Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him ..Mary or Jesus?

[Leeann]

Hi, Leeann

Question : Mary, was the only one in scripture that God asks for consent from a person and it happens to be Blessed Mary. What are your thoughts on this ?

Peace, onenow1

Where in scripture does God “ask consent” from Mary?

Douay Rheims (online)

Luke 1

**26 And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God **into a city of Galilee, called Nazareth,
27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary.
**28 **And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
**29 **Who having heard, was troubled at his saying, and thought with herself what manner of salutation this should be.
30 And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God.
31 Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and **shalt bring forth **a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus.
**32 **He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the most High; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father; and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever.
**33 **And of his kingdom there shall be no end.
**34 **And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man?
**35 **And the angel answering, said to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the most High **shall overshadow **thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
36 And behold thy cousin Elizabeth, she also hath conceived a son in her old age; and this is the sixth month with her that is called barren:
**37 **Because no word shall be impossible with God.
38 And Mary said: Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done to me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

 

[onenow1]

Where in scripture does God “ask consent” from Mary?

Here, Luke 1:38 And Mary said: Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done to me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

Quote=onenow1. Mary could have disobeyed just as Eve did.

Please Note these passages from Luke1. RE: Zechari’ah

11 And there appeared to him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense.
12 And Zechari’ah was troubled when he saw him, and fear fell upon him.
13 But the angel said to him, “Do not be afraid, Zechari’ah, for your prayer is heard], and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall call his name John.
14 And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth;
15 for he will be great before the Lord, and he shall drink no wine nor strong drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb.
16 And he will turn many of the sons of Israel to the Lord their God,
17 and he will go before him in the spirit and power of Eli’jah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready for the Lord a people prepared.”
18 And Zechari’ah said to the angel, “How shall I know this? For I am an old man, and my wife is advanced in years.”
19 And the angel answered him, “I am Gabriel, who stand in the presence of God; and I was sent to speak to you, and to bring you this good news.
20 And behold, you will be silent and unable to speak until the day that these things come to pass, because you did not believe my words, which will be fulfilled in their time.”

His prayer was heard yet he did not trust the words of God, opposite Mary’s Fiat.

Peace, onenow1

 

[AshleyBelle]

Or could it be the answer cannot satisfy me, because it can’t be proven by the Catholic Church where Jesus or the Apostles ever taught or preached about Mary…at all….due to the fact that it’s ALL about JESUS?

It is because of GOD that any of us have the Bible….His plan…His Will……

It is Christ that is the sole rule and authority on ALL matters…above all principalities and powers….His Body of true and faithful believers is HIS Church….wherever they may worship.

If Christ or the Apostles taught that Mary was “the mother of all Christians”…then I would accept and believe it….if Christ or the Apostles taught that we should go to/through Mary in prayer in order to “get better service” or “to conjole Him into answering out prayers” ……then I would accept and believe it……if Christ or the Apostles taught that Mary and Jesus were inseparable and that Mary played(s) such a significant role in our salvation that without her “assent” we would all be lost forever……I would accept and believe it……but they didn’t ….these things were never preached or taught by them in their pure gospel message for the salvation of all mankind….as they aren’t “necessary”.

And that’s the “Truth”.

Trusting the church doesn’t “take away” or detract from trusting God… We are only able to trust the church BECAUSE of God! Because of His promise to guide the church into all truth…His promise that He would be with us until the end of the age. The church is not an authority of her own accord. She is not infallible because of the people in the church. All of us are fallible, even the pope is a fallible man. He is bound by the same command of Christ, “to love the Lord your God, with all your heart with all your soul and all your strength.” It is because of faith in God that we can trust the church.

In today’s world it’s hard to accept that “one” authority could be the true church… But you have to remember it is NOT the people we trust… it is the Holy Spirit! It is Christ’s promise to us, and it is Christ who still guides and directs the church to this day…through the apostles and their successors

 

[East_Anglican]

Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him …Mary or Jesus?

The fact that she was in the upper room on
Penticost and Peter never mentioned her once in his sermon is a pretty good indicater that the Apostles would point to Jesus and not his mother.

The fact that she is never mentioned in The NT after Acts chapter 2 and Jesus is, is another indication that they would point to Jesus and not Mary.

 

[guanophore]

And all generations do call her blessed…just not in the same way the Catholic Church teaches.

Where? Where in the gospel message that Jesus preached and taught and sent out His Apostles to preach and teach is Mary preached???

Mary is contained in all four of the gospels, known to the early Christians as “the memoirs of the Apostles”. Everything in the gospels and letters of the NT is distilled from the preaching (kerygma) of the Apostles.

Or could it be the answer cannot satisfy me,

Clearly this does seem to be the case. However, blessed are those who hunger, for they shall be fed!

because it can’t be proven by the Catholic Church where Jesus or the Apostles ever taught or preached about Mary…at all….due to the fact that it’s ALL about JESUS?

This is amazing, coming from a person who clearly accepts the NT as evidence (in fact maybe the sole, or at least the primary) of what was taught by the Apostles. Since the books of the NT contain Mary as part of the Sacred History of the Church, what more proof could one need? I mean, it is right there in front of your eyes!

It is because of GOD that any of us have the Bible….His plan…His Will……

I agree, as it is His will that the Catholic Church was founded, and by His will and His spirit it has been preserved. It was by His will that Mary should have such a role in salvation history.

It is Christ that is the sole rule and authority on ALL matters…above all principalities and powers….His Body of true and faithful believers is HIS Church….wherever they may worship.

It is very Catholic of you to say this.

If Christ or the Apostles taught that Mary was “the mother of all Christians”…then I would accept and believe it….

Then may it be so for you, according to His will. :byzsoc:

I am curious, what do you think Jesus meant when He said that HIs disciples would have many more mothers, brothers, sisters, etc?

if Christ or the Apostles taught that we should go to/through Mary in prayer in order to “get better service” or “to conjole Him into answering out prayers” ……then I would accept and believe it……if Christ or the Apostles taught that Mary and Jesus were inseparable and that Mary played(s) such a significant role in our salvation that without her “assent” we would all be lost forever……I would accept and believe it……but they didn’t

None of the members of the Body of Christ who have been perfected can be separated from Him. I am surprised you would say such a thing, since this is so clear in scripture.

Mary consented to bear the Son of God into the world. In this, God made her an inseparable part of salvation history. Why separate her now?

….these things were never preached or taught by them in their pure gospel message for the salvation of all mankind….as they aren’t “necessary”.

I think such statements are a reflection of the Protestant Reformation fruit of dividing and separating, a fruit which continues to grow with great flourish today, just as it began abou t500 years ago. It seems that one of the tendencies is to distill a “readers digest” version of “gospel” so that it can be sqeezed into a sentence or two. Do you think that any of what Paul taught in the Temple of Tyrannus for two years is not part of the Gospel? Do you think, every day for two whole years, he failed in his calling from God to preach the gospel?

I will agree with you that it is possible to be saved on the readers digest version. However, why settle for it?

 

[Leeann]

Originally posted by onenow1:
**

Question : Mary, was the only one in scripture that God asks for consent from a person and it happens to be Blessed Mary. What are your thoughts on this ?

Peace, onenow1**

Leeann:
Where in scripture does God “ask consent” from Mary?

onenow1:

Here, Luke 1:38

“And Mary said: Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done to me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.”

Mary could have disobeyed just as Eve did.

Please Note these passages from

Luke1. RE: Zechari’ah

11 And there appeared to him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense.
12 And Zechari’ah was troubled when he saw him, and fear fell upon him.
13 But the angel said to him, “Do not be afraid, Zechari’ah, for your prayer is heard, and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall call his name John.
14 And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth;
15 for he will be great before the Lord, and he shall drink no wine nor strong drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb.
16 And he will turn many of the sons of Israel to the Lord their God,
17 and he will go before him in the spirit and power of Eli’jah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready for the Lord a people prepared.”
18 And Zechari’ah said to the angel, “How shall I know this? For I am an old man, and my wife is advanced in years.”
19 And the angel answered him, “I am Gabriel, who stand in the presence of God; and I was sent to speak to you, and to bring you this good news.
20 And behold, you will be silent and unable to speak until the day that these things come to pass, **because you did not believe my words, which will be fulfilled in their time.” **

His prayer was heard yet he did not trust the words of God, opposite Mary’s Fiat.

Yes – Zacharias’ “prayer” was heard.

He had been *praying *– and when the angel came and told him that his prayer had been heard and that his wife would bear a son – Zacharias questioned this “answer to prayer” .

Notice that the angel used the same reference of speech as he did when speaking to Mary – the angel stated what was going to happen – it WAS going to happen – the angel struck him mute **for his disbelief that God was answering his prayer **–the angel didn’t say “okay, since you don’t believe and have questioned, your wife won’t have a son.”

God’s Will was going to be fulfilled…no matter what.

In the same manner – the angel didn’t “ask for Mary’s consent” – as you state in your original question above - he told Mary what was going to happen.

Her original response was similar in way of that of Zacharias’ – she said, “How shall this be done, because I know not man?”

Where was Mary’s faith and belief then?

Mary had been told that she had “found grace with God” by Gabriel as soon as the angel arrived, the ‘*cards were already stacked’ *in Mary’s favor as they say
and this is evidenced when she asked a similar question and it did not draw the same response or action from the angel that Zacharias’ did….instead……Mary’s question drew more detailed information from Gabriel about the plan that God was going to put into affect – including the words
“Because no word shall be impossible with God.”

The fact that Mary heard and took Gabriel’s last sentence to heart, as well as the fact that she had already been told that she had “found grace with God”, must have had some affect on her own personal lack of faith or disbelief that she had exhibited during those first few moments for her response was ….”be it done to me according to thy word”.

There was no “request for Mary’s consent” – Mary was told what was going to happen.

And the angel departed from her.

I’m very happy, for her sake, that she responded in that way, or she most probably would have ended up “mute”…….but God’s plan and Will….would have been done, regardless of her response.

Luke 1:

30 And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God.
31 Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the most High; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father; and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever. 33 And of his kingdom there shall be no end. 34 And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man? 35 And the angel answering, said to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
36 And behold thy cousin Elizabeth, she also hath conceived a son in her old age; and this is the sixth month with her that is called barren: 37 Because no word shall be impossible with God. 38 And Mary said: Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done to me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

 

[Leeann]

Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him …Mary or Jesus?

The fact that she was in the upper room on
Penticost and Peter never mentioned her once in his sermon is a pretty good indicater that the Apostles would point to Jesus and not his mother.

The fact that she is never mentioned in The NT after Acts chapter 2 and Jesus is, is another indication that they would point to Jesus and not Mary.

I agree. Thanks for your posting.

 

[guanophore]

 Yes – Zacharias’ “prayer” was heard.

He had been *praying *– and when the angel came and told him that his prayer had been heard and that his wife would bear a son – Zacharias questioned this “answer to prayer” .

Notice that the angel used the same reference of speech as he did when speaking to Mary – the angel stated what was going to happen – it WAS going to happen – the angel struck him mute **for his disbelief that God was answering his prayer **–the angel didn’t say “okay, since you don’t believe and have questioned, your wife won’t have a son.”

God’s Will was going to be fulfilled…no matter what.

Ultimately, yes, but each person chooses whether they wish to be a participant in His plan. If satan had His way, Jesus would have been ripped from His mother’s womb, just as one in four babies are in the US today. It would not have been fulfilled in the particular manner in which He did fulfill it.

 In the same manner – the angel didn’t “ask for Mary’s consent” – as you state in your original question above - he *told Mary what was going to happen*.

Her original response was similar in way of that of Zacharias’ – she said, “How shall this be done, because I know not man?”

Where was Mary’s faith and belief then?

As always, completely in God. Mary was not confused that it would happen, but “how”. It never occurred to her that the conception would not involve a man. She had made a perpetual vow of virginity, so she was confused about the “how”.

 Mary had been told that she had “found grace with God” by Gabriel as soon as the angel arrived, the ‘*cards were already stacked’ *in Mary’s favor as they say  and this is evidenced when she asked a similar question and it did not draw the same response or action from the angel that Zacharias’ did….instead…..Mary’s question drew more detailed information from Gabriel about the plan that God was going to put into affect – including the words

“Because no word shall be impossible with God.”

The fact that Mary heard and took Gabriel’s last sentence to heart, as well as the fact that she had already been told that she had “found grace with God”, must have had some affect on her own personal lack of faith or disbelief that she had exhibited during those first few moments for her response was ….”be it done to me according to thy word”.

It is very Catholic of you to say this!

There was no “request for Mary’s consent” – Mary was told what was going to happen.

And the angel departed from her.

I’m very happy, for her sake, that she responded in that way, or she most probably would have ended up “mute”…….but God’s plan and Will….would have been done, regardless of her response.

Are you saying that Mary did not have a choice? I agree that God’s will shall be accomplished, even if we choose not to participate.

 

[ron77nyc]

Of course it doesn’t – but dialogue is not “paying homage to other gods” in a place that is reserved for the Christian God.

I think maybe ron77nyc is ‘having us on’….’joking around’ maybe!?!

I’m not joking around. I’m just showing you the reason for my saying “the Church is trying to establish a common ground with the Hindus and Muslims.” I never said I agree with what they are doing. The ewtn article shows there is a petition for the Pope to make an infallible statement about the 5th Marian Dogma. I think it’s all wrong. Apostolic teaching is the teaching of the apostles. They proclaimed Jesus. They proclaimed a clear and simple gospel. This is what the bishops and the Pope should be doing.

 

[ron77nyc]

This is not surprising. Mary is eternally saying “do whatever He tells you”. Those who are devoted to Mary cannot go wrong so long as they follow her instruction. If they, like she, say to Him “let it be done to me according to Thy will” they will be in the center of His will always.

does this bother you?

I notice that you did not include the answer to this? Could it be because the Eastern Church shares Catholic beliefs on this point? In fact, I think that this is the best evidence that this doctrine does not emanate from the pagan roman pantheon. If it did, it would never have flourished and grown in parts of the world totally separated from the pagan roman cults.

I am curious to learn if you disagree with this.

Does this bother you?

The only reason I didn't include that answer is because the article was too long and I had to cut paragraphs to make it fit but I did include the link for anyone who wanted to read the whole thing.

It's all out of balance. There is nothing wrong with devotion to the Blessed Mother but now it's at the point where no one is preaching the gospel anymore except the Protestants. The Catholic Church has the whole truth but they keep it in the back of a closet on the bottom shelf in the basement. Of course if you want to find it you can but it's the job of the Church leaders to explain what's important. The most important is Jesus. Without Him we are just another religion trying to save ourselves.

Apostolic teaching is the New Testament.

  2 Cor11:3 But I fear lest, as the serpent seduced Eve by his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted, and fall from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Christ, whom we have not preached; or if you receive another Spirit, whom you have not received; or another gospel which you have not received; you might well bear with him.

Now I'm not saying that the Blessed Mother is another Christ but it cetainly appears that many prominent Church leaders are trying to make another Christ.

Didn’t Jesus say, “If I be lifted up I will draw all things to myself?” “Come to me all who labor and are heavy laden and I will give you rest.”
I think the Monsignor at the Fatima Shrine needs a good refresher couse in the Bible just like when they give someone driver's ed when he has too many accidents.

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
And all generations do call her blessed…just not in the same way the Catholic Church teaches.

Where? Where in the gospel message that Jesus preached and taught and sent out His Apostles to preach and teach is Mary preached???

**guanophore: **
Mary is contained in all four of the gospels, known to the early Christians as “the memoirs of the Apostles”. Everything in the gospels and letters of the NT is distilled from the preaching (kerygma) of the Apostles.

Where is Mary “preached or taught about” in the “gospel message” by Jesus or the Apostles?
Where does Jesus or the Apostles preach/teach that belief in Mary’s “holiness/sinlessness/et al” and intercession to/through Mary is necessary for the salvation of all mankind or even of any benefit to a believers spiritual wellbeing or “closeness” to Jesus?

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
Or could it be the answer cannot satisfy me,
because it can’t be proven by the Catholic Church where Jesus or the Apostles ever taught or preached about Mary…at all….due to the fact that it’s ALL about JESUS?

guanophore:
This is amazing, coming from a person who clearly accepts the NT as evidence (in fact maybe the sole, or at least the primary) of what was taught by the Apostles. Since the books of the NT contain Mary as part of the Sacred History of the Church, what more proof could one need? I mean, it is right there in front of your eyes!

Well unless the books of the NT that is part of the “Sacred History of the Church” have somehow changed -
they still don’t have any record of Jesus or the Apostles preaching or teaching about Mary.

Originally Posted by Leeann
If Christ or the Apostles taught that Mary was “the mother of all Christians”…then I would accept and believe it….

guanophore:
Then may it be so for you, according to His will.

I am curious, what do you think Jesus meant when He said that HIs disciples would have many more mothers, brothers, sisters, etc?

Help me out here – I don’t know what you are referring too…any reference available?

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
if Christ or the Apostles taught that we should go to/through Mary in prayer in order to “get better service” or “to conjole Him into answering out prayers” ……then I would accept and believe it……if Christ or the Apostles taught that Mary and Jesus were inseparable and that Mary played(s) such a significant role in our salvation that without her “assent” we would all be lost forever……I would accept and believe it……but they didn’t

guanophore:
None of the members of the Body of Christ who have been perfected can be separated from Him. I am surprised you would say such a thing, since this is so clear in scripture.

And so is this:

**Ephesians 1: (Duoay Rheims)

17 **That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and of revelation, in the knowledge of him: **18 The eyes of your heart enlightened, that you may know what the hope is of the glory of his inheritance in the saints. 19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power towards us, who believe according to the operation of the might of his power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, raising him up from the dead, and setting him on his right hand in the heavenly places. 21 **Above all **principality, and power, and virtue, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come. 22 And he hath subjected all things **under his feet, and hath made **him head over all the church, 23 Which is his body, and the fulness of him who is filled all in all. **

 

[Leeann]

(cont’d)

guanophore:
Mary consented to bear the Son of God into the world. In this, God made her an inseparable part of salvation history. Why separate her now?

Who says I separate her from the salvation history?
I just don’t exalt her to the extent that the Catholic Church has done.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
….these things were never preached or taught by them in their pure gospel message for the salvation of all mankind….as they aren’t “necessary”.

guanophore:
I think such statements are a reflection of the Protestant Reformation fruit of dividing and separating, a fruit which continues to grow with great flourish today, just as it began abou t500 years ago. It seems that one of the tendencies is to distill a “readers digest” version of “gospel” so that it can be sqeezed into a sentence or two. Do you think that any of what Paul taught in the Temple of Tyrannus for two years is not part of the Gospel? Do you think, every day for two whole years, he failed in his calling from God to preach the gospel?

I don’t believe that Paul ever failed in preaching or teaching or exhorting what he was commissioned to do by Jesus – to preach/teach/ the “gospel message” and to baptize in the name of the Father/the Son/the Holy Spirit. He did that during his two year stay at Tyrannus. And without once, mentioning Mary.

guanophore:
I will agree with you that it is possible to be saved on the readers digest version. However, why settle for it?

In your own words….“that’s very Catholic of you”….

If you choose to consider the gospel message of the shed blood of our Savior and Lord Jesus Christ as a “readers digest version” and that it is not worth settling for or that there is not enough sufficiency in it for you to be able to enter into His presence…that’s your choice.

My question is why is there a need to settle for anything else?

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
Of course it doesn’t – but dialogue is not “paying homage to other gods” in a place that is reserved for the Christian God.

I think maybe ron77nyc is ‘having us on’….’joking around’ maybe!?!

ron77nyc:

I’m not joking around. I’m just showing you the reason for my saying “the Church is trying to establish a common ground with the Hindus and Muslims.” I never said I agree with what they are doing. The ewtn article shows there is a petition for the Pope to make an infallible statement about the 5th Marian Dogma. I think it’s all wrong. Apostolic teaching is the teaching of the apostles. They proclaimed Jesus. They proclaimed a clear and simple gospel. This is what the bishops and the Pope should be doing.

I apologise ron77nyc - I read the articles that you posted and their content….I guess they just
seemed so bizarre, that I then wondered if it was something that was just being “planted” here.

I really do appreciate you bringing them to our attention.

I am in agreement with your viewpoint with regards to what the Catholic church and all churches should be doing.

God Bless!

 

[AshleyBelle]

If you choose to consider the gospel message of the shed blood of our Savior and Lord Jesus Christ as a “readers digest version” and that it is not worth settling for or that there is not enough sufficiency in it for you to be able to enter into His presence…that’s your choice.

My question is why is there a need to settle for anything else?

You are again making false assumptions about the Catholic faith. As long as you continue to believe that we don’t think Christ’s sacrifice is “worth settling for” nothing we have to say is going to matter to you.

 

[Protestant101]

I think such statements are a reflection of the Protestant Reformation fruit of dividing and separating, a fruit which continues to grow with great flourish today, just as it began abou t500 years ago.

I will agree with you that it is possible to be saved on the readers digest version. However, why settle for it?

There is only one version of being saved, no matter what Church you are in. Where have you been?

 

[AshleyBelle]

I posted this earlier on your thread… But I’m linking it again.

Can you read that and honestly tell me Catholics don’t think “Jesus’s sacrifice is enough?”

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=282282

Everything that the church teaches…everything we believe, is centered around Christ. All of our prayers, devotions and traditions, exist to enable us to LIVE our lives for Christ. They help us understand His “gospel message” and they fill our lives with a living, breathing faith in Him.

It is not enough to “just believe” in Christ. Even the demons believe. What we must do is LIVE for Christ. I will pray to His mother because she is a gift from God. The church is a gift from God. Christ’s birth, death, ressurection, and ascension is a gift from God. I will accept all of His gifts, because while I may not think I “need” more than to believe… I will TRUST that He knows much better than I do, what my heart really needs. He knows what I need to best LIVE my faith in devotion to Him.

So tell me…can you read that and still believe that Catholics do not put Christ and His “gospel message” at the center of our faith?

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
Yes – Zacharias’ “prayer” was heard.

He had been praying – and when the angel came and told him that his prayer had been heard and that his wife would bear a son – Zacharias questioned this “answer to prayer” .

Notice that the angel used the same reference of speech as he did when speaking to Mary – the angel stated what was going to happen – it WAS going to happen – the angel struck him mute for his disbelief that God was answering his prayer –the angel didn’t say “okay, since you don’t believe and have questioned, your wife won’t have a son.”

God’s Will was going to be fulfilled…no matter what.

guanophore:
Ultimately, yes, but each person chooses whether they wish to be a participant in His plan. If satan had His way, Jesus would have been ripped from His mother’s womb, just as one in four babies are in the US today. It would not have been fulfilled in the particular manner in which He did fulfill it.

Are you saying that satan is more powerful than God?

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
In the same manner – the angel didn’t “ask for Mary’s consent” – as you state in your original question above - he told Mary what was going to happen.

Her original response was similar in way of that of Zacharias’ – she said, “How shall this be done, because I know not man?”

Where was Mary’s faith and belief then?

guanophore:
As always, completely in God. Mary was not confused that it would happen, but “how”. It never occurred to her that the conception would not involve a man. She had made a perpetual vow of virginity, so she was confused about the “how”.

What makes you think that Mary was not confused?
She was “troubled” right from the moment of Gabriels greeting, he had to tell her not to be “afraid”.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
Mary had been told that she had “found grace with God” by Gabriel as soon as the angel arrived, the ‘cards were already stacked’ in Mary’s favor as they say and this is evidenced when she asked a similar question and it did not draw the same response or action from the angel that Zacharias’ did….instead……Mary’s question drew more detailed information from Gabriel about the plan that God was going to put into affect – including the words
“Because no word shall be impossible with God.”

The fact that Mary heard and took Gabriel’s last sentence to heart, as well as the fact that she had already been told that she had “found grace with God”, must have had some affect on her own personal lack of faith or disbelief that she had exhibited during those first few moments for her response was ….”be it done to me according to thy word”.

guanophore:
It is very Catholic of you to say this!

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
There was no “request for Mary’s consent” – Mary was told what was going to happen.

And the angel departed from her.

I’m very happy, for her sake, that she responded in that way, or she most probably would have ended up “mute”…….but God’s plan and Will….would have been done, regardless of her response.

guanophore:
Are you saying that Mary did not have a choice?

My response that you’ve quoted above – was in direct response to a poster saying that “God asked/requested Mary….’ - I was explaining the difference….God never asked Mary for her consent to His plan – God sent an angel to “tell” Mary what His plan was and “how” it was going to unfold…regardless of her consent.

Mary had a choice – what I’m saying is that considering the information Gabriel gave to her, about her being “favored” and “no word shall be impossible with God” – those things most likely encouraged her a bit don’t you think – enabling her to make that choice.

guanophore:
I agree that God’s will shall be accomplished, even if we choose not to participate.

It is very Christian of you to say this!

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[justasking4]

guanophore;4399698]Mary is contained in all four of the gospels, known to the early Christians as “the memoirs of the Apostles”. Everything in the gospels and letters of the NT is distilled from the preaching (kerygma) of the Apostles.

Actually all that we know of Mary is found only in the NT with most of it being in the Gospels. What we don’t find there are these Marian dogmas.

Clearly this does seem to be the case. However, blessed are those who hunger, for they shall be fed!

This is amazing, coming from a person who clearly accepts the NT as evidence (in fact maybe the sole, or at least the primary) of what was taught by the Apostles. Since the books of the NT contain Mary as part of the Sacred History of the Church, what more proof could one need? I mean, it is right there in front of your eyes!

Proof is needed for her immaculate conception, assumption and her intercessory powers for starters. Can you provide?

I agree, as it is His will that the Catholic Church was founded, and by His will and His spirit it has been preserved. It was by His will that Mary should have such a role in salvation history.

Depends what you mean by her role. If you stay with the gospels we can agree. If you mean her role in the Catholic church then we have a problem…

It is very Catholic of you to say this.

Then may it be so for you, according to His will. :byzsoc:

I am curious, what do you think Jesus meant when He said that HIs disciples would have many more mothers, brothers, sisters, etc?

None of the members of the Body of Christ who have been perfected can be separated from Him. I am surprised you would say such a thing, since this is so clear in scripture.

Does this mean these memebers who have died can communicate with you?

Mary consented to bear the Son of God into the world. In this, God made her an inseparable part of salvation history. Why separate her now?

Because she plays no role as our intercessor since Scripture tells us that only the Lord Jesus has that role.

I think such statements are a reflection of the Protestant Reformation fruit of dividing and separating, a fruit which continues to grow with great flourish today, just as it began abou t500 years ago. It seems that one of the tendencies is to distill a “readers digest” version of “gospel” so that it can be sqeezed into a sentence or two. Do you think that any of what Paul taught in the Temple of Tyrannus for two years is not part of the Gospel? Do you think, every day for two whole years, he failed in his calling from God to preach the gospel?
I think we can safely say the gospel Paul taught and preached had nothing to do with Mary interceding. Correct?

I will agree with you that it is possible to be saved on the readers digest version. However, why settle for it?

 

[East_Anglican]

How could Peter forget Mary when she was in the upper room with him and the others?

Peter said that there is no other name under Heaven by which to be saved but the name of Jesus Christ. How could he have forgotten Jesus mother like that?

Paul said that he chose to know nothing but Christ crucified. How could he choose not to know Mary if she was so important? The Virgin birth didn’t seem that important to Paul!

Why didn’t Jesus mention his mother in Revelation if she is so important?

Jesus said “Ask anything in my name and I will do it.” Why didn’t he add “and you can ask my mother too.”?

If Mary was sinless what was she doing in the upper room anyway? If she was sinless she’d be the only person in existance that didn’t need a saviour.

You can poinder on these questions and discuss amongst yourselves now becuase I’m bored of this nonsenseDue to my conclusion of another question which is. What practical application can be applied to these doctrines of Mary that would help us feed Jesus when he is hungary and give Jesus a drink when he is thirsty? I conclude that we can’t.

 

[AshleyBelle]

How could Peter forget Mary when she was in the upper room with him and the others?

Peter said that there is no other name under Heaven by which to be saved but the name of Jesus Christ. How could he have forgotten Jesus mother like that?

Paul said that he chose to know nothing but Christ crucified. How could he choose not to know Mary if she was so important? The Virgin birth didn’t seem that important to Paul!

Why didn’t Jesus mention his mother in Revelation if she is so important?

Jesus said “Ask anything in my name and I will do it.” Why didn’t he add “and you can ask my mother too.”?

If Mary was sinless what was she doing in the upper room anyway? If she was sinless she’d be the only person in existance that didn’t need a saviour.

All of these questions have been answered time and again on here, but I will do my best to touch on them a litte

There is NO other name under heaven by which we may be saved, but Jesus! Amen! Mary does not save us… She points us to her son!

I’m not sure why you don’t think the virgin birth was important to Paul? Can you show me in the Bible where he says it’s not important?

Mary is mentioned in revelation. She is the woman in the heavens with a crown of twelve stars! This is why we give her the title “Queen of Heaven.”

We ask nothing “in Mary’s name.” We ask Mary to pray FOR us in Christ’s name. We ask for Mary’s help, through her Son Mary can do nothing of her own power…but only through the power of Christ working through her! Just as the power of Christ is manifest through us in our own lives when we live as He commanded…obediently and faithfully

And for your last point… Mary was “sinless” because of Jesus! She, just like us, was in need of a savior! She was saved, just like us, by the blood of Christ. God chose to bless her with this gift, from the moment of her conception! He saved her, before she ever chose sin!

You can poinder on these questions and discuss amongst yourselves now becuase I’m bored of this nonsenseDue to my conclusion of another question which is. What practical application can be applied to these doctrines of Mary that would help us feed Jesus when he is hungary and give Jesus a drink when he is thirsty? I conclude that we can’t

Mary teaches us how to love Jesus more perfectly! Because she is the perfect model of Christian love, obedience and faithfullness, we are to model her love of Christ in our own lives. This relationship helps us to see Christ in the hungry and thirsty of the world. It deepens our love for Christ, and thus deepens our love for Christ present in one another:)