Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him ..Mary or Jesus?

[AshleyBelle]

guanophore needs a proverb to go with his 9952 post

When words are many sin is not absent.

So… when you can’t understand what he is saying, you just claim something MUST be wrong with it…so you come up with “well he just says too much… ?”

Guanophor’s post seems to show that he has a deep understanding of his faith and is willing to take the time to explain it to people such as yourself who want to attack it and call his mother the antichrist.

You should feel blessed that all he threw back at you were words, because most people in real life, when told such lies about THEIR mother’s would hurl a lot more than essays at you.

 

[jam070406]

I could ask any Catholic on here whom they worship and none will say Mary, rather Jesus. I don’t see the point of this thread. If Leeann is trying to make a case for idolatry she couldn’t be more wrong. Mary helps lead us to Jesus, why does Leeann have such a problem with this?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Picture yourself living in Nazareth around AD 30 --let’s say it’s during one of the three years of Jesus’ ministry.

Now, let’s imagine that you have not been listening to Jesus. Worse, you’ve been actively plotting with the Pharisess to bring Him down. Everybody in town knows it. Everybody around Jesus knows it. Jesus, of course, knows it.

Then, in the midst of all this, suddenly your heart is moved. You start to rethink things. You realize you were wrong… .you’ve been dreadfully wrong about Jesus. You are miserable. You want to beg His forgiveness, but He has gone off to pray. His disciples won’t even speak to you.

What do you do? You go to the only person in town who wouldn’t reject you–His Mother. You pour out your sorrow and repentence and you beg His Mother to intercede to Jesus for you. . .because, if she won’t help you, you have nobody else to turn to.

 

[bud02]

And I completely agree with 2nd Tim. that says All scripture is God breathed and useful for teaching, and you’re right…it does make the man of God thoroughly equiped! Unfortunately, when you forget to hold scripture in the light of sacred tradition and magesterium, you end up reading the Bible in the dark!

How do you read the Bible in the dark. Dont get me wrong here I have questions about other churches teachings also, one of them is I dont believe the 7 year tribulation interpretation. Jesus wants a personal relationship with you, he wants to reveal himself to you. He uses his word to do that.

Lets say you had a dangerous piece of equipment that could cost you your life if you misused it. It has complete and unerring instructions. In stead of reading and carefully understanding for your own safety, you choose to listen to someone that has not proved and tested his machine ether. All of us have unproven machines until we stand before Christ. Are you going to chance standing before God and say, I didnt read the instructions I chose to listened to the church and its traditions?

You like many others are much more comfortable believing what people say rather than looking for yourself. Take a look at what non Jesus believers say about the bible, now compare that with what you are saying, I see no difference. I would say that all people that dont believe in Jesus, also dont believe the bible. You and non believers have a lot in common. Your faith must have started with tradition and has continued.

The Bible and nothing but the Bible.
In the old testament when was God displeased with Israel?
It was when they chose to disregard his word and listen to the neighbors. Listening to tradition that has no biblical reference is shaky ground. And rejecting Gods word is even more dangerous.

 

[bud02]

You should feel blessed that all he threw back at you were words, because most people in real life, when told such lies about THEIR mother’s would hurl a lot more than essays at you.

The RCC has a very colorful history of dealing with people that disagree with her. But she has been busy the last 210 years covering it up. Yes I feel blessed that you cant slap me around:thumbsup:

 

[AshleyBelle]

How do you read the Bible in the dark. Dont get me wrong here I have questions about other churches teachings also, one of them is I dont believe the 7 year tribulation interpretation. Jesus wants a personal relationship with you, he wants to reveal himself to you. He uses his word to do that.

Lets say you had a dangerous piece of equipment that could cost you your life if you misused it. It has complete and unerring instructions. In stead of reading and carefully understanding for your own safety, you choose to listen to someone that has not proved and tested his machine ether. All of us have unproven machines until we stand before Christ. Are you going to chance standing before God and say, I didnt read the instructions I chose to listened to the church and its traditions?

You like many others are much more comfortable believing what people say rather than looking for yourself. Take a look at what non Jesus believers say about the bible, now compare that with what you are saying, I see no difference. I would say that all people that dont believe in Jesus, also dont believe the bible. You and non believers have a lot in common. Your faith must have started with tradition and has continued.

The Bible and nothing but the Bible.
In the old testament when was God displeased with Israel?
It was when they chose to disregard his word and listen to the neighbors. Listening to tradition that has no biblical reference is shaky ground. And rejecting Gods word is even more dangerous.

Thanks for avoiding my entire post, by focussing only on the first sentence, and not even responding to the fact that you quoted a verse that did NOT say what you were telling me it said.

Second, how would you feel if someone gave you not ONLY the manual for how to use the machine, but also the ENGINEER who was there when the machine was created, offering to help you. But rather than listen to the engineer, you just take his manual, full of technical terms and “wing it” trying to understand them yourself. Why not? You can read, can’t you? Oh yeah…forget the fact that if you want to apply this analogy to the early church, that MOST PEOPLE did NOT know how to read.

If only people who can read the Bible are saved, what happens to all the people throughout the centuries couldn’t even read it if they had a copy?

You said “The Bible. And Only the Bible.”

Shouldn’t it be “Jesus. And Only Jesus.” Which is what Catholics believe precisely. Except we don’t confine Jesus to the WRITTEN word. We believe He exists in the LIVING Word. HIS CHURCH, the apostles He left us, and their teaching authority. (FROM Jesus.)

And you still haven’t shown me where the Bible tells us ONLY the Bible may be used to reveal and understand matters of faith:shrug:
Lastly, if as you say, Catholics don't read the Bible, why is it we have been able to provide passage after passage for you to defend our faith? If we didn't care about the Bible, why would we bother?

 

[runandsew]

How do you read the Bible in the dark. Dont get me wrong here I have questions about other churches teachings also, one of them is I dont believe the 7 year tribulation interpretation. Jesus wants a personal relationship with you, he wants to reveal himself to you. He uses his word to do that.

Lets say you had a dangerous piece of equipment that could cost you your life if you misused it. It has complete and unerring instructions. In stead of reading and carefully understanding for your own safety, you choose to listen to someone that has not proved and tested his machine ether. All of us have unproven machines until we stand before Christ. Are you going to chance standing before God and say, I didnt read the instructions I chose to listened to the church and its traditions?

You like many others are much more comfortable believing what people say rather than looking for yourself. Take a look at what non Jesus believers say about the bible, now compare that with what you are saying, I see no difference. I would say that all people that dont believe in Jesus, also dont believe the bible. You and non believers have a lot in common. Your faith must have started with tradition and has continued.

The Bible and nothing but the Bible.
In the old testament when was God displeased with Israel?
It was when they chose to disregard his word and listen to the neighbors. Listening to tradition that has no biblical reference is shaky ground. And rejecting Gods word is even more dangerous.

Are you fully trained as a bible scholar and theologian to understand what the writers of the bible were intending?
Or do you just wing it?
I myself have takes only a few scripture and theology classes through the archdiocese, plus listening to several CD’s by Scott Hahn on his bible study classes he teaches in college. I have read the bible maybe 30 - 50 times, well, I should put it, read it maybe 5 times, and listened to it when I drive my truck on my route the rest of the times. For example, I drive around 8 hours a night, and will listen to the book of Romans about 3-4 times a night, trying to hear the whole book in context. I will do this day after day, until I feel like I could almost repeat it from memory, then I will go back to my Navarre bible commentary and re read it especially looking up passages where I had questions in my listening that week. I then spend my two hours at adoration each week praying and reading to gain the knowledge God wants to impart on me.
Just because I agree with the Catholic church doesn’t mean I don’t understand the bible, or accept the church magisterium automatically, though I will submit to the church when it’s teaching is different than mine. I suppose the appostles also submitted to Jesus when their understanding of scripture differed than theirs.

 

[Coder]

Or perhaps it’s the other way around?
…

My faith is that the Church carries on the mission of the apostles and is guided by the Holy Spirit. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is a serious wrong. Consider this and to what extent you may be engaging in such speech. (I didn’t quote the entire response, others can read the previous response which quoted my previous post.)

Perhaps you accept that the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit but you think that the devil could mislead us as weak humans in some areas. However, the doctrines of the apostolic Church about Mary are guided by the Holy Spirit. Consider what you are saying.

 

[runandsew]

The RCC has a very colorful history of dealing with people that disagree with her. But she has been busy the last 210 years covering it up. Yes I feel blessed that you cant slap me around:thumbsup:

You know, so do most of the early protestant churches that broke away during the reformation. Why do you think the pilgrims came to America, it wasn’t because of the persecution of the Catholic church, it was because of the church of England. And most of the other Christians who fled to America were persecuted by other protestant churches, not the Catholic church.
And really, the church doesn’t try to cover it up, it admits it’s errors, but it does counter the exaggerated claims that come from anti - Catholics like there were almost 100 million people killed during the inquisition.

 

[bud02]

Are you fully trained as a bible scholar and theologian to understand what the writers of the bible were intending?
Or do you just wing it?

Perhaps you should consider Matthew, Mark, Luke and John and their training. They never went to the scribes and Pharisees for a letter of authority. They and all the prophets had the anointing of the Holy Spirit.

I have been listening and reading many years, The sheep know the Shepherds voice. The Spirit shall lead you in to all understanding.

1 Corinthians
11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?” F7 But we have the mind of Christ.

Mark 13
11 But when they arrest you and deliver you up, do not worry beforehand, or premeditate what you will speak. But whatever is given you in that hour, speak that; for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit. 12 Now brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. 13 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

 

[Good_Fella]

So live righteously.

And, there is nothing here about the content of the prayers. Their prayers were to the Lord.

This has to do with the love of money.

No where does it say Mary sits at Jesus’ right hand. Human mediators were needed in the old testament, because man could not approach God.

Hebrews 4

4 Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Acts 4:12
Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

You advise me to live righteously, but in the same breath you say that nobody is good except God. I think it’s clear you are confused about our Lord’s words with respect to himself. Jesus does exhort us to “be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect.” True righteousness amounts to “hearing the word of God and observing it.” Mary is an exemplar of true Christian faith modelling the virtues of Jesus. God hears the prayers of the righteous, says James. Paul exhorts us to pray and make sacrifices for one another, so it’s only natural that we ask righteous people to pray for us. We don’t deify Mary and the Saints by petitioning them for their prayers to God for us, which you seem to imply in your distorted scriptural citations.

The prayers of Mary and the Saints in heaven are to the Lord. Catholics don’t deny this. Who else can they be praying to on our behalf? To themselves?

Substituting God for money or any material or passionate object amounts to idolatry. Appealing to Mary’s solicitation is not a form of idolatry. Our Blessed Mother helps lead us to God. She does not lead us away from him. She tells us: “Do whatever he tells you.” Mary desires that we put God’s will first and foremost in our lives. :yup:

Then Bethsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, and the king stood up to meet her and paid her homage. Then he sat down upon his throne, and a throne was provided for the king’s mother, who sat at his right.
1 Kings 2, 19

“Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name him Jesus. He will be great and will be called Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give him the throne of David his father, and he will rule over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.”
Luke 1, 31-33

They were overjoyed at seeing the star, and on entering the house they saw the child with Mary his mother. They prostrated themselves and did him homage.
Matthew 2, 10-11

You say that human mediators were needed in the Old Testament because man could not approach God. If man could not approach God, then human mediators would not be welcome. The Word should not become flesh, made of woman, and made under the law. Please consider the full implications of what you’re thinking before you speak. I wonder whether you actually believe Jesus was both fully divine and fully man. It’s essential in God’s plan of salvation that our Lords two natures remain totally distinct from each other, that Jesus’ humanity not be underestimated. God could have saved us without becoming fully man, but he willed otherwise. As long as you maintain a pantheistic denial of human mediation in the economy of salvation, you will fail to see the full significance of the Incarnation and Mary’s intercessory role in association with her Son.

Catholics do not claim that God has appointed Mary heir to all things. But we are aware that “all generations ‘shall’ call [her] blessed. The Almighty has done great things for [her].” See the Magnificat in the Gospel of Luke.

Catholics do not believe that salvation is found in anyone else other than Christ. But we believe that the prayers of Mary and the Saints are efficacious by the merit of Christ’s Precious Blood. If Christ hadn’t redeemed us, then their prayers would be futile. Don’t you ever pray for another person’s soul but your own, now that Jesus has opened the gates of Heaven and offers salvation to everyone. Or are you just a passive spectator?

Come to him a living stone, rejected by human beings but chosen and precious in the sight of God, and like living stones, let yourselves be built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood to offer spiritual sacrifices to God through Jesus Christ.
*1 Peter 2, 4-5
*
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the Church.
Colossians 1, 24

In the words of St. Paul: “We are co-workers with God.”

 

[bud02]

Its late good night all
I leave saying that after you have walked in the Spirit you are forever changed. If you have never tasted the living water you will thirst again and again, not yet entering into the rest of the Lord. To those that have received it, shall also eat from the tree of life. It is our seal, the mark, the fulfillment of the promise, the assurance of things yet to come.
Good Nite

 

[gookykookypig]

With all our disagreement, I believe that God doesn’t want us to be so, that’s why he made a Church for unity, and authority to heed unto (magisterium), writings that supports (scripture), and experiences that give lessons (traditions).

 

[Leeann]

Its late good night all
I leave saying that after you have walked in the Spirit you are forever changed. If you have never tasted the living water you will thirst again and again, not yet entering into the rest of the Lord. To those that have received it, shall also eat from the tree of life. It is our seal, the mark, the fulfillment of the promise, the assurance of things yet to come.
Good Nite

Sleep well bud02 and God Bless!

Hebrews Ch 1

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

 

[guanophore]

2 Tim 3-16
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Sorry, bud, but this will not do it. What is good for equipping the saints is teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness. These are all things that people do, text does not. Scripture, as it says is “useful” in these activities, which are designed to perfect us in our faith. However, it is the Church that provides these things, with the aid of scripture. This is how Jesus set it up. There is nothing in this passage that even remotely indicates that Scripture is the only useful thing.

Thats why you need to test what is tough. Without the Bible how would you Know God?

Of course, one should test everything. We would know God without the Bible the same way people have been knowing him without it for millenia, through the Divine Revelation given to His chosen people. Jesus revealed Himself to the Apostoles, disciples,and prophets. They have kept and cherished His reveleation of Himself from the first day until this, before a word of the New Testament was ever written.

Traditions are just like roads that can lead you anywhere.

Perhaps you are not distinquishing between traditions (customs) and Sacred Tradtiion? Jesus sent His spirit to guide us into all truth. Are you saying that the Spirit failed?

What was said about the word?

Matt 24:35
Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

That Jesus statement leaves the order Bible first tradition second.

No, I am sorry bud, but Jesus’ words existed prior to the Bible, and the NT was written from His Word that was entrusted to the Church. Jesus never intended that His Word be confined to the Scripture. This statement says nothing abou the primacy of scripture.

Do you know where you got you bible?

 

[guanophore]

You are a joy to behold!!!
God Bless ya!

Thank you!

I notice you again avoided all my questions. Why is that?

I’m going to try and get this back on topic - for any NEW posters that might like to add their (name removed by moderator)ut.

I’m just posting the question!

(And going to sit back and read the responses from everyone).

In view of the following prayer made by the Pope - the question is: if the Apostles were standing there beside him, to whom would they point him too - when he prayed " we will not know to whom to turn"…Mary…or Jesus?

POMPEII, Italy, OCT. 19, 2008 (Zenit.org).- Benedict XVI placed the world in Mary’s hands during his one-day visit to the shrine of Our Lady of the Rosary in Pompeii, near Naples.

The Pope’s leading of the Supplication of the Blessed Virgin of the Rosary, a prayer written by Blessed Bartolo Longo (1841-1926) was one of the high points of this 12th pastoral trip in Italy.

“We implore you to have pity today on the nations that have gone astray, on all Europe, on the whole world, that they might repent and return to your heart,” the text of the prayer reads.

With the words of Bartolo, the Pontiff turned to Mary, saying: "If you will not help us because we are ungrateful and unworthy children of your protection, we will not know to whom to turn."

I will give you one of your own responses in return. We answered your questions, you just did not like the answers.

Now, what is it in you that compels you to criticize and find fault with the private prayer life of others?

See you guys, do you see how Leeann is proud and full of herself and doesn't really care about Jesus' real teachings?

Do you think it is pride? I have seen many posts stating she is very self satisfied with her faith, and does not need anything. I pointed out that it belies the statement that she is here trying to tear down the faith of others…does not seem like an expression of a satisfied person to me.

I also noticed she did not answer my questions.

As far as the Teachings, I think she has convinced herself that there are not any that she cannot see in her bible.

I could ask any Catholic on here whom they worship and none will say Mary, rather Jesus. I don’t see the point of this thread. If Leeann is trying to make a case for idolatry she couldn’t be more wrong. Mary helps lead us to Jesus, why does Leeann have such a problem with this?

People that have issues with our Blessed Theotokos often also have problems with authority. Some have been wounded by unjust actions of people in authority, and become hardened against accepting it. I have found since coming to CAF that many people who have trouble with Mary have a wounded relationship with their own earthly mother, or another mother figure, and it prevents them from accepting Christ’s gift of His mother to the Church. Whatever the case, this is not a battle of flesh and blood (or words) but spiritual,a nd prayer is the best weapon to use.

Obviously Leeann is compelled to be here to work out something gnawing inside. Let us pray that she can do this.

 

[guanophore]

How do you read the Bible in the dark.

Everyone who reads it understands it in the light of their own perceptions and learning (or lack thereof). As Jesus said, when the eye (perception) is dark how great is the darkness! Some people read the scripture with a darkened perception, so there are some things they cannot see.

Dont get me wrong here I have questions about other churches teachings also, one of them is I dont believe the 7 year tribulation interpretation. Jesus wants a personal relationship with you, he wants to reveal himself to you. He uses his word to do that.

I will agree that the Word of the Lord is a great asset in knowing HIm. Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ. However, we also know Him through His life in the church.

Lets say you had a dangerous piece of equipment that could cost you your life if you misused it. It has complete and unerring instructions.

Sorry, bud. Here is where your analogy falls through. The scripture was never intended to provide "complete and unerring instructions. If it were, then Jesus would have just commisioned books, or written them Himself, instead of building a Church.

In stead of reading and carefully understanding for your own safety, you choose to listen to someone that has not proved and tested his machine ether. All of us have unproven machines until we stand before Christ. Are you going to chance standing before God and say, I didnt read the instructions I chose to listened to the church and its traditions?

You are making an inaccurate comparison. The sacred tradition of the Church is completely reliable because it comes from the same Source and the Bible. However, I will agree that that everyone is responsible to read and follow the directions that are given!

You like many others are much more comfortable believing what people say rather than looking for yourself.

I know there are a lot of people like this. I used to be one, which is why I left the Church for so many years. In looking, I found my way back, thanks be to God. However, I learned much later that what the “people” had been saying was right all along, I was just not ready to listen.

I would say that all people that dont believe in Jesus, also dont believe the bible. You and non believers have a lot in common. Your faith must have started with tradition and has continued.

This may be. Catholicism is not a “religion of the book”.

The Bible and nothing but the Bible.

Really? where did you find THAT in your bible?

In the old testament when was God displeased with Israel?
It was when they chose to disregard his word and listen to the neighbors. Listening to tradition that has no biblical reference is shaky ground. And rejecting Gods word is even more dangerous.

You are again erroneously confining God’s word to the scripture. However, I agree that rejecting God’s word is dangerous.

 

[onenow1]

Hi, All

Thoughts for the day from St. Joseph’s daily missal.

As Christmas is not far away, we realize Mary is not far from giving birth to her Divine Son, the most precious gift to mankind Christ Himself. As Mary interceded for the Bridegroom at Cana, she will also intercedes for us unceasingly.

Imprimatur:Francis Cardnal Spellman : 1953.

Peace,onenow1

 

[guanophore]

Are you fully trained as a bible scholar and theologian to understand what the writers of the bible were intending?
Or do you just wing it?
I myself have takes only a few scripture and theology classes through the archdiocese, plus listening to several CD’s by Scott Hahn on his bible study classes he teaches in college. I have read the bible maybe 30 - 50 times, well, I should put it, read it maybe 5 times, and listened to it when I drive my truck on my route the rest of the times. For example, I drive around 8 hours a night, and will listen to the book of Romans about 3-4 times a night, trying to hear the whole book in context. I will do this day after day, until I feel like I could almost repeat it from memory, then I will go back to my Navarre bible commentary and re read it especially looking up passages where I had questions in my listening that week. I then spend my two hours at adoration each week praying and reading to gain the knowledge God wants to impart on me.
Just because I agree with the Catholic church doesn’t mean I don’t understand the bible, or accept the church magisterium automatically, though I will submit to the church when it’s teaching is different than mine. I suppose the appostles also submitted to Jesus when their understanding of scripture differed than theirs.

Good for you! I wish every Catholic would do this. We could reclaim the world, starting with the US!

 

[justasking4]

Are you fully trained as a bible scholar and theologian to understand what the writers of the bible were intending?
Or do you just wing it?
I myself have takes only a few scripture and theology classes through the archdiocese, plus listening to several CD’s by Scott Hahn on his bible study classes he teaches in college. I have read the bible maybe 30 - 50 times, well, I should put it, read it maybe 5 times, and listened to it when I drive my truck on my route the rest of the times. For example, I drive around 8 hours a night, and will listen to the book of Romans about 3-4 times a night, trying to hear the whole book in context. I will do this day after day, until I feel like I could almost repeat it from memory, then I will go back to my Navarre bible commentary and re read it especially looking up passages where I had questions in my listening that week. I then spend my two hours at adoration each week praying and reading to gain the knowledge God wants to impart on me.
Just because I agree with the Catholic church doesn’t mean I don’t understand the bible, or accept the church magisterium automatically, though I will submit to the church when it’s teaching is different than mine. I suppose the appostles also submitted to Jesus when their understanding of scripture differed than theirs.

So in all of your study of the Scriptures where do we see anyone in Scripture pointing to Mary as some kind savior for the world as the pope prayed?