Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him ..Mary or Jesus?

[Leeann]

AshleyBelle:
There’s a quote from Kimberly Hahn that had a HUGE impact on me personally…
She was a faithful protestant, and before she even considered catholicism, she believed this:
“I realized that in matters of faith, you can only be moving forward, or moving backwards. Because you can NOT stand still. I prayed that God would help me to continue forward!”

original Leeann:
The only truth I know, is what I already possess and am quite content with, my communion in spirit with my Heavenly Father/Jesus Christ my Lord and Saviour/and the Holy Spirit.

Would you really think that I would give that up for anyone?

AshleyBelle:
Nobody would ask you to give that up! If they do they are NOT from God! You have a strong faith, and you love Jesus! But are you content sitting still? Do you want to only know the little bit that you know, and not seek to know Him more?

Being “content” is all fine and good! But Jesus doesn’t WANT us to just be “content!” He wants us to grow in truth and love! You say you have a communion with Him in spirit… What if you could have a TRUE communion with Him? What if you could know Him so intimately that you truely SHARED fully in everything that He is?

When I say I’m content, you some how translate that into “sitting still”.

Perhaps that may have been what happened to you, but, again that is not the way it is for everyone.

AshleyBelle:
What if Christ Himself humbled Himself for you, out of His great love, so that you could share with Him, body, blood, soul and divinity? Would you just stick to “a spiritual” communion? Or would you RUN to Him to embrace Him?

He’s already humbled Himself for me, out of His great love and we’ve “embraced” each other and continue to “be” together…through thick and thin!

 

[bud02]

It is through the blood of Christ, that mary was redeemed from the moment of her conception.

sounds like you have the cart before the horus I mean horse.

My point is that RC officially state that Mary was perfect, there for had no need of Jesus, then gave birth to him. That would mean that just as you imply Jesus is second in the heavenly line. And has to answer to his godly mother. That would also justify praying to Mary for salvation. And sadly that also means that Mary was not from the flesh or seed of Eve. She was a product of God separate from the line of Adam and Eve. And yes guanophore enmity means (positive, active, and typically mutual hatred or ill will) and bruising the serpents head with His heal is Jesus.

You dont have to look very far into pagan worship to find other mothers of god. In addition to being the fertile wife of Osiris, Isis is honored for her role as the mother of Horus, one of Egypt’s most powerful gods. Does this sound familiar. He (Horus) is often shown as an infant cradled by his mother Isis. In adulthood, he avenged his father’s murder, and became recognized as the God of civil order and justice. Each of the Egyptian pharaohs were believed to be the living embodiment – an incarnation – of Horus.

1st John 4 says you dont pass the Antichrist test as long as Mary was not a daughter of the fallen Eve, but rather Mary was a sinless for runner of Christ, just like Isis bore Horus. That means you deny Jesus came in the flesh of Eve.You have fun now and remember the official RC position that Mary was a perfect sinless mother of god her whole life. BTW from the moment of her conception is rather vague you should say from her birth so there is no error in the RC church position. People may think you mean her conception of Jesus.

 

[AshleyBelle]

If you want to tell us that by believing Mary was SAVED like the rest of us, from the moment of her conception, and God preserved her from sin that somehow we’re REALLY saying He made her LIKE GOD…go ahead.

You can say and infer what you like, but it is not what the church teaches.

 

[adstrinity]

sounds like you have the cart before the horus I mean horse.

My point is that RC officially state that Mary was perfect, there for had no need of Jesus, then gave birth to him. That would mean that just as you imply Jesus is second in the heavenly line. And has to answer to his godly mother. That would also justify praying to Mary for salvation. And sadly that also means that Mary was not from the flesh or seed of Eve. She was a product of God separate from the line of Adam and Eve. And yes guanophore enmity means (positive, active, and typically mutual hatred or ill will) and bruising the serpents head with His heal is Jesus.

You dont have to look very far into pagan worship to find other mothers of god. In addition to being the fertile wife of Osiris, Isis is honored for her role as the mother of Horus, one of Egypt’s most powerful gods. Does this sound familiar. He (Horus) is often shown as an infant cradled by his mother Isis. In adulthood, he avenged his father’s murder, and became recognized as the God of civil order and justice. Each of the Egyptian pharaohs were believed to be the living embodiment – an incarnation – of Horus.

1st John 4 says you dont pass the Antichrist test as long as Mary was not a daughter of the fallen Eve, but rather Mary was a sinless for runner of Christ. You have fun now and remember the official RC position that Mary was a perfect sinless mother of god her whole life. BTW from the moment of her conception is rather vague you should say from her birth so there is no error in the RC church position. People may think you mean her conception of Jesus.

No, it is from Her Conception that She was made sinless. Mary is perfect. You don’t believe me, ask Her yourself.

How would one show motherly qualities if the mother was not pictured with her child? A mom with an infant tells us that that mom cares and does what she is designed naturally by God to do.

 

[bud02]

If you want to tell us that by believing Mary was SAVED like the rest of us, from the moment of her conception, and God preserved her from sin that somehow we’re REALLY saying He made her LIKE GOD…go ahead.

You can say and infer what you like, but it is not what the church teaches.

Thats the teaching of your church not mine. You teach that she had a special privilege. Do you also claim to share in that special privilege? Stating (Mary was saved like the rest of us). Are you now teaching Calvinism?

She was not like the rest of us according to the RCC. She to is like Jesus without sin Of course I dont believe that.

Quote:
No sin or imperfection can be attributed to Mary

1. The Church has constantly regarded Mary as holy and free from all sin or moral imperfection. The Council of Trent expresses this conviction, affirming that no one “can avoid all sins, even venial sins, throughout his life, unless he is given a special privilege, as the Church holds with regard to the Blessed Virgin” (DS 1573). Even the Christian transformed and renewed by grace is not spared the possibility of sinning. Grace does not preserve him from all sin throughout his whole fife, unless, as the Council of Trent asserts, a special privilege guarantees this immunity from sin. And this is what happened with Mary.

 

[AshleyBelle]

Thats the teaching of your church not mine. You teach that she had a special privilege. Do you also claim to share in that special privilege? Stating (Mary was saved like the rest of us). Are you now teaching Calvinism?

She was not like the rest of us according to the RCC. She to is like Jesus without sin Of course I dont believe that.

Quote:
No sin or imperfection can be attributed to Mary

1. The Church has constantly regarded Mary as holy and free from all sin or moral imperfection. The Council of Trent expresses this conviction, affirming that no one “can avoid all sins, even venial sins, throughout his life, unless he is given a special privilege, as the Church holds with regard to the Blessed Virgin” (DS 1573). Even the Christian transformed and renewed by grace is not spared the possibility of sinning. Grace does not preserve him from all sin throughout his whole fife, unless, as the Council of Trent asserts, a special privilege guarantees this immunity from sin. And this is what happened with Mary.

She was without original sin. We don’t believe that she sinned. It doesn’t mean she isn’t like the rest of us in that she WOULDN"T HAVE sinned if God didn’t save her. Rather, HE saved her so that she was able to TURN from sin with His grace and protection.

As catholics we STRIVE for the same thing. We all strive for holiness. So…when we are confronted with sin, we TRY to avoid it. Since we don’t have the same blessing Mary had, we pretty often end up faling when tempted with sin. Sad for us…but that’s no reason to be jealous of Mary’s gift.

And yes, I claim that all of humanity shares in mary’s gift. Just not “perfectly” as she was especially blessed by God. As children of God, we ALL share in Christ’s salvation and grace offered to the whole world. As Christians, we all share in the body blood and divinity of Christ… which means we are PARTAKERS of His holiness! Pretty neat huh? That he can transform us into perfect holiness in heaven, but we can also CHOOSE to strive for holiness on earth

 

[bud02]

No, it is from Her Conception that She was made sinless. Mary is perfect. You don’t believe me, ask Her yourself.

How would one show motherly qualities if the mother was not pictured with her child? A mom with an infant tells us that that mom cares and does what she is designed naturally by God to do.

She was made sinless??? says here that see never had any, not even the original sin of Eve (see below). So that means she is not from Eves seed. In light of that she was just like Jesus but better she brought him into the world. You people should understand that this is the foundation of your faith. And it clearly says in 1 John 4 that you deny Jesus came in the flesh. If Mary had no part in sin or better the original sin of her mother Eve.

ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2bvm24.htm
The doctrine of Mary’s perfect holiness was the subject of the Holy Father’s catechesis at the General Audience of Wednesday, 19 June. This truth asserts “that Mary, free from original sin, was also preserved from all actual sin and that this initial holiness was granted to her in order to fill her entire life”, the Pope said. Here is a translation of his catechesis, which was the 24th in the series on the Blessed Virgin and was given in Italian.

You have every right from God to follow your own path. I just wish you people would agree on the path the Popes have put you on, know what you believe and quit twisting the official RCC statements!!! Be well versed in your church doctrine.

 

[MerickOWA]

My point is that RC officially state that Mary was perfect, there for had no need of Jesus,

We do believe Mary was born without original sin. This was done by God, she DID need Jesus, but God doesn’t have to conform to to humans limited understanding of chronological events.

As it states in paragraph 491 of the Catechism

“The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.”

That would mean that just as you imply Jesus is second in the heavenly line.

Jesus is the WORD and has always existed from the beginning of time. As it says in John 1:1 “In the beginning, the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

The WORD was made flesh, by virtue of the virgin birth. I don’t know how it works in your family, but the woman who gives birth to you is called your MOTHER.

It was God who chose this honor for Mary, not us. Maybe you’re directing the question at the wrong person(s).

And sadly that also means that Mary was not from the flesh or seed of Eve.

Mary had parents who had parents who had parents all the way back to Adam and Eve. She WAS a daughter of Adam and Eve, but wasn’t given their faults. Removing the stain of original sin doesn’t change who her parents were. God just chose to save her at a different point in time and in a different way.

You dont have to look very far into pagan worship to find other mothers of god. In addition to being the fertile wife of Osiris, Isis is honored for her role as the mother of Horus, one of Egypt’s most powerful gods. Does this sound familiar. He (Horus) is often shown as an infant cradled by his mother Isis. In adulthood, he avenged his father’s murder, and became recognized as the God of civil order and justice. Each of the Egyptian pharaohs were believed to be the living embodiment – an incarnation – of Horus.

The fact that pagans happen to use the term “mother of god” incorrectly doesn’t invalidate the name. Other pagans use the term “god” … does this mean we shouldn’t use that same term to refer to the TRUE God?

Mary was a woman who gave birth to Jesus who we believe is God. What would you call her if not the “Mother of God”.

1st John 4 says you dont pass the Antichrist test as long as Mary was not a daughter of the fallen Eve, but rather Mary was a sinless for runner of Christ.

As stated, we believe Mary WAS a fallen daughter of Eve who was saved by God.

To put it in a simpler way, Original sin is something we all are born with, and God can save us by helping us out of this sin through Baptism. He can also save us from this sin by PREVENTING it staining us before we’re born. Unless you want to say this is beyond God’s power, I don’t think its that hard to understand that God can chose to save us in this way. In this case its how He chose to save Mary.

You have fun now and remember the official RC position that Mary was a perfect sinless mother of god her whole life. BTW from the moment of her conception is rather vague you should say from her birth so there is no error in the RC church position. People may think you mean her conception of Jesus.

People often assume the idea of “conception” as meaning that it was Jesus’s conception, but its Mary’s conception. Just as a side note, this is due to the Church’s teaching that life begins at conception, not at birth. I wont go into the pro-life stance of the Church here, but its related. Hence, she was saved from original sin from the very start of her life … at conception.

Again, I understand you don’t see any of this directly in the Bible. Most of this teaching on Mary’s immaculate conception is due the Church’s understanding of the parallel between Mary and the Ark of the Covenant. Both were to hold the Living God. Both had to be pure in order to do so. Its also related to the angel’s greeting to Mary. It was worded to Mary as her being “full of grace”. This was not a future tense as something that was going to happen, but something that HAD happened already and was still continuing.

It is also tied into the Church’s understanding as Mary and Jesus as the New Adam and Eve. Just as the original Adam and Eve brought about death into the world, so the new Adam and Eve bring about life.

And I know you’re going to quote this and say “see”, “see”. You’re placing Mary next to or above Jesus. We simply understand that Mary’s role as important for bringing Jesus into the World and it is through Jesus we have our salvation. But, Without Mary there is no Jesus.

 

[guanophore]

Well you had better check that out with the Pope, It is the very foundation of the gospel.

That we are saved by grace, through faith? Do you think the Pope would not approve? Do you imagine that the Pope thinks differently.

You should really know what the Pope teaches.

I agree.

Have you read the Pope’s book on Jesus? I realize it is a personal testimony, and not intended as a formal “teaching” but I still think it is good to “really know what the Pope” is writing, formal or informal.

Here is complete contradiction to your statement,

Read the full post here
ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2bvm24.htm
heres another
catholicdoors.com/homilies/991208.htm

MARY WAS FREE FROM ALL PERSONAL SIN
Pope John Paul II

I am sorry, I do not see the contradiction?

Back to 1 and 2 John, the RCC denies that Jesus came in the flesh.

I am sorry, bud. You have misunderstood Catholic teaching.

You claim the Mary was without sin,

Yes.

therefor you say she was like Christ.

No. You are making an inaccurate conclusion from a faulty premise.

If this was true She could have given Her life in place of Jesus.

No. Mary is not the spotless Lamb of God. She had to be saved from sin like all of us do.

Or you could say she had no need of salvation.

One could say that, but such a one would have departed from the Apostolic faith.

Any way you look at it, if Mary was sin less Jesus was not born of the flesh.

Sorry bud. Jesus came to save us from our sins. He expects that we not remain in them. He wants us all to be cleansed from sin, just as Mary was.

And the RCC fails the Antichrist test.

Well, if it pleases you to continue to argue against your erroneous idea of what the Catholic Church teaches, then that is you perogative. Perhaps there is some reason that you cannot allow yourself to learn what the Catholic Church really teaches?

Many Christians read 1 & 2 John and thinks that, (every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God). Means that those who deny Christ only.

There are many ways to deny that Christ came in the flesh. If you are intellectually honest, and will study the early heresies of Gnosticism and Arianism, you will find that the doctrines of Mary emanate from what the Apostolic church taught about who Christ is - God in the flesh.

But I have shown you the keys to hell and satin masquerading as an Angel of light in the RCC, called Mary.

You are violating the forum rules, bud, posting such detractions and falsehoods. Perhaps you are ready to leave here, so it does not matter what sorts of calumnies will be attached to your username on the internet, but this is really embarrassing.

 

[bud02]

She was without original sin. We don’t believe that she sinned. It doesn’t mean she isn’t like the rest of us in that she WOULDN"T HAVE sinned if God didn’t save her. Rather, HE saved her so that she was able to TURN from sin with His grace and protection.

Says right here that she was different from us. A it also says that she was also preserved from actual sin. I take that to mean she never had to resist, as you wrongly state above Mary was very different than every other person. It dont say so she was able to turn, says she was preserved. I find it very amusing how you all represent your churches position. You wiggle and twist and turn everything.

The doctrine of Mary’s perfect holiness was the subject of the Holy Father’s catechesis at the General Audience of Wednesday, 19 June. This truth asserts “that Mary, free from original sin, was also preserved from all actual sin and that this initial holiness was granted to her in order to fill her entire life”, the Pope said. Here is a translation of his catechesis, which was the 24th in the series on the Blessed Virgin and was given in Italian.

 

[adstrinity]

She was made sinless??? says here that see never had any, not even the original sin of Eve (see below). So that means she is not from Eves seed. In light of that she was just like Jesus but better she brought him into the world. You people should understand that this is the foundation of your faith. And it clearly says in 1 John 4 that you deny Jesus came in the flesh. If Mary had no part in sin or better the original sin of her mother Eve.

ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2bvm24.htm
The doctrine of Mary’s perfect holiness was the subject of the Holy Father’s catechesis at the General Audience of Wednesday, 19 June. This truth asserts “that Mary, free from original sin, was also preserved from all actual sin and that this initial holiness was granted to her in order to fill her entire life”, the Pope said. Here is a translation of his catechesis, which was the 24th in the series on the Blessed Virgin and was given in Italian.

You have every right from God to follow your own path. I just wish you people would agree on the path the Popes have put you on, know what you believe and quit twisting the official RCC statements!!! Be well versed in your church doctrine.

That’s right, She was made sinless. As soon as God made (created Her), She WAS/IS sinless. Everything you quoted is what I said.

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
zenit.org/article-23987?l=english

In view of the Pope saying - “we will not know to whom to turn”… my question is, if the Apostles were standing next to the Pope, to whom do you think they would be advising him to “turn” too …to Mary…or Jesus?

Coder:
Hi Leeann, the Pope was quoting Bartolo to apply a spiritual concept to a current crisis.

No – the Pope was “praying”, well actually leading the prayer.

“The Pope’s leading of the Supplication of the Blessed Virgin of the Rosary, a prayer written by Blessed Bartolo Longo (1841-1926) was one of the high points of this 12th pastoral trip in Italy.

“We implore you to have pity today on the nations that have gone astray, on all Europe, on the whole world, that they might repent and return to your heart,” the text of the prayer reads.

With the words of Bartolo, the Pontiff turned to Mary, saying: “If you will not help us because we are ungrateful and unworthy children of your protection, we will not know to whom to turn.”

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
The only truth I know, is what I already possess and am quite content with, my communion in spirit with my Heavenly Father/Jesus Christ my Lord and Saviour/and the Holy Spirit.

Would you really think that I would give that up for anyone?

guanophore:
It seems to me that, if you were “content” you would not be here on CAF.

Maybe it is because of how content I am, and I’m trying to understand what would make others seek out other avenues of approaching our Lord…what would make them “turn to Mary” instead of Jesus for all their needs….and concentrate so much of their attention and devotion to her, perhaps to the point of “worshipping” her – instead of the Lord.

guanophore:
No one wants you to give up the faith you have. However, something is moving you to be here…

I believe that too guanophore!

 

[adstrinity]

With the words of Bartolo, the Pontiff turned to Mary, saying: "If you will not help us because we are ungrateful and unworthy children of your protection, we will not know to whom to turn."

Holy Mother of God, pray for us, that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.

Amen.

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
Well, if you are praying to Mary and the saints, you are “not going” with His or the Apostles “authentic gospel”.

itsjustdave:
Another statement not based upon Scripture. Simply asserting something over and over without Scriptural support doesn’t make it true.

You have a point there….that’s evident within the Catholic Church’s own development.

itjustdave:
Tell me the chapter and verse where it says we cannot request the help of angels and heavenly saints.

Tell me the chapter and verse where it says we can.

itsjustdave:
The Psalmist (Ps 103:20-21; 148:1-2), invokes the heavenly hosts in prayer.

original Leeann:
Those are hymns…,not prayers.

itsjustdave:
Astonishing. Say that to a Jew and they’d laugh at you. Hymns are prayers.

Thank you for pointing that out.

These are Hymns of “praise” – which is prayer – what I was referring too – is when you actually read those Psalms that you posted, you will see that David was “praising God” – (*interesting enough – this is listed as **Psalm 102 in the Douay Rheims ***bible online – but is listed as Psalm 103 in the King James version – and in the Catholic New Jerusalem bible online)

As you read through them, you will see that they are in no way “invoking” the heavenly hosts in prayer – if they are – then they must also be “invoking” the “sun, moon, stars, dragons, waters above the earth in prayer….and that would be simply a pagan thing to do.

They are of “praise” not of “intercession”.

Psalm 103 (102) (Douay Rheims)

20 **Bless the Lord, all ye his angels: **you that are mighty in strength, and execute his word, hearkening to the voice of his orders.
21 Bless the Lord, all ye his hosts: you ministers of his that do his will.
22 Bless the Lord, all his works: in every place of his dominion, O my soul, bless thou the Lord.

New Jerusalem online

20 Bless Yahweh, all his angels, mighty warriors who fulfil his commands, attentive to the sound of his words.
21 Bless Yahweh, all his armies, servants who fulfil his wishes.
22 Bless Yahweh, all his works, in every place where he rules. Bless Yahweh, my soul.

And in Psalm 148

Douary Rheims online:
*Laudate Dominum de caelis. All creatures are invited to praise their Creator. Alleluia. *

1 Praise ye the Lord from the heavens: praise ye him in the high places. 2 Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts. 3 Praise ye him, O sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars and light. 4 Praise him, ye heavens of heavens: and let all the waters that are above the heavens 5 Praise the name of the Lord. For he spoke, and they were made: he commanded, and they were created.
6 He hath established them for ever, and for ages of ages: he hath made a decree, and it shall not pass away. 7 Praise the Lord from the earth, ye dragons, and all ye deeps: 8 Fire, hail, snow, ice, stormy winds which fulfill his word: 9 Mountains and all hills, fruitful trees and all cedars: 10 Beasts and all cattle: serpents and feathered fowls:
11 Kings of the earth and all people: princes and all judges of the earth: 12 Young men and maidens: let the old with the younger, praise the name of the Lord: 13 For his name alone is exalted. 14 The praise of him is above heaven and earth: and he hath exalted the horn of his people. A hymn to all his saints: to the children of Israel, a people approaching to him. Alleluia.

New Jerusalem online:

1 Alleluia! Praise Yahweh from the heavens, praise him in the heights.

2 Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!
3 **Praise him, sun and moon, praise him, all shining stars, **
4 praise him, highest heavens, praise him, waters above the heavens.
5 Let them praise the name of Yahweh at whose command they were made;
6 he established them for ever and ever by an unchanging decree.
7 **Praise Yahweh from the earth, sea-monsters and all the depths, **
8 fire and hail, snow and mist, storm-winds that obey his word,
9 mountains and every hill, orchards and every cedar,
10 wild animals and all cattle, reptiles and winged birds,
11 kings of the earth and all nations, princes and all judges on earth,

itsjustdave:
In fact “to pray” means “to humbly request.” In the Protestant KJV Bible, people “pray” to other people. For some reason, now Protestants don’t understand what “to pray” means anymore. It’s a humble request. When we ask others to pray for us, we humbly request them to humbly request of God on our behalf.

Like in the Psalms you posted?

Most “Protestants” would likely know the difference between “praising” and “requesting”,
at least in regards to the reference you gave from the Psalms Chapters.

 

[Leeann]

(cont’d)

itsjustdave:

So too does the author of the the book of Daniel (Dan 3:58, 86).

Could you check those verses/chapter reference for me, I couldn’t find them.

itsjustdave:
You may not be aware of it, but your Protestant Bible is not the original Christian Bible canonized in the 4th century. For instance, your Protestant book of Daniel has been truncated from the one every Church of Christ considered inspired Scripture since the advent of Christ. In fact, every ancient Christian manuscript of Sacred Scripture in other than fragmentary condition has a longer version of the Book of Daniel than your truncated version. Origen’s Daniel was larger, Jerome’s Daniel was larger, every Church of Christ since the 1st century and before the advent of Protestantism had a more complete book of Daniel, portions of which were even discovered among the Qumran scrolls which dated back to 100 BC.

Your book of Esther, for example, doesn’t even mention God. It too was truncated from the original Christian Bible. The ancient Christian Book of Esther does mention God, by the way. See more here: How Big is Your Book of Daniel? If you want the full Bible, I recommend you read a Catholic Bible.

Thank you for that information. I checked out the Daniel verses in the Douary Rheims online version and the context is the same as the Psalms – praising, not invoking or “requesting” – unless of course – they were praying to the cattle, sun, stars, moon, hoar frost, dews?

Duoay Rheims

Daniel 3: 58/86

58** O ye angels of the Lord,** bless the Lord: praise and exalt him above all for ever. 59 O ye heavens, bless the Lord: praise and exalt him above all for ever. 60 **O all ye waters that are above the heavens, bless the Lord; praise and exalt him above all for ever. **61 O all ye powers of the Lord, bless the Lord: praise and exalt him above all for ever. 62 O ye sun and moon, bless the Lord: praise and exalt him above all for ever. 63 O ye stars of heaven, bless the Lord: praise and exalt him above all for ever. 64 O every shower and dew, bless ye the Lord: praise and exalt him above all for ever. 65 O all ye spirits of God, bless the Lord: praise and exalt him above all for ever.
66 O ye fire and heat, bless the Lord: praise and exalt him above all for ever. 67 O ye cold and heat, bless the Lord: praise and exalt him above all for ever. 68 O ye dews and hoar frosts, bless the Lord: praise and exalt him above all for ever. 69 O ye frost and cold, bless the Lord: praise and exalt him above all for ever. 70 O ye ice and snow, bless the Lord: praise and exalt
81 O all ye beasts and cattle, bless the Lord: praise and exalt him above all for ever. 82 O ye sons of men, bless the Lord, praise and exalt him above all for ever. 83 O let Israel bless the Lord: let them praise and exalt him above all for ever. 84 O ye priests of the Lord, bless the Lord: praise and exalt him above all for ever. 85 O ye servants of the Lord, bless the Lord: praise and exalt him above all for ever.
86 O ye spirits and souls of the just, bless the Lord: praise and exalt him above all for ever. 87 O ye holy and humble of heart, bless the Lord: praise and exalt him above all for ever.

These verses in no way indicate that there is any “requesting” going on…as in the description you gave for “prayer”.

 

[Leeann]

**original Leeann:**What do these things have to do with praying to/through Mary?

itsjustdave:
Every Christian is part of the same body of Christ, so asking our fellow Christians to pray for us is precisely what we do when we ask Mary or any other saint in heaven to pray for us. Paul exhorts us to pray for one another, so this is in no way contrary to the Gospel of Christ, your novel interpretation of a truncated Bible notwithstanding.

Or by your novel application of the verses from the Psalms and Daniel that you quoted?

Leeann:
No they don’t tell us where to turn too

itsjustdave:
It says, “you have come to” (past tense), speaking to the faithful on earth. How have those on earth come to heavenly Jerusalem? By prayer, in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. We have come to the city of the living God, which includes angels AND saints AND God AND Jesus. St. John spoke to angels and saints in heaven. Its biblical.

John *did *speak with them in heaven, he was transported there in the spirit for a purpose that was *instigated by God *– not him….John wasn’t making “requests”…he was being “informed”…there is a difference.

Douay Rheims

*St. John is ordered to write to the seven churches in Asia. The manner of Christ’s appearing to him. * (their heading)

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to make known to his servants the things which must shortly come to pass: and signified, sending by his angel to his servant John,

itsjustdave:
I have yet to see you provide one passage from Scripture that says we cannot ask the angels and saints for help in prayer. I’m still waiting for that passage. I’ve looked. I cannot find it.

Your assertions about it being unBiblical don’t amount to anything without a chapter and verse backing it up.

My assertions has been that it was never taught or preached by the Apostles or by Jesus.

Those things are in the Bible.

Leeann:
These verses in no way indicate that we are to pray to any of the assembly of the first-born, or to the spirits of just men made perfect or to angels obviously or to even God or to Jesus. They are establishing “where” we are now as true and faithful believers.

I disagree. They establish a communion of saints in heaven which we have “come to” (past tense). It establishes that we have come to angels AND saints AND God AND Jesus, as one communion. It shows that asking an angel of God for their prayers is just as pious a Chrisitan practice as asking any other member of the Body of Christ for their prayers.

So we disagree.

itsjustdave:
One you show the passage of Scripture that says, “Thou shalt not ask other Christians to pray for you” then you’ll have a more compelling argument.

The teaching/preaching that the Apostles did while establishing the churches never directs anyone to ask those in “heaven” to pray for you and they never direct anyone to pray to/through those in heaven. There are scriptures where they encourage the early Christians, in their eartlhy communities, to pray for one another in support.

Are the Apostles own teachings not compelling enough for you?

 

[bud02]

In repose to MerickOWA and guanophore

You argument that Mary was sinless from birth doesn’t hold water.
If God was willing to make Mary sinless from conception he could just as well done the same for anyone or everyone / outside of Jesus.The Bible says that all mankind fell into sin from Adam and Eve. It also teaches that no one receives salvation except threw Christ. There for Jesus would have never been needed to leave his Father if someone else could have taken Gods Son place. Or everyone could have received the special privilege that Mary did and never sin.

If you insist on a special privileged Mary I say you teach a different Gospel than Christ. One that looks more like Isis and Horus. No where does the Bible say that Jesus would be born from a sinless virgin. Instead it says that all have sinned. Rom 3-23 If Mary was sinless she was no daughter of Adam, and has no part in the promise to Eve. And here is my testimony.

Gen 3-15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel."

Both Adam and Eve were separated from God because of sin. All of there children were also separated. But God said he would bring enmity between Eves “separated fallen” seed and the serpents. This promise continued in Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The entire Old Testament speaks of this coming promise. Now all men and women were in a fallen state including Mary because she also was a decedent of Adam and Eve. God found favor with her but she was still a fallen human, that, God conceived his Son with, her “separated from God, sinful” egg in her womb. That is why Jesus is both God and man.

Here are some of the official statements from the RCC about Mary below. scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p6.htm#I

"Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death."508 The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son’s Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians:

In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.509

There are only 2 places in the Bible that speak about the Antichrist.
1 John 4 1-3
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

2 John 1-7
For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist

Buy giving Mary the title of Mother of God in the fullest sence of the deity, and other statements like.
1 preserved free from all stain of original sin
2 In giving birth you kept your virginity
3 You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.

You clearly do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. To the RCC Mary was more than a fallen daughter of Eve. Do you understand that buy claiming Mary something other than a fallen daughter of Eve you deny that Jesus was born of the flesh. All the veneration and praying to Mary is the fullness and completeness of the Antichrist.

Proverbs 21-22
A wise man attacks the city of the mighty and pulls down the stronghold in which they trust

Proverbs 21-30
There is no wisdom, no insight, no plan that can succeed against the Lord.

As for having the keys hell, when did the man of perdition have need of keys to enter his own house.

 

[jfallaw]

In repose to MerickOWA and guanophore

You argument that Mary was sinless from birth doesn’t hold water.
If God was willing to make Mary sinless from conception he could just as well done the same for anyone or everyone / outside of Jesus.The Bible says that all mankind fell into sin from Adam and Eve. It also teaches that no one receives salvation except threw Christ. There for Jesus would have never been needed to leave his Father if someone else could have taken Gods Son place. Or everyone could have received the special privilege that Mary did and never sin.

If you insist on a special privileged Mary I say you teach a different Gospel than Christ. One that looks more like Isis and Horus. No where does the Bible say that Jesus would be born from a sinless virgin. Instead it says that all have sinned. Rom 3-23 If Mary was sinless she was no daughter of Adam, and has no part in the promise to Eve. And here is my testimony.

Gen 3-15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel."

Both Adam and Eve were separated from God because of sin. All of there children were also separated. But God said he would bring enmity between Eves “separated fallen” seed and the serpents. This promise continued in Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The entire Old Testament speaks of this coming promise. Now all men and women were in a fallen state including Mary because she also was a decedent of Adam and Eve. God found favor with her but she was still a fallen human, that, God conceived his Son with, her “separated from God, sinful” egg in her womb. That is why Jesus is both God and man.

Here are some of the official statements from the RCC about Mary below. scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p6.htm#I

"Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death."508 The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son’s Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians:

In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.509

There are only 2 places in the Bible that speak about the Antichrist.
1 John 4 1-3
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

2 John 1-7
For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist

Buy giving Mary the title of Mother of God in the fullest sence of the deity, and other statements like.
1 preserved free from all stain of original sin
2 In giving birth you kept your virginity
3 You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.

You clearly do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. To the RCC Mary was more than a fallen daughter of Eve. Do you understand that buy claiming Mary something other than a fallen daughter of Eve you deny that Jesus was born of the flesh. All the veneration and praying to Mary is the fullness and completeness of the Antichrist.

Proverbs 21-22
A wise man attacks the city of the mighty and pulls down the stronghold in which they trust

Proverbs 21-30
There is no wisdom, no insight, no plan that can succeed against the Lord.

As for having the keys hell, when did the man of perdition have need of keys to enter his own house.

Even after that lengthy post, I fail to see your point. Catholics have always believed and taught that ‘Jesus Christ has come in the flesh’. There are 1,500 years worth of Catholic writings that you have obviously not read.

 

[AshleyBelle]

Bud, I will pray to our blessed mother that she will soften your heart and your blind hatred towards her, as the Mother of all Christians.