Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him ..Mary or Jesus?

[guanophore]

Perhaps you should take your agitation out on the RCC, for in your own words “gave me the holy scripture”

Do you have any idea where your bible came from?

and also makes statements that are contrary to what you people say in this forum.

No, there is nothing in the scripture that is contrary to the teaching of the catholic church, since they both came from the same Source.

guanophore clearly has a different view about Mary than the Pope and the official RCC position.

I don’t think so.

Is your house divided?

No, but I will confess that the Eastern conception of the status of Mary differs in some ways. The Eastern Churches are not influenced by Augustinian, Thomism and other Western Philosophies. Eastern Catholics seem much more content to leave things “mysteries” without trying to “explain” them with rational thought. While both the Eastern and Western Rites have always considered Mary “Holy”, Easterners have not tried to rationally explain how that occurred.

I dont know you, all I can do is presume you follow and support the official position of your church.

Actually, you don’t know me at all. But it gratifies me to know that you understand faithful Catholics will be obedient to the Apostolic Teaching through the Church.

That is that Mary was the sinless for runner (mother) of Christ.

What does sinless “runner” mean? She ran the race without falling?

Which means that Jesus was born from a perfect human, which means that Jesus was born from sinless man not the flesh of Eve.

Sorry, bud. Read you historical theology.

Jesus never needed to come to us if Mary was without sin.

Please explain this, because it makes no sense to me. Adam and Eve were created without sin. How does one relate to another?

Romans 3-23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

Did you ever read the passage from whence this was taken? If you do, I think it will become clear that “all” does not mean “all”.

I’ll edit this for you, The RCC says that this does not include Mary mother of Jesus.

Thanks. I don’ t know how I survived so long without such ‘editing’.

 

[bud02]

You are violating the forum rules, bud, posting such detractions and falsehoods. Perhaps you are ready to leave here, so it does not matter what sorts of calumnies will be attached to your username on the internet, but this is really embarrassing.

distractions and falsehoods??? matter of perspective I would say. Your Mary is not the same Mary that I see, in fact she is was never a part of the world if she was sinless.
Threats???
calumnies???
(the act of uttering false charges or misrepresentations maliciously calculated to harm another’s reputation) sure you didnt mean calamities?
(a disastrous event marked by great loss and lasting distress and suffering)

The threat is a nice touch.
And I like the way you destroy the original message to comment on it, very catholic

 

[bud02]

Even after that lengthy post, I fail to see your point. Catholics have always believed and taught that ‘Jesus Christ has come in the flesh’. There are 1,500 years worth of Catholic writings that you have obviously not read.

You probably never will.
Or perhaps if you consider that a sinless Mary from conception is not the flesh of man.

 

[Leeann]

Adstrinity:

I don’t think you fear Her, but I do think you are scared of Mary. Even evidenced in this post. I’m not sure why. Does She threaten you? Do you think that She will somehow come between you and Christ? Are you jealous that Jesus loves Her more? What IS your issue with Her? I am trying to help you and to get you to look inside yourself. You are not being humble and you are not being honest. We keep telling you that it’s not an either/or, but, you do not take our word for it. We keep telling you that God is all great, and you do not accept this is our belief. I think that this is a level of your pride, Leeann, God knows this post here can’t be helping you to lessen yourself, but, I think this is a level of pride for you on two levels:

1. It’s NOT just you and God when it all comes down to it

1. You MUST stick to your pride and incorrect assertions to make yourself feel better and comfortable.

You can use the Bible all you want (and that is what is happening, you are using it, not utilizing it, but, merely using it so you can get it to do what you want), but, when the passages are explained, you still cling to what YOU believe about the passages. You (and all Protestants who believe like you do), have to have such a small view of things, that while you may claim it’s just Jesus and Me and I’m in a relationship, it’s really JUST YOU, sans Jesus, because it can NEVER be just Jesus and another person. AND, if it is just you, not Jesus, then you really don’t care about ANYTHING He said, just what you say and what you believe. …And if this is the case, then you will not see that the Apostles, in your faulty scenario, wouldn’t know where to turn because if Mary says no, then Jesus will listen to Her. And if this is the case, then you will not see that the Apostles, in your faulty scenario, wouldn’t split up Jesus and Mary. And if this is the case, then you will not see that the Apostles, in your faulty scenario, cannot split up Mary’s, ‘yes,’ to God’s will. …But you can’t see any of this, because when we tell you where you err, and how, you say, ‘No, you’re wrong. ONLY JESUS ONLY JESUS ONLY JESUS.’ You say this because it’s just you.

And, ~I~ say this to get to the deeper issue, that you are jealous, or threatened, or scared of Mary.

You have been so brainwashed against Her that whenever anybody mentions Her, lights and sirens go off in you and your walls go up. You have been conditioned to accept that Mary is such a Catholic thing that She can NEVER be for the good and love of all peoples, let alone Protestants. Something (I’m not saying human, though, it could have been a pastor or a parent or friends just as much as experiences) has gotten into your psyche and prevents you from accepting the free love and graces of Mary. I bet even with that your mind is thinking, “ONLY GOD CAN GRANT GRACES!!! MARY DOES NOT NOR CAN SHE FREELY LOVE!!!” Yes She can and She does, both love and graces.

---

There is something in you that will not let you love Her. You don’t believe She is alive, you have your reasons; you believe She was a sinner, you have your reasons; you don’t think She can pray for us; you have your reasons, but, that is not really why you are here. You are so scared of your own beliefs that you have to come here on this forum and repeatedly argue the same points, even though we have shown you how Catholics view these points; despite our interpretations, for which we have sources, you tell us we are wrong. That’s just you talking, not Jesus in conjuction with you.

I would ask you to say a Hail Mary, but, you may object that this is idolotry, to which I would reply, but, you can just pray to God for forgiveness, so, no harm done. Protestants, as you know, do much worse than pray a Hail Mary, and still presume that God will forgive them if they just say a prayer.

I wish I could p(name removed by moderator)oint this better and express myself clearer, but, in the meantime, I shall study your posts and see what it is about you that makes you feel it is a good and holy thing to take up an issue with Mary as you have done.

Like I said, this is something that all of us former Protestants have been through. Jesus and Me is SUCH a perversion of a doctrine it is the devil’s porn…when abortion isn’t thrilling enough for him. By cutting yourself off from Mary, you cut yourself from Jesus. I guess the ultimate question, then, is, why do you, as shown by your actions here (as there are Protestants who believe as you do, but, are not as pridefully stuborn as you to come onto this site to repeatedly tell us we are wrong) hate Jesus? I’m guessing it’s because if you hate Mary, you hate Jesus, as love of one leads to love of the other, and with a Jesus and Me attitude, it’s really all about you, leaving no room for Jesus…or Mary.

Hope you feel better now! It’s not good to hold these things in…it can interefere with your spiritual progress.

 

[adstrinity]

Mary is sinless. Jesus inherited His humanity from Her. If She was not sinless, Jesus would have inherited sin, been born in sin, and be subject to the devil. It is for this reason that Mary was preserved from all sin.

 

[Leeann]

AshleyBelle:

Here is an honest question for you Leeann… (though I realize you’ve got a lot to answer already!

Is a husband jealous of a mother’s love for her Children, or the children’s love for their mother?

It doesn’t mean they love their father any less… but they recognize without their mother’s role, they would NOT have their father. Without their mother’s role, they would not be alive.

Would the father ever accuse his children of loving their mother too much?

Oh my AshleyBelle – you had better ask adstrinity about all that…he/she seems to know much more about jealousy and love and hate and fear than I do.

 

[AshleyBelle]

Leeann… you keep telling us “the Apostles didnt’ teach that, show me where the Apostles taught that…” And expect scripture to explicity detail every aspect of the faith.

Who taught you that all God has to reveal is only in scripture?
And if it’s true, where does scripture tell us this?

Where does scripture tell you to sing songs like “Amazing Grace?” Where does the Bible say we should Methodist churches, or Presbyterian churches, or any denominations? Where does the Bible tell us we should worship in a building at all? If we really wanted to do as the early Christians, maybe we should worship in caves every week.
Maybe we should all be praying in aramaic because that’s what Christ spoke.

But then…if we agree He spoke in aramaic, we’d have to accept “You are Peter and on this Rock I will build My church” to mean literally Peter was the rock…

Where does the Bible say that all the things we do for our faith are “traditions of men” because they are not explicitely in the Bible? Where does the Bible tell us that we should PERSONALLY interpret scripture for ourselves? Where does the Bible say the church would “go wrong?”

Where does the Bible say that Scripture, tradition, and magesterium are lies made up to “bind men up?”

But mainly…since that’s a whole lot of questions…

Where does the Bible say that the Bible is the only rule of faith?

 

[Leeann]

guanophore:
I have a question for you, Leeann. It seems clear that you have no use for so much Catholic teaching. Why are you here?

Well…as you know guanophore from prior postings in other threads, you’ve asked me this before and I answered about my concern with regards to some Catholic friends who have taken the Marian devotions to a whole new level – not similar to what some in here or even perhaps yourself adhere too – as described in your postings. I’m finding it interesting and especially in this thread as to what may lie behind the desire or need to have to go to/through Mary in order to approach Jesus…and the different understanding of what the Church actually teaches.

guanophore:
You have been clear that you do not accept the Catholic Church for what she claims to be. Why do you not commend us all to God and go your way in peace? What is it in you that compels you to criticize our spiritual practices?

Nothing is compelling me to criticize your spiritual practices, but if questions are posted to me, I should reply shouldn’t I?
If I don’t – I will be accused of not responding because I don’t know what to say – if I do – I will be asked “what compels me to criticize your spiritual practices”. To be perfectly honest…I’d just like to stop now and see what OTHER posters actually post, with regards to the “thread question”. Other opinions and insights.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
She was human and it’s afforded to each of us to die once.

guanophore:
Then how come Enoch and Elijah did not?

I was referring to your own stories about how her body – dead - was placed in a tomb…and then later….when they went back…they couldn’t find it….and it was announced that Mary was assumed into heaven.

Or is this something that’s not true – she never died at all – just was assumed alive into heaven?

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
Proof of how early error had crept in to the early church, as the Apostles and Jesus warned was happening and would happen.

guanophore:
If you believe this, then how can you accept without question other Doctrines coming from the same place, like the hypostatic union, observance of the Sabbath on Sunday, the Trinity, and the canon of the NT? If error crept in,on what basis can any of these be valid?

The “Trinity” and “hypostatic union” – are outlined in the scriptures as you know – and as for the canon of the NT – God works through wonderful, faithful people, in all churches/denominations – and I’m grateful for that! As for the Sabbath on Sunday – every day is God’s Day…doesn’t matter to me.

Originally Posted by Leeann
Jesus and His Apostles never quoted from Maccabees.

guanophore:
Besides, Jesus did use Maccabees, as did Paul. Your inability to see this in no way detracts from their use of the Septuagint as the authoritative canon of scripture.

Oh! I’m sorry……please show me where Jesus and Paul referred to Maccabees?

Originally Posted by Leeann
Yes….and what has He told us to do?
To go to Him…and yet the Catholic Church doesn’t present this, instead they encourage their member to go to ……Mary.
Why is that?

guanophore:
For us, it is not “instead”. We believe they are together. Why does it bother you so much? I thought you were content with your “Jesus only” faith?

I’ve already stated why it bothers me – people get misled and their faith is no longer based in Christ.__________________

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
What has your comment got to do in relation to the excerpt of my quote you posted???

guanophore:
I am pointing out that you are making erroneous conclusions based upon an erroneous assumption. You keep asserting "they never taught that’ based on the assumption that everything they taught is in the NT.

That’s *your *assumption, *about me basing *what I’ve been saying, on “everything they taught is in the NT.” I’ve never said that.
I’ve stated that the “gospel message” that Jesus and the Apostles preached and taught was complete and as effective at the time it was preached back then, as it was recorded in the Gospel books and epistles later and as it is preached today.
That gospel message being for the salvation of all mankind – by belief and faith in the blood of Jesus Christ…and not altered or affected in any way by things later added to it to ensure ‘mankinds’ salvation - such as belonging to the Catholic Church or having to adhere to its “erroneously developed” doctrines.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
I don’t believe they actually use the same scripture. It is different.

guanophore:
Do you disagree that faithful followers of Christ can reach opposing beliefs reading the same NT?

I guess it depends on how they go about reading it.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
It’s already been done, over and over, by millions of individual believers and by other pastors and ministers and leaders of other churches the world over…with the exception that they never asked in a quandary….” to whom will we turn too…” – as they were already at the proper source.

guanophore:
I am very puzzled by this, Leeann. It is ok for others to intercede on behalf of the world, but not the Pope?

Yes…but you see…the Pope really believes that He is the only one on earth, with the *authority *to be able to do this…and who is he’s dedicating it too…. Mary.

guanophore:
Let’s say, for the sake of discussion, the Pope was off his nut, and did not know what he was saying and was babbling nonsense. Why would that bother you?

You mean babbling nonsense like you are right now.

 

[bud02]

Mary is sinless. Jesus inherited His humanity from Her. If She was not sinless, Jesus would have inherited sin, been born in sin, and be subject to the devil. It is for this reason that Mary was preserved from all sin.

Have you not heard that Jesus was tempted in the wilderness.
That he over came sin? By not submitting to the temptation.
Jesus is God in human flesh. He is not half God and half man. He is fully divine and fully man. That is, Jesus has two distinct natures: divine and human. Jesus is the Word who was God and was with God and was made flesh, (John 1:1,14). This means that in the single person of Jesus is both a human and divine nature. Jesus’ two natures are not “mixed together,” nor are they combined into a new God-man nature. They are separate yet act as a unit in the one person of Jesus. This is called the Hypostatic Union.

The man part “flesh” is what he got from Mary. If Mary was a special sinless human then he would never have inherited the man part, that fell into sin. Like God told Abraham I shall provide myself a sacrifice.

Three temptations, each representing the manner in which all men are tempted (1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world–the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life–is not of the Father but is of the world.)

 

[guanophore]

 His Church is built on HIM – and is living and visible and growing in all true and faithful believers where ever they may be.

It is very Catholic of you to say that!

Because the there is no resemblance in the Catholic Church as we know it today, or as it developed over the centuries as being the same church – His Church – that the Apostles established.

Such a statement, which you have made many times, remains a puzzle to me. I think it must emanate from the separation of the Sacred Writings from the Sacred Traditions from whence they were produced.

Or - to take a famous response from guanophore: We read it differently!

I think that your limitation to the revelation of God in the Holy Writings is what makes you blind to the rest.

I’m responding to questions or statements posted back to me

Well, it sounds like a righteous justification for your refusal to accept what is being offered.
Leeann;4366246:

If there are side issues raised and questions or statements posted…should I ignore and not answer them?

No. You can post your anti-Catholic viewpoint here.

Note: I don’t ever remember actually posting - “I don’t need to, because I’m RIGHT!”

I am sure it does not seem that way to you.

I’ve attempted to answer and respond to every post directed to me – if you don’t like the answers – I’m sorry

I am sure it seems that way to you.

 I’ve never stated that – again, I’ve explained why when asked – you just didn’t like my explanation.

Yes, you have stated that - many times.

What part of my “question” that was posted for this thread, indicates to you that I’m here to convince you of anything?

The part that repeatedly says you are perfectly content and happy in your faith, yet you keep posting detractions against the Church founded by Christ.

If you are truly content, as you have said, then what need do you have to be here? This is a forum designed to provide Catholic answers to sincere inquirers about our faith. Yet, you have repeatedly stated that you have no desire to learn our faith, and are happy with your own. It leaves the reader with the question: “Why is she here”?

Or – perhaps I am using my faith in exactly the way God wants me too.

No, I think not. Jesus was clear that He wanted the wheat and tares to grow together. He did not authorize disciples to go pull up that which they considered tares.

When I say I’m content, you some how translate that into “sitting still”.

No, I do not. What is puzzling me is, what is it about attacking the Catholic faith that makes you feel like you are growing spiritually?
Leeann;4366264:

He’s already humbled Himself for me, out of His great love and we’ve “embraced” each other and continue to “be” together…through thick and thin! :)

Then how do you justify exalting yourself over others? How is it, in the light of the One who gave up everything for you, that you can justify finding fault with others?

Maybe it is because

of how content I am, and I’m trying to understand what would make others seek out other avenues of approaching our Lord…

No. I think not. The one who is content feels not need to tear at others. Perhaps you are puzzled about others, but you are not seeking, you are detracting. You are not here to understand an accept, but to find fault. This is not the action of a “contented” person. One who is content can go their way in peace, without attempting to uproot others.

 …what would make them “turn to Mary” instead of Jesus for all their needs….and concentrate so much of their attention and devotion to her, perhaps to the point of “worshipping” her – instead of the Lord.

This illustrates that you are vexed by what you perceive as idolatry. Why would such a thing perturb you? Why would you be so troubled by the idolatry of others? How does this affect your salvation?

If you think something is leading you to be here, what is that? What do you suppose would motivate you to rip and tear at the Body of Christ?

No – the Pope was “praying”, well actually leading the prayer.

What is it, in you, that leads you to feel compelled to criticize the prayer life of others?

 

[guanophore]

No – the Pope was “praying”, well actually leading the prayer.

“We implore you to have pity today on the nations that have gone astray, on all Europe, on the whole world, that they might repent and return to your heart,” the text of the prayer reads.

With the words of Bartolo, the Pontiff turned to Mary, saying: “If you will not help us because we are ungrateful and unworthy children of your protection, we will not know to whom to turn.”

The Pope’s leading of the Supplication of the Blessed Virgin of the Rosary,

a prayer written by Blessed Bartolo Longo (1841-1926) was one of the high points of this 12th pastoral trip in Italy.

“We implore you to have pity today on the nations that have gone astray, on all Europe, on the whole world, that they might repent and return to your heart,” the text of the prayer reads.

With the words of Bartolo, the Pontiff turned to Mary, saying: “If you will not help us because we are ungrateful and unworthy children of your protection, we will not know to whom to turn.”

There is something within Leeann, that provokes her about this prayer. Leeann is not able to tolerate the personal prayer life of another Christian who does not pray as she does. She is so disturbed by this prayer, that even in her “contented” state of religious belief, she has found it necessary to frequent a Catholic forum (apparently daily) in order to complain about the prayer of another person.

Leeann has even stood shoulder to shoulder with “the accuser of the brethren” in order to bring her complaints.

You have a point there….that’s evident within the Catholic Church’s own development.

I understand that you are not able to see the great tree that has grown from the mustard seed that was planted by Jesus.

Tell me the chapter and verse where it says we can.

It is right next to the chapter and verses that state which books belong in the NT.

These are Hymns of “praise” – which is prayer – what I was referring too – is when you actually read those Psalms that you posted, you will see that David was “praising God” – (*interesting enough – this is listed as **Psalm 102 in the Douay Rheims ***bible online – but is listed as Psalm 103 in the King James version – and in the Catholic New Jerusalem bible online)

It is true that praise is one form of prayer. However, when the Apostles tell us that we are to think on those things that are worthy of praise, he is no limiting this to deity. Supplication is another form of praise. If you are willing to have some intellctual honesty, you will admit that supplication is not limited to prayer.

As you read through them, you will see that they are in no way “invoking” the heavenly hosts in prayer – if they are – then they must also be “invoking” the “sun, moon, stars, dragons, waters above the earth in prayer….and that would be simply a pagan thing to do.

Again your limited understanding of God’s revelation reveals your ignorance of it. On the contrary, the psalmist specificallly commands all these created aspects to praise God. Further, Jesus Himself says that the rocks would break forth in praise if the people were silenced. Are you saying that Jesus is now a Pagan?

They are of “praise” not of “intercession”.

I will agree with you that praise and adoration are not the same as intercession.

Psalm 103 (102) (Douay Rheims)

20 **Bless the Lord, all ye his angels: **you that are mighty in strength, and execute his word, hearkening to the voice of his orders.
21 Bless the Lord, all ye his hosts: you ministers of his that do his will.
22 Bless the Lord, all his works: in every place of his dominion, O my soul, bless thou the Lord.

New Jerusalem online

20 Bless Yahweh, all his angels, mighty warriors who fulfil his commands, attentive to the sound of his words.
21 Bless Yahweh, all his armies, servants who fulfil his wishes.
22 Bless Yahweh, all his works, in every place where he rules. Bless Yahweh, my soul.

And in Psalm 148

How you can read these, and not perceive that all the creation should praise Him, I cannot fathom.

Most “Protestants” would likely know the difference between “praising” and “requesting”,

If that were true, we would not have so many threads on here about how it is not appropriate to request the intercession of others.

 

[bud02]

Where does the Bible say that the Bible is the only rule of faith?

2 Tim 3-16
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Thats why you need to test what is tough. Without the Bible how would you Know God? Traditions are just like roads that can lead you anywhere. What was said about the word?

Matt 24:35
Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

That Jesus statement leaves the order Bible first tradition second.

 

[AshleyBelle]

2 Tim 3-16
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Thats why you need to test what is tough. Without the Bible how would you Know God? Traditions are just like roads that can lead you anywhere. What was said about the word?

Matt 24:35
Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

That Jesus statement leaves the order Bible first tradition second.

Then obviously, you must reject your new testament writings. Because it says that “these are the scriptures that Timothy knew from his childhood.” Considering that the only scripture he had in his childhood, was the old testament, I’m pretty sure He couldn’t have been referring to the NT.

And I completely agree with 2nd Tim. that says All scripture is God breathed and useful for teaching, and you’re right…it does make the man of God thoroughly equiped! Unfortunately, when you forget to hold scripture in the light of sacred tradition and magesterium, you end up reading the Bible in the dark!

It doesn’t say “NOTHING ELSE is useful for teaching.” This statement does not prove that ONLY Scripture is uesful.

Also…considering when it was written, if you try to twist it to say “ONLY scripture,” you’d have to be saying ONLY the old testament. Which would then reject the very book your’e trying to quote from

So…2nd timothy doesn’t work. Where in the Bible does the Bible say it’s the ONLY rule of faith?

And a last note, when Jesus said “Heaven and Earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away” You do realize he was SPEAKING right? He wasn’t reading from a pre-prepared written out speech on a piece of parchment. He was speaking, and the apostles SPOKE and taught what they heard Him say, and their successors spoke and taught what those apostles taught and said, and so on, until the council came together and determined the cannon of new testament scripture for us… So that Bud could come on CAF one day and tell us ignorant catholics about that there “Jesus Speech”.

 

[Leeann]

guanophore:
It is very Catholic of you to say that!

Such a statement, which you have made many times, remains a puzzle to me. I think it must emanate from the separation of the Sacred Writings from the Sacred Traditions from whence they were produced.

I think that your limitation to the revelation of God in the Holy Writings is what makes you blind to the rest.

Well, it sounds like a righteous justification for your refusal to accept what is being offered.

No. You can post your anti-Catholic viewpoint here.

I am sure it does not seem that way to you.

I am sure it seems that way to you.

Yes, you have stated that - many times.

The part that repeatedly says you are perfectly content and happy in your faith, yet you keep posting detractions against the Church founded by Christ.

If you are truly content, as you have said, then what need do you have to be here? This is a forum designed to provide Catholic answers to sincere inquirers about our faith. Yet, you have repeatedly stated that you have no desire to learn our faith, and are happy with your own. It leaves the reader with the question: “Why is she here”?

No, I think not. Jesus was clear that He wanted the wheat and tares to grow together. He did not authorize disciples to go pull up that which they considered tares.

No, I do not. What is puzzling me is, what is it about attacking the Catholic faith that makes you feel like you are growing spiritually?

Then how do you justify exalting yourself over others? How is it, in the light of the One who gave up everything for you, that you can justify finding fault with others?

No. I think not. The one who is content feels not need to tear at others. Perhaps you are puzzled about others, but you are not seeking, you are detracting. You are not here to understand an accept, but to find fault. This is not the action of a “contented” person. One who is content can go their way in peace, without attempting to uproot others.

This illustrates that you are vexed by what you perceive as idolatry. Why would such a thing perturb you? Why would you be so troubled by the idolatry of others? How does this affect your salvation?

If you think something is leading you to be here, what is that? What do you suppose would motivate you to rip and tear at the Body of Christ?

What is it, in you, that leads you to feel compelled to criticize the prayer life of others?



You are a joy to behold!!!
God Bless ya!

 

[Leeann]

I’m going to try and get this back on topic - for any NEW posters that might like to add their (name removed by moderator)ut.

I’m just posting the question!

(And going to sit back and read the responses from everyone).

In view of the following prayer made by the Pope - the question is: if the Apostles were standing there beside him, to whom would they point him too - when he prayed " we will not know to whom to turn"…Mary…or Jesus?

POMPEII, Italy, OCT. 19, 2008 (Zenit.org).- Benedict XVI placed the world in Mary’s hands during his one-day visit to the shrine of Our Lady of the Rosary in Pompeii, near Naples.

The Pope’s leading of the Supplication of the Blessed Virgin of the Rosary, a prayer written by Blessed Bartolo Longo (1841-1926) was one of the high points of this 12th pastoral trip in Italy.

“We implore you to have pity today on the nations that have gone astray, on all Europe, on the whole world, that they might repent and return to your heart,” the text of the prayer reads.

With the words of Bartolo, the Pontiff turned to Mary, saying: **“If you will not help us because we are ungrateful and unworthy children of your protection, we will not know to whom to turn.”

**

 

[adstrinity]

bud, Jesvs never sinned before, during, or after being tempted by the devil. It was being Mary’s fully sinless flesh that afforded Him this option. See you guys, do you see how Leeann is proud and full of herself and doesn’t really care about Jesus’ real teachings?

 

[AshleyBelle]

bud, Jesvs never sinned before, during, or after being tempted by the devil. It was being Mary’s fully sinless flesh that afforded Him this option. See you guys, do you see how Leeann is proud and full of herself and doesn’t really care about Jesus’ real teachings?

I don’t think Leeann is “full of herself” at all, and I don’t necesarily think she’s posting out of pride. I think she really does believe we are misguided, and need to know and love Christ the way she does.

Really, that’s what we want too, isn’t it? To help Leeann and others understand, know, and partake of Christ the way we do, in communion with His church?

Her intentions are “good,” but she is rejecting any idea or explanation of OUR intentions being good as well.

We love Mary, she is Christ’s mother and the mother of all Christians. I don’t know why this practice bothers her, or makes her feel like we are less in love with Christ. But Lord willling, if God ever does lead Leeann home to His church, I believe out of her great and apparent hatred for our devotion to the blessed mother, a great LOVE could grow Sometimes God uses our doubts to help us look more deeply into spiritual truths. The deeper our doubts, the more deeply we search, and the more understanding we discover!

 

[Good_Fella]

Paul is praying to God. What is your point.

God was a friend to Abraham. He came down to Abraham before he destroyed Sodom. He is asking God directly.

The Lord spoke directly to Moses and Moses to God. Moses is living.

This one is the worst thing to use. For King Solomon heard the request and then he went on to kill Adonijah.

21 So she said, “Let Abishag the Shunammite be given in marriage to your brother Adonijah.”

22 King Solomon answered his mother, “Why do you request Abishag the Shunammite for Adonijah? You might as well request the kingdom for him—after all, he is my older brother—yes, for him and for Abiathar the priest and Joab son of Zeruiah!”

23 Then King Solomon swore by the LORD : “May God deal with me, be it ever so severely, if Adonijah does not pay with his life for this request! 24 And now, as surely as the LORD lives—he who has established me securely on the throne of my father David and has founded a dynasty for me as he promised—Adonijah shall be put to death today!” 25 So King Solomon gave orders to Benaiah son of Jehoiada, and he struck down Adonijah and he died.

Solomon did refuse her.

Mary is alive here. This has nothing to do with intercessionary prayer.

Luke 11

27As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.”

28He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”

My point is that we are not merely spectators in our salvation. We have a part to play in the economy of salvation by praying to God for the salvation of others notwithstanding our own personal interest in our individual stand before God. Mary prays to God on our behalf as Mother of the Church, as Paul prayed for others to God as an apostle of Christ and his Church.

Mary is a daughter, not bondslave, of the eternal Father. She is in heaven body and soul where she directly intercedes for us before God in close association with her Son. The angel Gabriel condescended to Mary and showed her reverence when he greeted her as “full of grace” and without sin. Thus Mary was exempt from incurring the penalty of the universal law of sin and death. Her body does not lie corrupted somewhere in an unmarked grave. Jesus honours his mother as we all should do with respect to our own mothers.

Bethsheba suspected Adonijah’s hidden evil intentions, but she honoured his request just the same knowing full well that Solomon would not be fooled. The Queen Mother placed the matter in the hands of her son. Under normal circumstances the king never refused his mother’s petitions. Solomon tells her: “I will not refuse you.” In the ancient Davidic kingdom the Gebirah acted as advocate to the people. The royal subjects normally approached the king through his mother with their important petitions. For they knew that they had a far better chance of succeeding by appealing to her first. They begged defeat by denying the king’s mother her royal privilege and so incurring the king’s offense. The Queen Mother prefigures Mary in her unique role as Mother of the Church. The apostles were devout Jews conversant with Judaic tradition and sensible of the link between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. Their Judaic sensibilities are clearly expressed in the gospels. You fail to see this because you do not read the scriptures in an analogical sense.

The Church’s awareness of Mary’s powerful intercessory role is expressed in the narrative of the wedding feast at Cana. It was through Mary’s solicitation that Jesus performed his first miracle and began his ministry under the shadow of the cross.

In Luke 11:28, Jesus is alluding to his mother to whom attention was drawn by the woman in the crowd. He echos the declaration of Elizabeth in chapter 1: “Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled.” The Church in Palestine spontaneously perceived Mary as a woman of perfect faith and obedience to God. Hence, in light of her holiness, and in virtue of her Divine Maternity, Mary’s intercessory prayers are the most influential among all righteous human creatures. The Christians in Palestine were aware of this truth. Elizabeth asks with profound respect towards Mary, “For who am I, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For as soon as ‘the sound of your greeting’ reached my ears, the child in my womb leaped for joy.” It was the sound of Mary’s voice that caused the child to leap in Elizabeth’s womb, just as the sight of the ark compelled David to leap with joy. Mary and Jesus are intimately associated with each other through the Holy Spirit. Our Blessed Mother helps us to reach her Divine Son by the pleasing sound of her prayers to God, who desires that everyone be saved. The Holy Spirit pours out many helping graces to us through our maternal advocate.

PAX :tiphat:

 

[bud02]

You are a joy to behold!!!
God Bless ya!

guanophore needs a proverb to go with his 9952 post

When words are many sin is not absent.