heaven, the Lord’s Church cannot be seen to be anything but infallible. The ancient word used by the ancient churches is “indefectible.” The doctrine of indefectibility derives by inexorable logic from Our Lord Himself.

Thank you for those suggested readings. I have made note of them and will read them with interest.
Yes. I have no problem (can’t speak on behalf of other believers – but I think a lot feel the same)
with accepting anything that is set out as a doctrine in any church, as long as it can be substantiated with what is found in the scriptures.

Yet you seem unwilling to acknowledge that Catholic scriptural references are valid. We see indefectibility in the scriptures, and apostolic authority, and apostolic succession, and all manner of things, including the Communion of Saints, that you say are not there.

I understand what you mean.

I believe the unity is very visible whenever we experience the fellowship of true believers in Christ, in whatever church they may be found. His love flows through them, the actions in their lives are done out of His love flowing through them and their desire to serve Him, that coupled with their peace and joy and faithfulness in times of trouble in their lives……these are all evidence and very visible signs of His Church…His spirit…in His visible Body.
I agree. And the Holy Spirit has a habit of not staying in the house when it comes to touching human hearts. But that is quite a different thing from doctrinal truth. For example, some of the best “Christians” I know – if you judge by their actions and their joy in the Lord – are JWs and Mormons but they are decidedly NOT Christian in any objective sense of the Name. Doctrine matters because Our Lord is Truth.

Then perhaps the question should be: When did the focus of the Catholic church shift from the message that was preached and taught by the Apostles, who were sent out by Jesus, when Mary and the saints were never mentioned as a source of help or intercession in times of crisis or need?

The focus of the Catholic faith is Jesus Christ, and the Gospel message is unchanged in its essence.

You reject the documents of the early Church, that reflect the actual lived life of the early Christians because they represent “biased” history. If you would care to show me the continuous documentation from the first century of the Presbyterian or Baptist or any other church, I will be glad to look at it. But since the Church was undivided for its first thousand years, that is a tough assignment.

It is not for this thread, but I would go back to my earlier question: Since you are so certain that veneration of Our Lady is not a practice of the apostolic Church, how do you feel about other beliefs and practices that were absolutely part of the apostolic Church: Confession to a priest; infant baptism; real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, veneration of the relics of saints . . . Don’t answer here; that’s another thread.

 

[Leeann]

Quote:
Originally Posted by adstrinity
The question was to whom would the Apostles appeal? It was past tense. Back then, they would have had no idea. Today, if Mary says no, I think the Apostles will take their cue from Mary.

Leeann: Here is the question:

In view of the Pope saying - “we will not know to whom to turn”… my question is, if the Apostles were standing next to the Pope, to whom do you think they would be advising him to “turn” too …to Mary…or Jesus?

We must all pray to Mary that we are found worthy to be with Her in Heaven.

Why???
The Catholic church has taught you this???
What about being found worthy enough to be with HIM in Heaven?

Please Holy Mother of God, pray for us sinners so that we may have the strength to do your Son’s work here on Earth so that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.
Amen.

Hmmm…I think we’re getting the issue better now. You’re scared of Mary. You have been brainwashed against Her.

It’s something that all of us who were once Protestant first went through, but we, however persuaded, by the intercession of the Holy Spirit, come to accept Her as our Mother.

I think that this post of yours is very telling and hopefully you can read what you posted (your second reply here) and see the issue.

Response Leeann:
The “Why?” one….is that the “second reply” you mean?
If it is….as I said, we should be more concerned about being found worthy enough to be with HIM in heaven.
Mary’s wonderful, I love her and have no reason to fear her.

---

 

[Leeann]

AshleyBelle:

Leeann, first I want to say something.

THANK YOU, for at the very least, being easier to talk to than other non catholics who visit this site.
I’ve been feeling a little worn down hashing and rehashing the same anti-catholic rhetoric over and OVER and over again in circles… and it’s refreshing to talk to someone who is at least charitable and non condemning when she disagrees

Now…

I really think these issues cannot be resolved until we settle one primary dispute. And that is our definition of the word CHURCH.

We believe when Christ said “You are Peter and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of the netherworld will never prevail against it” that He was directly appointing Peter as the first “pope” as we use the term now, and establishing His ONE true, visible AND invisible church on earth. That the Body of Christ is to be unified both visibly and invisibly in belief and faith.

You interpret it to mean that He was speaking of all believers, in a more invisible sense.

So, please tell me why I need to believe YOUR interpretation of what the Church is? Why is the Catholic perspective wrong in this regard?

As I stated in a previous post to someone…maybe you, but I’m not sure…with regards to that particular quote to Peter – the Catholic Church bases it on “Peter” as being the rock…(you’ve seen all the translations,etc,etc,….) – I believe and many others do, that Jesus was referring to the “statement of faith and belief” in who Jesus was(is), that Peter made in the verses just prior to that. That is what Jesus would be building His Church upon, not on “Peter” himself.

 

[Leeann]

Hi itsjustdave:

Originally Posted by Leeann
In view of the Pope saying - “we will not know to whom to turn”… my question is, if the Apostles were standing next to the Pope, to whom do you think they would be advising him to “turn” too …to Mary…or Jesus?

itsjustdave:

God chose to give us his Son through Mary. The Pope and all faithful Christians piously choose to give all that they have from God back to Jesus, through Mary.

It’s not one or the other, its both. Both mother and Son, and all the angels and saints in heaven are one body, and it is that body which we turn to.

Yes.
A different gospel altogether, not what was originally set out by the Jesus or the Apostles when they established His early churches.

 

[Leeann]

Hi merickOWA

Originally Posted by Leeann
You contradict yourself by saying the church has not changed – and then go on to point out how it has grown. Obviously that is change.

If you look at the Catholic church of today, you will see nothing that is comparable to the church that the Apostles established.

merickOWA:
The argument is specifically about changes to her doctrine which you fail to demonstrate.

see response to “justdave”

merickOWA:
It is clearly demonstrated from history that the church has always understood Mary’s role in salvation. Without her “yes” to the angel, Jesus would not have been born. Do you deny that you need Mary for your salvation? If you want to claim Jesus as your savior, it would be a great insult to ignore and discount the woman that Jesus called mother.

I don’t ignore or discount Mary.
He knows me and my intentions and how I regard His mother.

Perhaps you should ask God why he CHOSE Mary. She didn’t ask God for the great honor of bearing Jesus. It was God who asked her.

originally by Leeann:
“Had” – is a very good word to use here – any authority would be null and void as soon as what He commissioned His Apostles to teach/preach became altered in any way – that being the means of salvation for all mankind. The ones that faithfully held too that pure, true gospel, are indeed members of His Church and are in Him in spirit. They remain united in Him in spirit and are very visible throughout the world and He will be with until the end of time, as He promised.

merickOWA:
It would be interesting to see when you believe the Church lost its authority. If the Church has no authority, then the gates of hell truly have prevailed and Jesus’s promise was not kept.

Well, that’s your viewpoint, however I believe Jesus keeps His promises and is doing so right now, within the Body of His Church…all true and faithful believers.

originally by Leeann:
I agree, His Church is the body of Christ…all true and faithful believers, wherever they may worship.

merickOWA:
Do you really believe the Church is nothing more than a nebulous body of believers? If so, who are we to turn to to settle disputes among believers?

No, I don’t believe His Church is a “nebulous body of believers”…those are your words, not mine.
To those who are in authority above you within your own church, just as the Apostles set out.

***Matthew 18:17
Quote:
If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector. ***

merickOWA:
Are we to call EVERY Christian together to renounce someone who refuses to listen? How this nebulous body of believers decide on right and wrong when they are divided into 30 thousand ideas in what the Bible MEANS? Baptize or not to Baptize? Baptize Infants or Adults? Female pastors ok? Contraceptives ok? Abortion ok?
These are real questions which affect people and could have a real impact on their salvation. They’re not trival questions, and yet may Protestants can’t seem to agree on the “Truth” even tho they all have the Bible.

But many can and do.

And in a “perfect world” everyone that belongs to the Catholic Church always turns and listens and obeys what the Church tells them too? Is that what you’re saying?

 

[Leeann]

Hi mercygate:

Are you the same person you were when you were an infant? Yes? Have you changed? Yes, you have changed in stature and in knowledge and in skill. But YOU are still you; the same Leeann who came into the world at the moment of your conception. The idea that any develoopment cancels the enterprise is untenable either for a human organism or for the living organism of the Body of Christ.

Sorry, that is your opinion and I simply don’t agree with it.

Christ’s mandate was clearly set out when He commissioned His Apostles – they knew what they were to teach and preach, even more so when the Holy Spirit came on the day of Pentecost.
Any developments or new theology that came after (Marian Theology), dogmas that would
attempt to bind people again into a ritualistic form of “religion” - is not the same as what the Apostles or Jesus established in the early church.

For example, if the Church went merrily on its way for 400 years without having a New Testament canon, would you say that closing the canon was an unacceptable “change”?

Did you read the Bruskewitz article?

No. I’ve been battling a bad “flu” bug for almost a week now, and can just barely make posts here for the moment…BUT…I have saved that “article” (the site you posted) to my Bookmarks and will read it. Thanks

 

[Leeann]

Hi merickOWA

Leeann,

Do you believe it against the Bible to have those here on earth to pray for you?

I’m aware of many protestant churches which have prayer groups, or prayer chains. Many times, before my conversion to the Catholic Church, I would sit in a protestant service and the pastor would ask us to pray for people in the church who were in trouble and in need.

We did this sometimes even when those people didn’t ask us to pray for them. Where we wrong to get between them and Jesus? Were we acting in place of Jesus?

If these were protestants pastors asking people to pray for others, perhaps these pastors were not well versed in what the Bible says?

No, in fact you were doing exactly what James encouraged the early Christians to do for one another.

I have no idea what you mean by “Were we acting in place of Jesus?”

If you want to say its OK for people on earth to pray for others, why would you say that those in heaven can’t or won’t pray for us?
I have never said that.

Do they care less about their earthly brothers and sisters? Why wouldn’t Mary pray for us? Why wouldn’t she WANT us to ask for her support and prayers.

Who ever told you or taught you that Mary does pray for us?

 

[Leeann]

It is very evident in the Bible that the Apostles prayed for people in their Church.

Acts 8:14-15
Quote:
Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, who went down and prayed for them, that they might receive the holy Spirit,
Acts 8:24
Quote:
Simon said in reply, “Pray for me to the Lord, that nothing of what you have said may come upon me.”
Was Simon in error when he asked Peter to pray for him? Shouldn’t Peter have rebuked him saying “Why do you ask me to pray for you? Don’t you know that would be against God’s laws?”

??? - There’s nothing wrong with asking fellow believers to pray for us. James encouraged the early Christians to do so.

Job 42:10
Quote:
Also, the LORD restored the prosperity of Job, after he had prayed for his friends; the LORD even gave to Job twice as much as he had before.
Seems to be clear that praying for others is NOT against the Bible. Why do you believe that it is any different for those in heaven?

Because the Apostles never did it and never taught or advised any of the early Christians to do it and Jesus never mentioned it either.

 

[Leeann]

Heading off to have some food - and to snuggle into my comfy sofa with a box of tissues for the nite! I promise to to respond …may just be a bit later in doing so…
:stretcher:

 

[mercygate]

As I stated in a previous post to someone…maybe you, but I’m not sure…with regards to that particular quote to Peter – the Catholic Church bases it on “Peter” as being the rock…(you’ve seen all the translations,etc,etc,….) – I believe and many others do, that Jesus was referring to the “statement of faith and belief” in who Jesus was(is), that Peter made in the verses just prior to that. That is what Jesus would be building His Church upon, not on “Peter” himself.

And you say WE believe things just because we are taught a certain way?

We do not separate Peter from his confession because grammatically, it cannot be done. Historically it was never done until somebody started doing linguistic contortions to make the verse separate Peter from his confession and Peter from Our Lord’s promise.

If you go to St. Peter’s crypt in the Vatican, you will see inscribed in the arch above it the words: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” It’s not like the Catholic Church thinks that Peter is somehow above his own confession.

 

[mercygate]

Hi mercygate:

Are you the same person you were when you were an infant? Yes? Have you changed? Yes, you have changed in stature and in knowledge and in skill. But YOU are still you; the same Leeann who came into the world at the moment of your conception. The idea that any develoopment cancels the enterprise is untenable either for a human organism or for the living organism of the Body of Christ.

Sorry, that is your opinion and I simply don’t agree with it.

I’m not here to make you agree with anything.

Christ’s mandate was clearly set out when He commissioned His Apostles – they knew what they were to teach and preach, even more so when the Holy Spirit came on the day of Pentecost.
Any developments or new theology that came after (Marian Theology), dogmas that would
attempt to bind people again into a ritualistic form of “religion” - is not the same as what the Apostles or Jesus established in the early church.

"Bind people again into a ritualistic form of “religion”? Ah. We DO have a long way to go here. It’s good for me to encounter statements like this because it reminds me how far I have come myself.

mercygate:

For example, if the Church went merrily on its way for 400 years without having a New Testament canon, would you say that closing the canon was an unacceptable “change”?

Did you read the Bruskewitz article?

No. I’ve been battling a bad “flu” bug for almost a week now, and can just barely make posts here for the moment…BUT…I have saved that “article” (the site you posted) to my Bookmarks and will read it. Thanks

Feel better. :flowers:

 

[AshleyBelle]

Leeann,

I hope you feel better soon! I don’t believe most things are coincidences…I have also been on CAF almost all day the past week with an awful flu bug going around our house My children are BORED because mommy is pretty much curled up with a blanket, the lap top, and a big ol’ cup of tea =P

So…I don’t think it’s coincidence that we’re both “out and down” and brought to these forums to talk about faith. Sometimes it seems like when we’re at our “littlest” God can use us for the greatest things!

 It feels to me, that when you reply, you are speaking out of a passionate presupposition that Catholics MUST be wrong.  Oh believe me, I understand that feeling well. It would be crazy to think anything else.

But in order to “get anywhere” both sides have got to sit back and honestly say, in their heads, and in their hearts…that it doesn’t matter WHICH side is RIGHT or wrong, but that the Truth would make itself evident.

So…I’m imploring you, to please sit back and drop the notion that “praying to mary = bad, wrong, detracting from Christ.” And work from the point of “I want to understand why Christians have historically turned to Mary, and what that means in their relationship with Christ.” And from that understanding, we can work towards whether it is right or wrong.

You are also coming from the presupposition that the Church is the invisible body of believers.  I agree, and I add that it is also the visible.  So instead of automatically believing I'm wrong.. I would appreciate some charity, in trying to understand WHY we believe it is right.  There are great articles on the Library here!

You presented your interpretation of the passage about Christ building His church on the rock… And I understand it. But you haven’t given me a reason to believe your interpretation is THE TRUE interpretation.

Unless you believe the holy spirit is guiding and leading you in matters of interpretting scripture, and not the millions of other believers who have interpretted it differently?

catholic.com/library/Peter_the_Rock.asp

That article gives a great explanation for how the church has historically understood this passage!

Can you provide an explanation for why we need to interpret it the way you do? The way that is fairly recent in comparison to the way the church has taught for 2000 years?

Your posts have all been stated in a very defensive tone. It’s not that we think you’re afraid of Mary, or the church, or any of us… But it does seem you are simply afraid of the POSSIBILITY that you could be wrong.

Why are you afraid? You obviously have a great, strong faith! You’ve made your love for Christ very apparent in these posts! So, why are you afraid to DEFEND your faith?

I found, as a protestant that I also became very defensive when asked to really stand up and defend what I believed and WHY I believed it. I dreaded conversations that forced me to logically explain away my ideas and beliefs. They made sense to me, why should I have to sort them out for someone else? They’re the TRUTH aren’t they? I thought that catholics were too busy being “logical” and thinking about it too hard…they had too much of an “analytical” faith…when it SHOULD be so much more simple!

But why does faith need to contradict reason? Should faith contradict reason?

So, I offer…that on this particular issue…our core disagreement, we cannot both be “right.” Either the church is both visible and invisible, founded by Christ. Or it is invisible, and your interpretation of that passage is the correct one. But we have got to accept the fact that one of us is wrong.

I’m willing to accept your interpretation if you can prove to me it is the truth. I’m willing to renounce the Catholic faith if it truly is not the faith Christ established.

Are you willing to do the same if truth is not what you presupposed it to be?

 

[itsjustdave1988]

A different gospel altogether, not what was originally set out by the Jesus or the Apostles when they established His early churches.

Unless you think your interpretation of the Gospel is infallible, I have to go with the authentic interpretation of the Gospel which has existed in every century since the advent of Christ, and reject the novel interpretations of some Protestants, which in fact are disputed by other Protestants.

See for instance,* A Protestant Pastor Looks At Mary* by Protestant pastor Rev. Charles Dickson, and *Five for Sorrow, Ten for Joy: A consideration of the Rosary *by Protestant pastor N.J. Ward. Both of these Protestant pastors recommend praying the Rosary.

The Psalmist (Ps 103:20-21; 148:1-2), invokes the heavenly hosts in prayer. So too does the author of the the book of Daniel (Dan 3:58, 86). In fact, St. John spoke to the saints in heaven according to the book of Revelation, while he was “in the spirit” on the Lord’s day. So, I too find it a pious Christian practice, in accord with Sacred Scripture and Tradition.

Lastly, the Scripture tells us exactly who we turn to, and it is a “city of the living God”…

Hebrew 12:22-24: “But*** you have come to*** Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, AND to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, AND to a judge who is God of all, AND to the spirits of just men made perfect, AND to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks more graciously than the blood of Abel.”

Notice, the Bible says we have come to the angels AND saints AND God AND Jesus. It’s as if they are all one communion of saints that we have come to, all in communion with one another and with God. Scripture tells us who we have come to as Christians, and it is an entire city which does indeed include angels and saints in heaven, in communion with God, and Jesus who said, “he who rejects you rejects me” (Lk 10:16).

So, any friend of Jesus is a friend of mine, who I can and should turn to for help, because they too belong to the body of Christ, which is the source of my salvation.

 

[MerickOWA]

??? - There’s nothing wrong with asking fellow believers to pray for us. James encouraged the early Christians to do so.

Because the Apostles never did it and never taught or advised any of the early Christians to do it and Jesus never mentioned it either.

Which is it, did James encourage believers to pray for one another or did the Apostles not teach this? If early believers were taught to pray for one another, once they died and went to heaven, did they forget that teaching?

Why do you object to the idea that believers in HEAVEN can’t pray for us… but those on EARTH can.